08-26-2004, 04:51 PM
Salaam Alaikum!
Recently, I encountered a site by none other than the self-appointed Islamic "expert" Robert Spencer that directs it's attention at "Jihad" and those "Jihadi's." In a terse discussion on the Sharia and Law--I responded to a member who made the unsubstantiated claim that Muhammad (saw) 'invented' (his choice of wording) Allah. Another fellow member of the site felt the urge to respond to my repudiation. In such an attempt, he had to open some new bags of tricks by labeling me a Pakistani/Indian and a thirty-five-year-old Muslim--never mind that I claimed to be neither “Pakistani/Indian" nor thirty-five. Please notice how our "son of Moses" (his ID) drifted from the discussion. I guess this is indeed "conventional wisdom."
To view this dialogue please go here:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/002935.php
[My claim is that Allah (swt) is NOT an invention of Muhammad (saw). But I guess to some such is hard to believe even when the evidence smacks one square in the face]
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Ibn_Kumuna:
I believe such was a sign of moral bankruptcy and panic–which completely sickens me. One hopes that 'true' Muslims will come to the fore to repudiate such pernicious prattle.
Djinn'nSquirt made this statement:
Since Allah (created within the demented mind of Mohammed) apparently has no penchant for forgiveness, would they find themselves burning in Hell for eternity?
Even if one were to be intellectually lazy enough to believe that Muhammad 'invented' Allah, it seems almost hilarious one would believe such, Djinn'nSquirt, with the mine of evidence working against such a statement.
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SonofMoses:
ibn_kumuna35 said: Even if one were to be intellectually lazy enough to believe that Muhammad 'invented' Allah, it seems almost hilarious one would believe such, Djinn'nSquirt, with the mine of evidence working against such a statement
What's so difficult to believe about this??
There are plenty of people who have mental illness who believe they are in communication with God. The koran, as its written, is completely jumbled with no coherency in it. In fact many things prove it wasn't written by God.
Want proof? Here it is....
The Koran says one day of allah's time is like 1,000 years of a man's time
Qur'an22 :47
"And they will bid thee hasten on the Doom," - they are growing impatient Judgement day was meant to be soon.
"and Allah faileth not His promise" - don't worry God will keep His word.
"but lo! a Day with Allah is as a thousand years of what ye reckon." - what seems a long time to you is very short to God.
Now lets look at this logically and scientifically, which is supposedly what the koran is full of, logic and science. According to the koran, allah is perfect and all powerful, and the koran is his word. We also we learn from the koran that a day in allah's life is like a thousand years of a man's life.
According to islamic history the koran was revealed to mohammed over a 23 year period. If we do the math, 1 day of allah's time = 365,000 days of man's time. If we then use this ratio of 1:365,000 to see how long the koran took in allahs time to dictate, this would be 23 years or 8,395 days of man, and when we convert it to allahs time we divide the 8,395 by 365,000. This would leave us with 0.023 of a day of allah's time. This gives us the time in minutes which is 33,12.
In other words, while it took mohammed 23 years of his life to receive the koran, it only took allah 33 minutes of his time to dicate it. Now here is the problem. This supposedly "all powerful perfect being" kept changing his mind repeatedly because the tradition of the koran is that sometimes allah cancels one verse in favor of a better one. How can it be possible that a perfect being repeatedly changes his mind over the period of just 33 minutes???
Either allah is far from perfect, or mohammed was delusional, or both. You decide......
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DCWatson:
Since when does strapping a bomb to one's worthless carcass and blowing up innocent babies make one a martyr? Only the constant irrational thought process of barbarians would keep this type of ideal.
Oh Muslims, America and her allies are on the move. Soon freedom will be embraced by you, or you'll be surrounded by it and shunned for being too ignorant to live normal lives.
Muslim crazies thought we'd tuck tail and run......We're running alright, straight on to the path of worldwide freedom, free of non-bathing, toothless, illiterate Islamist racists.
We're on the move.....
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Ibn_Kumuna:
To Son of Moses
All you've been able to achieve in the two latest posts was to place anecdotes upon anecdotes.
Let me reinvent the wheel for the sake of convenience: Even if one were to be intellectually lazy enough to believe that Muhammad 'invented' Allah, it seems almost hilarious one would believe such, Djinn'nSquirt, with the mine of evidence working against such a statement
Again, there "is" no evidence that Muhammad invented Allah. What you could have done was provide me with rock inscriptional evidence or pre-Islamic Christian inscriptional phraseology to counter-punch me. Providing me with Quranic verses does not deal with a stint of what I raised. You wasted a lot of electronic space evading my assertion to Djinn'nSquirt by stuffing the house with Quranic verses.
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Ibn_Kumuna:
DCWatson says, "Since when does strapping a bomb to one's worthless carcass and blowing up innocent babies make one a martyr? Only the constant irrational thought process of barbarians would keep this type of ideal."
To respond to your question, there is never a point when a martyr is tantamount with a suicide bomber no matter what side of the prism one glances. Indeed, only a morally bereft fanatic could take an innocent life without a shred of empathy.
DCWatson says further, "Muslim crazies thought we'd tuck tail and run......We're running alright, straight on to the path of worldwide freedom, free of non-bathing, toothless, illiterate Islamist racists."
Oh come now. You were on the right track with the assertion above. However, there's no need to slip into abyss of obliviation with the last comment. No need to speak with relentless rage.
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SonofMoses:
ibn_kumuna35: You said:
"All you've been able to achieve in the two latest posts was to place anecdotes upon anecdotes."
What are you talking about man? There is nothing anecdotal about what I said. If Allah is a perfect being then he would not need to correct himself repeatedly in the space of 33 minutes. That is a contradiction of your god's characteristics. I presented a contradiction of fact, not an anecdote.
An anecdote is a short story, what I presented was the nature of what's written in the koran. If my repeating information thats contained in the koran is viewed by you as a short story, then you apparently must agree with me that the koran is fiction made up by mohammed.
Even if one were to be intellectually lazy enough to believe that Muhammad 'invented' Allah, it seems almost hilarious one would believe such, Djinn'nSquirt, with the mine of evidence working against such a statement
Interesting choice of words. How is it intellectually lazy to use one's brain and analyze information to arrive at a conclusion? Its a lot easier to simply memorize the koran and repeat it like a robot. In fact islam discourages free thought, so it sounds like you are projecting your state of mind on me.
Again, there "is" no evidence that Muhammad invented Allah.
That I actually agree with you on. Mohammed didnt actually invent allah. Allah was actually a pagan god that the arabs prayed to. I should have said mohammed invented his communications with allah. Wait, that might also be inaccurate as maybe he was in touch with a satanic figure who talked with him.
Indeed, only a morally bereft fanatic could take an innocent life without a shred of empathy.
Spoken like a true muslim
![[Image: smile.gif]](http://www.islamsms.com/bb/html/emoticons/smile.gif)
A Christian or Jew would have said. "Only a morally bereft fanatic could take an innocent life". FULL STOP. Its interesting how you didnt have an issue with the taking of an innocent's life, just with the lack of empathy while undertaking the murder of an innocent.Congratulations you passed the test. You are a good muslim!
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Ibn_kumuna:
SonofMoses states:
"What are you talking about man? There is nothing anecdotal about what I said. If Allah is a perfect being then he would not need to correct himself repeatedly in the space of 33 minutes. That is a contradiction of your god's characteristics. I presented a contradiction of fact, not an anecdote"
For the sake of brevity, I will only say that this is aberrant to where I was going.
SonofMoses states further:
"Interesting choice of words. How is it intellectually lazy to use one's brain and analyze information to arrive at a conclusion? It’s a lot easier to simply memorize the koran and repeat it like a robot. In fact islam discourages free thought, so it sounds like you are projecting your state of mind on me."
Again, brevity hinders me from going through the motions of a point-to-point response. However, with that said, it would be mechanical repetition to read the Quran, or any book for that matter, for the sheer sake of reading it. And as for the last statement, I have yet to put forth my state of mind.
SonofMoses:
"That I actually agree with you on. Mohammed didnt actually invent allah. Allah was actually a pagan god that the arabs prayed to. I should have said mohammed invented his communications with allah. Wait, that might also be inaccurate as maybe he was in touch with a satanic figure who talked with him."
That sounds like Christian polemics.
SonofMoses:
"Spoken like a true muslim
A Christian or Jew would have said. "Only a morally bereft fanatic could take an innocent life". FULL STOP. Its interesting how you didnt have an issue with the taking of an innocent's life, just with the lack of empathy while undertaking the murder of an innocent."Had a Christian or Jew said, "Only a morally bereft fanatic could take an innocent life,” I would have agreed with him/her completely. I'm not sure if you're meticulously picking on that statement alone or if you completely misunderstood what I had said,I certainly did not intend to sanction the killing of innocence by dressing it in a sugary coat of conciliatory wording.
Moreover, what is more interesting is the assumption I'm Muslim. Of course I do not deny that I am Muslim, but the assumption tickles me in the most intriguing way.
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SonofMoses:
Moreover, what is more interesting is the assumption I'm Muslim. Of course I do not deny that I am Muslim, but the assumption tickles me in the most intriguing way.
How do I know you are a muslim? Well its very simple.
1. In response to factual points, you are unable to address them. You instead respond with some nonsensical statement that never actually addresses my points, but waffles on and makes no sense whatsover. This allows you to respond, but really say nothing at all except to try and degrade what I said without actually providing a foundation.
2. You use the muslim name ibn_kumuna35
Ibn means "son of" in arabic. Son of Kumuna. I guess 35 is probably your age. And most likely you are an Indian or Pakistani because of your way of speaking. I would guess you are most likely an Indian muslim because Indian muslims tend to be more civil and less hostile than Pakistani muslims are.
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Ibn_Kumuna:
SonofMoses:
"In response to factual points, you are unable to address them. You instead respond with some nonsensical statement that never actually addresses my points, but waffles on and makes no sense whatsover. This allows you to respond, but really say nothing at all except to try and degrade what I said without actually providing a foundation."
Sarcastically speaking, I guess you won! Indeed, you sunk my battleship.
SonofMoses:
"Ibn means "son of" in arabic. Son of Kumuna. I guess 35 is probably your age. And most likely you are an Indian or Pakistani because of your way of speaking. I would guess you are most likely an Indian muslim because Indian muslims tend to be more civil and less hostile than Pakistani muslims are. "
This one had me rolling on the floor in hysterical laughter. Not only am I NOT Pakistani or Indian but I'm not 35. This just demonstrates the stupidity--nay insularity-- that is prevalent in the internet. I guess you'll just label it "conventional wisdom," right?
[P.S. Ibn Kumuna was a Medieval Baghdadi Jewish Philosopher]
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Ah-conventional "ignorance" indeed!
--Ibn