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Qutuz · 08-04-2004, 05:53 PM

sorry..the site which had the half nude girl pic was "Muslim wake up"....it was the book cover of Tantrika (a book by another Muslim reformist) and in this particular site you can read in their frontpage the following title "Muslims and Gay Marriage: Is a Loving Commitment Between Two People Such a Bad Thing?"...did Quran say anything about gays??? but hadiths did...Quran didn't!!!...then Gay Marriage is ok...according to the logic of those who denounce Hadith and i'm pretty sure they are doing so to legalize what God illegalized.

Lightuponlight · (This post was last modified: 08-05-2004, 07:03 AM by Muslimah.)

No, it is not allowed in Islam; didn't you read about the people of Lot?

"For ye practice your LUSTS ON MEN in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. 7-81

Shall I seek for a judge other than GOD, when HE it is WHO has sent down to you the BOOK FULLY DETAILED? And those to whom WE gave the Book know that it has been sent down from thy Lord with truth; so be thou not of those who doubt. 6-114

A.L.R., a Scripture whose verses were made firm, then DETAILED from One who is Wise, Expert. 11-1

A Scripture whose verses are DETAILED, a Quran in Arabic, for a people who know. 41-3

If you accept the above ayats, then you will stop trying to embarass yourself and to prove that the Quran is not detailed.

Qutuz · 08-04-2004, 06:30 PM

yes its not allowed but "Muslim wake up" website defend it....maybe they think that Lot people was punished because they were performing gay adultery while gay marriage is another thing.....no kidding....they can say anything.

Muslim wake up (like free-minds.org and progressive Islam) deny Hadiths too.

and now i need to hear your interpertions of the following verses

Our Lord! and raise up in them a Messenger from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.

002.129

what is "the wisdom" the prophet was supposed to teach us? is the Quran?? notice that "The Book" is already mentioned in the verse.

And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger and goes beyond His limits, He will cause him to enter fire to abide in it, and he shall have an abasing chastisement

004.014

so if you "disobey" the messenger "Prophet Mohammed (pbuh)" you will have abasing chastisement and the question is....is it fair if we have abasing chastisement cos of disobeying the Messenger commands which we are not supposed to follow according to your logic?

Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them.

"whoever"......any comments?

another question.....do u believe in praying 5 times a day..17 Rakkat?

Lightuponlight · (This post was last modified: 08-04-2004, 06:39 PM by Lightuponlight.)

Quote:Our Lord! and raise up in them a Messenger from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.
002.129

what is "the wisdom" the prophet was supposed to teach us? is the Quran?? notice that "The Book" is already mentioned in the verse.

Wisdom simply means wisdom. The Quran is full of wisdom.

There has already come to them recitals wherein there is (enough) to check; delivery of Wisdom (Hikmatun Balighatun) - but the preaching of warners profits them not.” (54:4-5)

This ayat talks about the delivery of Hikma, which is from THE BOOK OF GOD. Hence, this verse confirms that Hikma is from the Book and not from any outside sources.

Then in this verse, The God makes it clear that The Qur’an is the Hikma:

“These are of the Wisdom (al-Hikmati), which your Lord has revealed to you. And do not make with God another god, or you will be cast into Hell, blameworthy and regretting. (17:39).

“Alif Laam Ra. These are the Verses of the Book of Wisdom (Kitaab al-Hakeem)” (10:1)

“Alif Lam Mim. These are the Verses of the Book of Wisdom” (31:1-2)

“Ta Sin. By the Qur’an full of Wisdom” (36:1-2)

“We have made it a Qur’an in Arabic, so that you may use your Aqal. And verily it is in the Mother of The Book, in Our Presence, High, Full of Wisdom” (43:3-4)

These above Ayaat make it evident that Wisdom is an attribute of the Qur’an

Quote:And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger and goes beyond His limits, He will cause him to enter fire to abide in it, and he shall have an abasing chastisement
004.014

so if you "disobey" the messenger "Prophet Mohammed (pbuh)" you will have abasing chastisement and the question is....is it fair if we have abasing chastisement cos of disobeying the Messenger commands which we are not supposed to follow according to your logic?

Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them.

Please point out the ayat which says obeying the messenger = obeying bukhari et al.

Qutuz · 08-04-2004, 07:04 PM

1- the verse say (1)The Book AND (2) the wisdom...2 seperate sources

2- explain to me...how God order us not to disobey the prophet while we don't have this prophet commands? does it make sense??

3- and you didn't answer my question about Prayers and the 17 Rakkat per day.

Lightuponlight · 08-04-2004, 07:11 PM

Quote:1- the verse say (1)The Book AND (2) the wisdom...2 seperate sources

They are different aspects, but together from the same source. The ayats I gave you about wisdom being an attribute of the Quran refute your argument.

Quote:2- explain to me...how God order us not to disobey the prophet while we don't have this prophet commands? does it make sense??

I AM obeying his commands by obeying the BOOK that HE brought:

Say: "Come let me recite to you what your Lord Has forbidden for you: that you should not set-up anything with Him; and be kind to your parents; and do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is plain of it or subtle; and do not kill the soul which God Has forbidden, except by justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend. "And do not come near the money of the orphan, except for what is best, until he reached his maturity; and give honestly full measure and weight equitably. We do not burden a soul except by what it can bear, and if you speak then be just even if against a relative; and regarding the pledges made to God, you shall observe them. This He Has enjoined you that you may remember." 6:151-152

By staying away from what God prohibited THROUGH HIS MESSENGER, we are obeying the messenger. HE uttered the COMMANDS that were given to him by His Lord for US to obey.

God NEVER told us to obey what BUKHARI AND OTHERS said ABOUT Muhammad. He told us to obey the MESSENGER, and the Quran is the WORD the messenger uttered directly. Thus, we must obey that.

Quote:- and you didn't answer my question about Prayers and the 17 Rakkat per day.

Solaa, from my understanding, does not mean an up and down, 5x a day ritual prayer, but commitments/obligations/responsibilities.

Shall I seek for a judge other than GOD, when HE it is WHO has sent down to you the BOOK FULLY DETAILED? And those to whom WE gave the Book know that it has been sent down from thy Lord with truth; so be thou not of those who doubt. 6-114

A.L.R., a Scripture whose verses were made firm, then DETAILED from One who is Wise, Expert. 11-1

A Scripture whose verses are DETAILED, a Quran in Arabic, for a people who know. 41-3

If solaa really means ritual prayer, and if it was so significant, then, I think that, God would have given us the details of it in His DETAILED book.

THE_ICONOCLAST · (This post was last modified: 08-04-2004, 11:07 PM by THE_ICONOCLAST.)

Qutuz

*** they denounce Hadith and soon they will start denouncing some verses from the Quran***

Do you know this for a fact or is this your assumption? If you don't know it for a fact, then, you have just slandered us.

***they are not for Islam..they are for the west ***

Again, do you know this for a fact or is this your assumption? If you don't know it for a fact, then, you have just slandered us.

***these people are no different from secularists and communists and Zionists and Protestants and Nationlaists...but they maybe a bit more dangerous though.*** 

Once more, do you know this for a fact or is this your assumption? If you don't know it for a fact, then, you have just slandered us.

Now, do you know why Allah says..."say nothing of which you have no knowledge"?

Let me ask you this question, do you know/understand and accept the following ayat?

29.51 Is it not sufficient/enough 
for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Most surely there is mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe.

Qutuz · 08-04-2004, 11:09 PM

well......your source (which is one of the websites i mentioned earlier) prove what i said about the people who adopt this agenda of yours.

29.51 Is it not sufficient/enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Most surely there is mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe.

sure i do accept the ayat and i assume i understand it

now your turn....do you understand the following verse?

"Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them. "

and if the answer is yes then please tell me exactly what methods will you use to "obey the prophet" and what will be your guide lines?....do you even know what is prophet commands so you obey him?

Lightuponlight · 08-04-2004, 11:20 PM

Quote:"Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them. "
and if the answer is yes then please tell me exactly what methods will you use to "obey the prophet" and what will be your guide lines?....do you even know what is prophet commands so you obey him?

Main Entry: obey

1 : to follow the commands or guidance of

2 : to conform to or comply with <obey an order> <falling objects obey the laws of physics>

intransitive senses : to behave obediently

Since the messenger is not here with us, the only way to obey him is by obeying his MESSAGE, THE QURAN, THE WORD OF GOD. Muhammad UTTERED the word of God, therefore, we must obey him by obeying the word.

WHERE does it saying obeying the messenger = obeying bukhari and enterprise? DONT dodge this question.

WHERE does it say that, obeying the messenger = obeying what OTHERS THOUGHT THE MESSENGER SAID?

"And authenticating what is present with me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden to you; and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so be aware of God AND OBEY me." 3-50

Jesus also said to obey him. His people knew that it didn't mean following second and third hand narrations about him.

Aaron had already, before this said to them: "O my people! ye are being tested in this: for verily your Lord is (Allah) Most Gracious; so FOLLOW ME AND OBEY MY COMMAND." 20-90

Aaron said to follow him and obey him. His people also knew he didn't mean to follow ANY alleged sayings that were to be attributed to him after his death.

When their brother Noah said to them: "Will you not be righteous?""I am to you a trustworthy messenger.""So be aware of God AND OBEY ME." 26:106-108

Same here. Obeying the Messenger, once again, has NOTHING to do with ANY ALLEGED sayings, period.

Qutuz · (This post was last modified: 08-04-2004, 11:51 PM by Qutuz.)

one sin lead to another and a Bida`a lead to another.

so Quran is the word of God....not the commands of prophet Mohammed...get your facts straight.

here is another verse for u

What God has bestowed on His Apostle (and taken away) from the people of the townships, belongs to God, to His Apostle and to kindred and orphans, the needy and the wayfarer; in order that it may not (merely) make a circuit between the wealthy among you. So take what the Apostle assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear God; for God is strict in Punishment. 59:7

another verse, another CLEAR order to obey the prophet commands which is simply named Hadith.

p.s: what is the complete name of Imam Al Bukhari which we dellusional Ahl Al Sunna wla Jamaa worship as you claim?

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