No Compulsion in Islam?

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Say it as often and as loudly as you like, it's simply not true.

"<i>Say it as often and as loudly as you like</i>" John, what you think is <b>NOT</b> true.... you see John, it is so easy for you to say that I am wrong, but that doesn’t mean that I am not saying the true, <b>for most surely I am saying the truth</b>, because these are not my words, <b>they are the words of the truthful, the honest, Muhammad pbuh</b>, and I believe in his words, and simply I do not believe you at all. So stick to your “<i>reality view point</i>” and don’t bother us, let us too, believe in what we see is right.


Salam


Wael.

[Khairan]

I don't think your conclusions follow your facts at all -- either that or you are using a very different idea of "compulsion" than I. Islam does not advocate forcing people to practice it. That is a fact. Muslims are told not to molest unbelievers and to let them live as they will, provided that they do not try to disrupt Muslim society or oppress Muslims.


That the Qur'an tells us of the consequences of disbelief is hardly a "compulsion," as people who do not accept the Qur'an (i.e. non-Muslims) will hardly be motivated to believe it's warnings to begin with.


Let me ask you: in Christianity it is a widely held and old belief (though not universal) that in order to be saved one must accept Jesus as the Son of God and as the Christ-Saviour of all humanity. Is there any difference, in your mind, between such a claim and the statements in the Qur'an you have cited above?

[Khairan]

Say it as often and as loudly as you like, it's simply not true.

C'mon now -- this is hardly a point that can be debated, is it? It is a normative belief that is grounded in philosophy and theology rather than empiricism. What's the point of arguing it? WelMel has made it clear that this is the Islamic view, and that at least is *quite* true. It's hardly surprising that you don't accept it, but your acceptance doesn't really have any bearing on the claim. You might as well argue with us that Muhammad (sa) didn't speak to God -- it would be just as fruitful.

[Khairan]

He didn't, I thought he spoke to an angel ? (equally untrue though)

Well, in Islamic theology he also ascended to heaven (the Meraj) and met Moses (as) and spoke with God. Scholars debate whether this was meant to be understood as a "real" event or a dream he had with symbolic meaning.
Anyhoo, either way there is a difference between arguing the "fact" -- whether the Prophet spoke with God or with angels, and whether people are born Muslims -- and arguing the belief. It is clear that in Islamic BELIEF these things are "true," and as such Muslims treat them as true. So again I say that your disputing their truth or falsehood isn't really pointful. What you *can* and ought to dispute rather is the objectivity of the claim, which I'm sure we can agree is NOT objective but rather a subjective belief dependent on the presuppositions of a particular faith. Then again, I don't think Wel has tried to make a case for the objective truth of the claim, as he said specifically that it is "the Islamic belief."

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum

Wel will continue to tell people they were born muslim even though it is not true.

Which Islamic teaching do you consider to be true John? You don’t even think that the Qur'an is true revelation of God Almighty, but you never insist that it is not true as you did with the topic of being born Muslim. Grow up john, every single human being was born Muslim, this is only what we Muslims believe, if you think it is not true then fine, we respect your thoughts but this doesnt make you right.


Salam


wael.

[Khairan]

They are both equally false, however, you can believe the quran as such and that does not effect me, however when you have the arrogance to tell me I am born muslim that is another matter. You see wel, you're fantasy world is starting to reach my real world.

I believe you are using too narrow a definition of "Islam" personally. Though I've no doubt there are others who would disagree with me, I believe that saying someone is "born Muslim" does not mean they were born practicing the "religion" of Islam; "religion" implies a ritualistic orthodoxy and a circumscribed set of beliefs, which I do not believe is the case.
What I believe (begin metaphysical diatribe) is that people were not born in conflict with their role as God's creation, but through living in the world we come into this conflict. In other words, if "Islam" is literally a submission to the purpose for which one is created, then to say someone is born "muslim" is to say that we are born spiritually in accord with that purpose. We rapidly forget that purpose and become ghafils, and it is through spiritual reflection and learning from parents and society that we either begun to return towards it or drift even farther away.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Absolutely none of it.

It's fine, to you is your way and to me mine...

They are both equally false, however, you can believe the quran as such and that does not effect me, however when you have the arrogance to tell me I am born muslim that is another matter. You see wel, you're fantasy world is starting to reach my real world.

First of all I was not talking to you, I was answering <b>FHC</b>, and it was you who jumped into the discussion and accused me by being arrogant. Again and again John, we do not expect you to believe in anything that we say, but you can't force on us your opinions, keep them for yourself.

A lot of jews seem to believe that the lands in palestine were promised to them by god (the same god you worship lad) so I guess the next logical step is to believe that is true also and muslims should respect that.

It’s good that you said “<i>a lot of Jews</i>” because I also know a lot of them who do not believe in such thing. However, I can’t easily convince someone to change his beliefs and follow mine, and so I have to respect everyone’s beliefs, <b>but at the same time, I will keep saying the truth John even if you hated it. </b>


Salam


Wael.