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***Muslimah*** · 08-03-2004, 01:00 PM

as salam alykom

Jazaki Allah khairan sister Radiyah for your effort may Allah reward u much for it

***Muslimah*** · 08-03-2004, 01:08 PM

as salam alykom Lightuponlight

I think u have a serious problem may Allah guide us all

If u know arabic, then first off dont say someone made a lier of Allah (wal iyadhu billah). Simple when Allah states that the Messenger is going to teach them two things, the book and wisdom. That makes the items two separate things, r u following. Then the book yes shall contain hikma of course, but since Allah mentioned it separately, it is a way of emphasing it due to its importance. Therefore, the Messenger (sallla Allah a`alyhee wa sallam) shall teach two things the book and hikma (wisdom). Now what is the source of the hikmah? it must be nothing else but the hadeeth.. If Allah mentioned in Quran sunat aldheen khalow. Foot steps of those who came before u. Therefore the hikmah shall be titled as sunnah as well.

btw not once I saw either u or THE_ICONOCLAST make sala on the Messenger which is a must by virtue of Quran I am sure u know the Ayah.


I am not sure u r a brother or sister. But if this is what u believe really, then u have a serious problem that entails immediate repentance and I think, but u better check with a scholar taking the shahada again.

Lightuponlight · 08-03-2004, 08:22 PM

Peace be upon you,

Quote:If u know arabic, then first off dont say someone made a lier of Allah (wal iyadhu billah). Simple when Allah states that the Messenger is going to teach them two things, the book and wisdom. That makes the items two separate things, r u following. Then the book yes shall contain hikma of course, but since Allah mentioned it separately, it is a way of emphasing it due to its importance. Therefore, the Messenger (sallla Allah a`alyhee wa sallam) shall teach two things the book and hikma (wisdom). Now what is the source of the hikmah? it must be nothing else but the hadeeth.. If Allah mentioned in Quran sunat aldheen khalow. Foot steps of those who came before u. Therefore the hikmah shall be titled as sunnah as well.

Main Entry: ex·trap·o·late

1 : to infer (values of a variable in an unobserved interval) from values within an already observed interval

2 a : to project, extend, or expand (known data or experience) into an area not known or experienced so as to arrive at a usually conjectural knowledge of the unknown area

HUH?! How in the WORLD did you arrive at that conclusion!!?! You are extrapolating here.

“…For Allah has sent down (anzala) to you the Book and the Wisdom and taught you what you knew not…” (4:113)

Al-Hikma is an attribute/characteristic of the Qur’an. The Qur’an is not just a book of commandments/policies/rules/laws. It also holds the hikma/wisdom behind those rules and regulations.

There has already come to them recitals wherein there is (enough) to check; delivery of Wisdom (Hikmatun Balighatun) - but the preaching of warners profits them not.” (54:4-5)

This ayat talks about the delivery of Hikma, which is from THE BOOK OF GOD. Hence, this verse confirms that Hikma is from the Book and not from any outside sources.

Then in this verse, The God makes it clear that The Qur’an is the Hikma:

“These are of the Wisdom (al-Hikmati), which your Lord has revealed to you. And do not make with God another god, or you will be cast into Hell, blameworthy and regretting. (17:39).

“Alif Laam Ra. These are the Verses of the Book of Wisdom (Kitaab al-Hakeem)” (10:1)

“Alif Lam Mim. These are the Verses of the Book of Wisdom” (31:1-2)

“Ta Sin. By the Qur’an full of Wisdom” (36:1-2)

“We have made it a Qur’an in Arabic, so that you may use your Aqal. And verily it is in the Mother of The Book, in Our Presence, High, full of Wisdom” (43:3-4)

These above Ayaat make it evident that Wisdom is an attribute of the Qur’an. As a result when the Qur’an is revealed to the Prophet, its Hikma is also revealed to him by default.

Ha Mim. And the Book of Clarity (Kitaab al-Mubeen). We sent it down during a blessed night: for We wish to warn. In that is made distinct EVERY affair of WISDOM” (44:1-4)

Here, The God binds the descending of the Book with ALL wisdom. It is an attribute of the Qur’an that is to be recited and is NOT a separate revelation from the Qur’an.

He grants wisdom to whom He chooses, and whoever is granted wisdom, has been given much good. Only those with understanding will remember. 2-269

Quote:the hikmah shall be titled as sunnah as well

WRONG. Al-Quran is perfect, has been completed by the Almighty Himself. It's words do not need to be substituted by YOU.

But nice try at manipulating another meaning for hikma.

Now, please post the verse where The God says that wisdom = sunnah

Or else, you ascribe/associate something with The God without being able to prove it, via HIS Scripture.

7:33. Say: the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.

21:24. Or have they taken for worship (other) gods besides him? Say, "Bring your proof: this is the Message of those with me and the Message of those before me." But most of them know not the Truth, and so turn away.

Quote:I am not sure u r a brother or sister. But if this is what u believe really, then u have a serious problem that entails immediate repentance and I think, but u better check with a scholar taking the shahada again.

The shahada which the sunnis/shias utter today is unquranic. Can you please point where God has told us to utter such a thing in order to become a Muslim?

Looking forward to your response.

***Muslimah*** · 08-03-2004, 08:35 PM

check your peer's thread titled is bukhari and et al ... etc Insh aAllah I gave him / her response there.

May Allah guide both of u,

Lightuponlight · 08-03-2004, 08:38 PM

Yes I send it to him, but, is he banned or something?

can you please respond to my previous post, thanks.

Lightuponlight · 08-03-2004, 08:42 PM

nvm

radiyah · 08-03-2004, 10:21 PM

Salam

Quote:There is no such thing as sunna of muhammad in the Reading.

Who are u to say that and what is your proof ? are u a scholar or what [Image: dry.gif]

Quote:7. What Allâh gave as booty (Fai') to His Messenger (Muhammad ) from the people of the townships, - it is for Allâh, His Messenger (Muhammad ), the kindred (of Messenger Muhammad ), the orphans, AlMasâkin (the poor), and the wayfarer, in order that it may not become a fortune used by the rich among you. And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad ) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allâh. Verily, Allâh is Severe in punishment. 59, Surat Al-Hashr.
This verse is about war booty. Nice try.

I know that it is about war booty, i put this aya here to emphasis on this "And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad ) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it)

and then the division of booty, how was it decided, or the quantities, it was all explained by the prophets sayings, and sayings= ahadeeth and ahadeth=sunnah= sunnah is what he utters from his mouth, and each word he utters is by revelation from Allah, and the sahabas wrote this done, and by efforts of many scientists to preserve it reached us, and one of these scholars is Bukhary.

Quote:NOWHERE does it say that, obeying the messenger = obeying bukhari, or obeying the messenger = obeying/following ahadith BESIDES the quran.

And why should Allah mention Bukhary in the Quran, he did not mention the name of any of the sahaba in the QURAN, who are closer to the prophet and who preserved the QurAn and Ahadeeth of the Prophet, except Zayd,and that was for a special subject. So this is a non rational quest from u [Image: dry.gif]

.

Quote:No one is claiming that the messenger speaks out of his own desire when it comes to the Reading.
Good job at manipulating other words to mean sunna. Al-Hikma = the wisdom.

PLease point out an ayat where The God specifically says AL HIKMA = SUNNAH OF MUHAMMAD.

If you cannot do this, then you effectively make a liar out of God.

I am not manipulating, if u know Arabic which I doubt u know, then u will know that the word Hikma means, especially when it is associated with prophets.

What does the word Hikma means= حكمه

Hikma in Arabic means :

1) SAR Hakeeman= become wise.

2) Al-Kalam Al-mowafeq Al-Hag = the Sayings that endorses with the truth.

3) Sawab Al-Amr Wa Sadaduh = the rightness of a matter and relevance.

4) Al'adl= Justice.

5) Al-'Ilm = science and knowledge.

6) Al-Hulm = patience and forebearance.

7) Al_phalsapha= Philosophy= calm resignation: restraint, resignation, or calmness and rationality in a person’s behavior or response to events, u can read more here.

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/philosophy.html

So this is the 7 different meanings of the arabic word hikma, these are 7 characteristics, and they all apply to the Prophet, may Peace Be Upon Him, he is wise, he utters nothing but truth, when he looks in a matter or judge it, it is by rightousness and relevance, he is just, he has the science and the knowledge that Allah Subhanau Wa T'ala taught him, he is the most patient person ever born on this earth, and he is the best philosopher born.

Now what Does Sunna means in Arabic language ?

Sunna is :

1) Al-Nahj= a course or following to pursue.

2) Al-tareeg= The way one follows.

3) Al-Seera = conduct, behaviour. Line of conduct and behaviour or way of life.

So now we come to the conclusion that the Sunna, is the NAHJ, the course we should

follow of a beleif. We are Muslims, we beleive in ONE GOD, Allah Subhanahu Wata'ala, and Prophet Mohamad is his Messenger, that utters no falsity, he is wise truthful, just, patient, knowledgable, and most of all his manners was the Quran itself. So this was his Nahj his way, his tareeqa. he had a line of conduct and behaviour which we should follow, and that is the Sunna, how we pray, how we wash, how we eat, how we pay zakat, how we rule, what we should do when go to jihad. I think i said before that in the Quran it was not mentioned how many times we should pray, or the rulings of many marriage matters in sunna not mentioned in Quran.

Now about u refuting the ahadeeth of Bukhary, who are u to refute them, Bukhary was a very relegious and trusted scholar, he once travelled a long way to a man he heard that he has one hadeeth of the prophet(PBUH), but when he saw that that man lied to his animal by falsly aiming that he has food in his hand, he left him and told him if u lie to an animal, how then can I beleive u.

Quote:WRONG. Al-Quran is perfect, has been completed by the Almighty Himself. It's words do not need to be substituted by YOU.

But nice try at manipulating another meaning for hikma.

The Quran is perfect, and its words are not subsituted by any ordinary human being, it is subsituted by the Prophet of the Alameen, who has been taught by the Angel Gabriel. And when Allah says in his Holy Quran"

For Allah has sent down (anzala) to you the Book and the Wisdom and taught you what you knew not…” (4:113)

Book And the wisdom= Al-Kitab Wa Al-Hikma it means in arabic 2 different things Wa means and, he did not say the kitab is the hikma. Wa is adat Jame' in Arabic, which means that it is an adding particle or letter, which means this and that, which means 2 different things. Al- Kitab WA Al-Hikma, e.g The table and chair= Almae'da WA alkursy. 2 different things. So stop saying that we are manpulating words, it is u who is manipulating and not us. [Image: dry.gif]

Now if u r following a special beleif or creed, that is against the Quran and Sunna, this is not the place to preach it.

And if u r one of the followers of the submitters [Image: dry.gif]

, then I hope u will repent, or leave this forum [Image: mad.gif]

.

http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Par...submitters.html

If u r of his followers, then leave in peace or repent. And stop playing with verses of Quran according to your Nafs and hawa.

Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem :

14. And whosoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger (Muhammad ), and transgresses His limits, He will cast him into the Fire, to abide therein; and he shall have a disgraceful torment.
4, Al-Nisa'

36. It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allâh and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.
33, Al-Ahzab

22. Say (O Muhammad ): "None can protect me from Allâh's punishment (if I were to disobey Him), nor should I find refuge except in Him.

23. "(Mine is) but conveyance (of the truth) from Allâh and His Messages (of Islâmic Monotheism), and whosoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger, then verily, for him is the Fire of Hell, he shall dwell therein forever ." 72, Surat Al-Jinn.

So if u disobey any word or order utterred by the Prophet Mohammad, u r a trangresser, and the Sunnah is the Prophets sayings and orders that he does not speak of his own Nafs or Hawa, it is a revelation from Allah Almighty. Allah is always mentioning His Name with the Prophet, to obey Him and the Prophet. So stop trying to refute the Sunna, because u will not succeed.

Hasbuna Allah Wa ni'ma Al-Wakeel, Howa Nima' Al-Mawla, Wa ni'ma Al-Naseer, Allahuma La tohasibna bima fa'ala alsufaha' mina, inaka Anta Al-Azeez Al-Hakeem.

Wasalm

radiyah · 08-03-2004, 10:29 PM

Quote: as salam alykom
Jazaki Allah khairan sister Radiyah for your effort may Allah reward u much for it

Al-salam 'alaykom

Jazaky mithluh sister.

Wasalam

Lightuponlight · (This post was last modified: 08-03-2004, 11:25 PM by Lightuponlight.)

Peace,

Quote:Who are u to say that and what is your proof ? are u a scholar or what

My proof is that, the sunna of Muhammad does not exist within the Reading.

Quote:and then the division of booty, how was it decided, or the quantities, it was all explained by the prophets sayings, and sayings= ahadeeth and ahadeth=sunnah= sunnah is what he utters from his mouth, and each word he utters is by revelation from Allah, and the sahabas wrote this done, and by efforts of many scientists to preserve it reached us, and one of these scholars is Bukhary.

I don't see ANYWHERE, in the Reading, where it says that it was decided/explained by EXTRA/CO-EQUAL/SUPPLENTAL sayings in addition to the Scripture.

Can you please go to the Reading and produce a verse which says to refer to second/third hand narrations/reports, thanks.

Quote:And why should Allah mention Bukhary in the Quran, he did not mention the name of any of the sahaba in the QURAN, who are closer to the prophet and who preserved the QurAn and Ahadeeth of the Prophet, except Zayd,and that was for a special subject. So this is a non rational quest from u

If he didn't mention Bukhari and Enterprise in the Reading, then, it proves that, these men are unauthorized, and so is their work.

Bukhari traveled far and wide, wishfully writing down ahadith, YEARS after the prophet's demise, (without taking note of 5-3, today I have perfected your way for you, and completed My blessings upon you, and I have accepted surrender as the system for you), by men who WEREN'T even eyewitnesses to him.

The major cause of division within "Islam" is all due to substantiating, glamorizing, upholding and implementing the second/third hand narrations/reports compiled by Bukhari et al.

Quote:I am not manipulating, if u know Arabic which I doubt u know, then u will know that the word Hikma means, especially when it is associated with prophets.

Yes, I am learning Fushaa.

The quranic usage for the word hikma = wisdom. The word hikma does NOT mean sunna/ahadith, period. You are conjecturing/extrapolating here.

Quote:he is the most patient person ever born on this earth, and he is the best philosopher born.

Muhammad was like any other prophet/messenger.

The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord. And the believers, all who believe in God, and His angles, and His scriptures, and His messengers; we do not differentiate between any of His messengers; and they said: "We hear and obey, forgive us O Lord, and to you is our destiny." 2-285

Quote:Now what Does Sunna means in Arabic language ?
Sunna is :

1) Al-Nahj= a course or following to pursue.

2) Al-tareeg= The way one follows.

3) Al-Seera = conduct, behaviour. Line of conduct and behaviour or way of life.

So now we come to the conclusion that the Sunna, is the NAHJ, the course we should

follow of a beleif. We are Muslims, we beleive in ONE GOD, Allah Subhanahu Wata'ala, and Prophet Mohamad is his Messenger, that utters no falsity, he is wise truthful, just, patient, knowledgable, and most of all his manners was the Quran itself. So this was his Nahj his way, his tareeqa. he had a line of conduct and behaviour which we should follow, and that is the Sunna,

35:43. Istikbaran fee al-ardi wamakra alssayyi-i wala yaheequ almakru alssayyi-o illa bi-ahlihi fahal yanthuroona illa sunnata al-awwaleena 
falan tajida lisunnati Allahi tabdeelan walan tajida lisunnati Allahi tahweelan

35:43 On account of their arrogance in the land and their plotting of Evil, but the plotting of Evil will hem in only the authors thereof. Now are they but looking for the way the ancients 
were dealt with? But no change wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing): no turning off wilt thou find in Allah's way. 

According to the Reading, there are ONLY TWO SUNNAS, to wit, sunna of ancients and of The God.

Now, if you wish to accord Muhammad a sunna, then please go to the Reading and produce the verse where God does first.

Quote:how we pray, how we wash, how we eat, how we pay zakat, how we rule, what we should do when go to jihad.

LOL! The messenger's job was not to teach us HOW to wash, how to eat. I believe my mommy was responsible for that.

First of all, solaa, from my opinion, does not mean RITUAL prayer. Please point out the verse where The God gives us step by step details on how to do a raka unit in the Reading.

Zakaa is NOT a religious tithe, rather it means purification

Quote:I think i said before that in the Quran it was not mentioned how many times we should pray, or the rulings of many marriage matters in sunna not mentioned in Quran.

LOL! Exactly why solaa does not mean ritual prayer. The sunnis/shias/priests admit that, there are no such details of this ''ritual prayer'' in the Reading. This is their own testimony, LOL!

Shall I seek for a judge other than GOD, when HE it is WHO has sent down to you the BOOK FULLY DETAILED? And those to whom WE gave the Book know that it has been sent down from thy Lord with truth; so be thou not of those who doubt. 6-114

A.L.R., a Scripture whose verses were made firm, then DETAILED from One who is Wise, Expert. 11-1

A Scripture whose verses are DETAILED, a Quran in Arabic, for a people who know. 41-3

Quote:Now about u refuting the ahadeeth of Bukhary, who are u to refute them, Bukhary was a very relegious and trusted scholar, he once travelled a long way to a man he heard that he has one hadeeth of the prophet(PBUH), but when he saw that that man lied to his animal by falsly aiming that he has food in his hand, he left him and told him if u lie to an animal, how then can I beleive u.

No, according to the Sunni school of thought, Bukhari was a trusted scholar, however, the Shia School of thought do not acknowledge him at all. Not much diff. between the two ahadith of the sects. Shias focus more on hassan, hussein, muhammad, ali and fatima, while sunnis focus more on abu bakr, umar, and uthman. Both sectarians segregate the community even further, groping at each others necks, without being able to substantiate any of their claims via the Reading.

LOL! At least you guys have one thing in common

Quote:Book And the wisdom= Al-Kitab Wa Al-Hikma it means in arabic 2 different things Wa means and, he did not say the kitab is the hikma. Wa is adat Jame' in Arabic, which means that it is an adding particle or letter, which means this and that, which means 2 different things. Al- Kitab WA Al-Hikma, e.g The table and chair= Almae'da WA alkursy. 2 different things. So stop saying that we are manpulating words, it is u who is manipulating and not us

No, the verses I adduced already proved that, al hikma is an ATTRIBUTE of quran, like al kitab, al furqan, etc.

Stop trying to manipulate another meaning.

Quote:And if u r one of the followers of the submitters , then I hope u will repent, or leave this forum .
http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/P...tters.html

If u r of his followers, then leave in peace or repent. And stop playing with verses of Quran according to your Nafs and hawa.

I am NOT a follower of Rashad and his CULT.

Quote:If u r of his followers, then leave in peace or repent. And stop playing with verses of Quran according to your Nafs and hawa.

I follow the creed of Abraham, who was a paragon of logic and monotheism

Say: "God bears truth. Follow the creed of Abraham, monotheism, and he was not of those who set-up partners." 3-95

I am not here to fight, but to have a debate based on logic and reason.

You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and argue with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones. 16-125

Hopefully, you will not resort to name calling or ad hominem arguments if you cannot refute me, God willing.

Quote:So if u disobey any word or order utterred by the Prophet Mohammad, u r a trangresser, and the Sunnah is the Prophets sayings and orders that he does not speak of his own Nafs or Hawa, it is a revelation from Allah Almighty. Allah is always mentioning His Name with the Prophet, to obey Him and the Prophet. So stop trying to refute the Sunna, because u will not succeed.

You have YET to point out the 'SUNNA OF MUHAMMAD', which your argument is based on.

LOL! The very core tenet of your ideology cannot be proven, via your OWN scripture.

Looking forward to your response

***Muslimah*** · 08-05-2004, 12:36 PM

Quote: First of all, solaa, from my opinion, does not mean RITUAL prayer. Please point out the verse where The God gives us step by step details on how to do a raka unit in the Reading.
Zakaa is NOT a religious tithe, rather it means purification

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="1634" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think i said before that in the Quran it was not mentioned how many times we should pray, or the rulings of many marriage matters in sunna not mentioned in Quran.

LOL! Exactly why solaa does not mean ritual prayer. The sunnis/shias/priests admit that, there are no such details of this ''ritual prayer'' in the Reading. This is their own testimony, LOL!

</div></blockquote>

what u stated here is enough to make u an apostate, or even a non Muslim wearing the dress of Islam just to come and disturb a Muslim board.

Go and learn Arabic first..

This thread is locked, go and check your friends thread I have something there for u both.

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