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Curious Christian · 08-05-2006, 02:03 AM

Quote:Bismillah:

again you missed my point.. as usual. i did understnad what paul mean, am only against the words that he used.

as I said to reep.. am part of that website so there is no harm to copy and paste some of our works. We are not hypocrites Alhamdulelah, more than 80% of people working in that website are Ex Christians who found the truth. So if you can’t see the truth this is your problem.

Again, am against the words that Paul used to describe his intention which seems to me that this is not inspiration from God Almighty because of course God will surely choose better words to describe this very simple situation.

Salam

Wael.

There is nothing wrong with what Paul said. Anybody can take any written word and have it mean what they want it to mean. To the Christian, who has the Holy Spirit, the meaning is clear.

There are also websites run by ex Muslims...who found the truth. So if YOU can't see the truth it's YOUR problem.

wel_mel_2 · 08-05-2006, 03:47 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:There is nothing wrong with what Paul said. Anybody can take any written word and have it mean what they want it to mean. To the Christian, who has the Holy Spirit, the meaning is clear.

oh i forgot, i dont have the holy spirit.

Salam

Wael.

Curious Christian · (This post was last modified: 08-05-2006, 12:50 PM by Curious Christian.)

Quote:Bismillah:

oh i forgot, i dont have the holy spirit.

Salam

Wael.

That would be one explanation.

The Bible tells us that those who don't believe will have their hearts hardened.

wel_mel_2 · 08-06-2006, 01:19 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:That would be one explanation.

The Bible tells us that those who don't believe will have their hearts hardened.

You mean those who do not have the holy spirit...

Now it is clear. If you do not have the Holy Spirit, you can’t understand the Trinity, the Divinity of Jesus, and the foolishness of God the way you understood.

Now it is clear to me CC. thanks.

Salam

Wael.

Curious Christian · 08-06-2006, 02:54 AM

Quote:Bismillah:

You mean those who do not have the holy spirit...

Now it is clear. If you do not have the Holy Spirit, you can’t understand the Trinity, the Divinity of Jesus, and the foolishness of God the way you understood.

Now it is clear to me CC. thanks.

Salam

Wael.

If your heart is hardened then you won't believe. Many people understand the truth but don't believe. Their hearts are hardened. You even understand, but you refuse to believe. You call if "foolishness." What I believe is the complete revelation of God in the Old Testament and New. The same Gospel by which the world was changed and the same Gospel that moves men's hearts from stone to flesh even this day. The same Gospel that Mohammed encountered in his day even. Nothing else.

wel_mel_2 · 08-07-2006, 12:08 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:If your heart is hardened then you won't believe. Many people understand the truth but don't believe. Their hearts are hardened. You even understand, but you refuse to believe. You call if "foolishness." What I believe is the complete revelation of God in the Old Testament and New. The same Gospel by which the world was changed and the same Gospel that moves men's hearts from stone to flesh even this day. The same Gospel that Mohammed encountered in his day even. Nothing else.

Who is going to soften or harden my heart CC? The Holy Spirit right? So without it am not going to UNDERSTAND, not to believe. So there is no use of our study, research etc unless we accept Jesus pbuh as our Lord and savior we are not going to receive the gift “The Holy Spirit”. In short, unless you believe in Jesus’ divinity and accept him as your “PERSONAL SAVIOR” you are not going to have the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is the person that makes you understand all these ambiguous issues that we have discussed... so we should believe first, THEN understanding comes later.

This is what most Christians say when they could not provide a logical answer.

Quote:The same Gospel that Mohammed encountered in his day even

Muhammad pbuh have never seen the Gospel that you are talking about. His language was Arabic and there was no Arabic Bible in the time of Muhammad pbuh, plus he was illiterate. How did you make such claim that he came across the Bible that you are reading now??

Salam

Wael.

Curious Christian · 08-07-2006, 02:01 AM

Quote:Muhammad pbuh have never seen the Gospel that you are talking about. His language was Arabic and there was no Arabic Bible in the time of Muhammad pbuh, plus he was illiterate. How did you make such claim that he came across the Bible that you are reading now??

There is ample evidence that Christians were preaching the gospel to the Arabs in Mecca in Mohammed's time. The Quran even addresses Christians. Of course Mohammed encountered Christians and the gospel. A book called "Mohammed's Mecca" describes the fact that Meccans had much contact with Christians.

The influence of Christianity was brought to bear upon Arabia both from Syria in the northwest and from Mesopotamia in the northeast. In the sixth century A.D. the Arabic kingdoms of the Ghassanids in Syria and the Lakhmids in Mesopotamia were allied respectively with the Byzantine and the Persian empires and were strong centers of Christianity. From these regions and in this time if not also earlier, Christian ideas spread on into the farther reaches of Arabia. A careful study of the relevant data particularly in the Quran shows that Muhammad had a very considerable store of knowledge of Judaism and Christianity, and that it was of the sort which he would have been most likely to obtain through oral channels and personal observation over a long period of time.

You are shocked that I would say that Mohammed was influenced by Jews and Christians. Sorry. He was...that is a fact. He didn't get all of it right though. For example, his idea that he Trinity was Father, Son and Mary...maybe because he was illiterate.

I don't accept the notion that Mohammed was illiterate either.

Quote:O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs." (Koran 4:171)

reepicheep · 08-07-2006, 03:40 AM

Mel_Wel_2 wrote:

> unless we accept Jesus pbuh as our Lord and savior we are

> not going to receive the gift “The Holy Spirit”.

If you are attempting to describe what Christians believe, then you are incorrect.

Quote:No one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3

According to the bible, the Gospel is the means by which the Holy Spirit offers us all the blessings of Christ and creates faith in us. So, the Holy Spirit is present in people prior to them accepting Christ. But as passages such as Matthew 12:32 show, it is possible for people to reject the message of the Holy Spirit ("the unforgivable sin").

wel_mel_2 · 08-07-2006, 04:27 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:There is ample evidence that Christians were preaching the gospel to the Arabs in Mecca in Mohammed's time. The Quran even addresses Christians. Of course Mohammed encountered Christians and the gospel. A book called "Mohammed's Mecca" describes the fact that Meccans had much contact with Christians.

I did not deny that Arabs had contact with Christians and Jews during the time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh, but that does not mean that they were “preaching” the same Christianity as practiced by Christians of today. I’ve already posted before what earlier Christians believed regarding Jesus, Trinity etc.

Quote:You are shocked that I would say that Mohammed was influenced by Jews and Christians. Sorry. He was...that is a fact. He didn't get all of it right though. For example, his idea that he Trinity was Father, Son and Mary...maybe because he was illiterate.

No am not shocked, I get used to this kind of arguments. If Muhammad pbuh was influenced by the Jews and Christians, then you have to tell us in what way was he influenced? And how did you come to understand such thing?

Quote:that is a fact. He didn't get all of it right though. For example, his idea that he Trinity was Father, Son and Mary...maybe because he was illiterate.

That makes me laugh. A LOT. I am sure that most Muslims have heard this argument over and over again.

Firstly this verse:

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger from Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Three": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
[Qur'an 4:171]

Contains no errors, the verse is telling Christians to not say three, which is what they always say, three as in trinity. As we see it is wrong according to the Quran.

They also like to quote this verse as well:

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

They like to claim that the three being mentioned here are Mary, Jesus, and Allah; they then argue this is a wrong picture of the trinity therefore the prophet Muhammad got it wrong.

Don’t you know any Catholic friend? Ok look here at what the Catholic believe regarding Mary.

Quote:As a faithful Catholic, and later as a nun, I was devoted to Mary. The prayers and practices were so familiar. They were taught to me by sincere people. I prayed the rosary, including rosary novenas. I wore a Brown Scapular and a Miraculous Medal. (You can read about these things in the Glossary, which is Appendix C.) I visited shrines that honor Mary. I had beautiful statues of Mary. I attended special services where we prayed to Mary and recited a litany of titles honoring her. I read books about apparitions of Mary, and dreamed of visiting Lourdes and Fatima. I participated in processions honoring Mary. A statue of Mary was put on a platform that was decorated with flowers. There were poles on the platform, so that men could carry it. The men walked through the streets, carrying the statue on the platform. We walked behind the statue, singing songs in Mary’s honor.
When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over: "Mary, my mother!" Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat. People gathered around the picture. Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary. When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her. (Note 4)

One popular prayer in Mary’s honor is the "Hail Holy Queen," which is known in Latin as the "Salve Regina". It is traditionally included as part of praying the rosary.

"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."

Alfonsus de Liguori (1696-1787) was a principal proponent of the Marianist Movement, which glorifies Mary. He wrote a book entitled "The Glories of Mary" which is famous, influential and widely read. In this book, de Liguori says that Mary was given rulership over one half of the kingdom of God; Mary rules over the kingdom of mercy and Jesus rules over the kingdom of justice. De Liguori said that people should pray to Mary as a mediator and look to her as an object of trust for answered prayer. The book even says that there is no salvation outside of Mary.
Some people suggest that these views are extreme and not representative of Catholic Church teaching. However, instead of silencing de Liguori as a heretic, the Catholic Church canonized him as a saint and declared him to be a "doctor of the Church" (a person whose teachings carry weight and authority). Furthermore, his book is openly and officially promoted by the Catholic Church, and his teachings have influenced popes.



Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that "[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind." (Note 10) Pope Pius IX said: "Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her."

SOURCE: Catholic Corner.. Mary Worship

So note how this person explains how Catholics WORSHIP Mary, and look to her as a God, I mean they put their salvation in Mary! 

Now you and other "BORN AGAINS" Christians may be saying well this is wrong, and that Catholics are committing blasphemy, EXACTLY! The Quran makes sure it condemns all forms of blasphemy, just because this is not the trinity everyone is familiar with does not mean the Quran cannot condemn it. Secondly, there are lots of Catholics and there have been a lot of Mary worshippers throughout history so to say this is just a minor issue is an under-statement, this is something widely practiced., and my wife one day used to do the same and so 85% of the population of the Philippines till today do consider Mary as a Divine being deserve worship.

Quote:I don't accept the notion that Mohammed was illiterate either.

Ok, don't accept. its up to you.

Salam

Wael.

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 08-07-2006, 05:39 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah:

Quote:Mel_Wel_2 wrote:

> unless we accept Jesus pbuh as our Lord and savior we are

> not going to receive the gift “The Holy Spirit”.

If you are attempting to describe what Christians believe, then you are incorrect.

According to the bible, the Gospel is the means by which the Holy Spirit offers us all the blessings of Christ and creates faith in us. So, the Holy Spirit is present in people prior to them accepting Christ. But as passages such as Matthew 12:32 show, it is possible for people to reject the message of the Holy Spirit ("the unforgivable sin").

Yes i was describing what Christians believe, "when they dont have answer to certain questions" , they immediately say "because you dont have the Holy Spirit IN YOU, then you are not going to understand... you first must bow down to Jesus and ask him to save you, accept him as your personal Lord and Savior, believe that he was killed for your own sins and on the third day he was raised from the dead, THEN AND ONLY THEN EVERYTHING IS GOING TO BE CLEAR
" but before that, You are not in a position where you can really "understand". this is what most Chrsitians say.

on this website: God the Holy Spirit part two you read the following:

Quote:No one can say that Jesus is Lord unless He is moved by the Holy Spirit 
[1 Corinthians 12:3]. So this Spirit abides in every one who acknowledges that Jesus is Lord

In other words, those who do not 
acknowledge that Jesus is Lord they do not have the Holy Spirit to teach them about Jesus as being Lord, savior etc...

and this is exactly what CC meant when he say

Quote:To the Christian, who has the Holy Spirit, the meaning is clear.

in other words, to Non Christians, or to people who claim to be Christians BUT DO NOT HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT
 , the meaning is ambiguous and misleading. so don't blame me because i dont have the holy spirit IN ME.
on the same page we also read:

Quote:The Holy Spirit will teach us what we need to say, He reveals the Wisdom of God
, because He reveals the teachings of the Word of God into our hearts, He is also described as the Consoler and Advocate or The Paraclete [John 14:26]

So unless you are blessed with the gift called 'holy spirit' you are in way going to understand the concept of those ambigouse doctrine such as Trinity, Jesus' divinity, and the foolishness of God that paul was talking about etc...

Salam

Wael.

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