Passion of Christ

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

For crying out loud!

Now you prefer to make jokes rather than refuting our points huh :D .

You're on a need-to-know basis, my friend

You see? :conf06:

There's a Catholic & non-Catholic edition of the RSV containing & excluding the deuterocanonical books respectively.

So an ordinary person is deceived, For example if you open the Non Catholic RSV, you will not be able to see the word <i>begotten </i> in John 3:16 the most popular verse among Christians, but if you read the same verse from the Catholc RSV, you will clearly find the word <i>begotten</i> there referring to Jesus. so which verse should we believe to be God’s words?


The question is not yet answer FHC, do you mean to say that the Catholic RSV is the word of God, but the Non Catholic RSV is <b>NOT</b> the word of God ??

I must admit I haven't gone through the whole document yet & I've got no idea how credible the author is.

It does not matter FHC, since this guy is a Non Muslim then we might have doubt about the information provided on his link, so I advise that you find some Shi’a websites and try to open the Qur’an on their website, and compare it with the Qur’an on any other Islamic Sunni websites. I guess you can still manage to read some Arabic words, start with the first Chapter of the Qur’an for example, AL FATIHA, and let me know if they are not the same. :) Good luck.


Salam.


Wael

[Faith Hope Charity]

Glory be to the Father & to the Son & to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, & ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

Now you prefer to make jokes rather than refuting our points huh

In other words you'd like me to spell it out for you...


T-H-E
F-A-T-H-E-R
B-E-G-O-T
T-H-E
S-O-N
.


Next time, I'll ask a muezzin to announce it from the minaret :lol: :D ;)

You see? :conf06:

Hahaha!

So an ordinary person is deceived, For example if you open the Non Catholic RSV, you will not be able to see the word <i>begotten </i> in John 3:16 the most popular verse among Christians, but if you read the same verse from the Catholc RSV, you will clearly find the word <i>begotten</i> there referring to Jesus. so which verse should we believe to be God’s words?

Why is a Muslim interested in Catholic/Protestant politics? :lol:


I'll just say that in this case it has more to do with interpretation than wording & I'm pleased to inform you that all Christians (theoretically) acknowledge Jesus Christ's Divinity (begotten of the Father).

The question is not yet answer FHC, do you mean to say that the Catholic RSV is the word of God, but the Non Catholic RSV is <b>NOT</b> the word of God ??

Jesus Christ is the Word of God. "Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance in whom he expresses Himself completely" (CCC 102).


With all due respect to non-Catholic Christians, FOR ME, any Bible that's missing 7 O/T books cannot possibly contain the complete Word of God. But having that, Wael, I don't believe the Holy Qur'an is God's word either, so each to their own :)

It does not matter FHC, since this guy is a Non Muslim then we might have doubt about the information provided on his link, so I advise that you find some Shi’a websites and try to open the Qur’an on their website, and compare it with the Qur’an on any other Islamic Sunni websites. I guess you can still manage to read some Arabic words, start with the first Chapter of the Qur’an for example, AL FATIHA, and let me know if they are not the same. Good luck.

Hey, why are you allowed to quote non-Catholic authors but I can't quote non-Muslim authors? That's not very fair :(


You don't necessarily have to comment on the following but I'd like to point out that I find it very interesting...


According to Jeffery, Abu Mas'ud's Codex was different from the Uthmanic text in several different ways:



1. It did not contain the Fatiha (the opening sura, sura 1), nor the two charm suras (suras 113 and 114).


2. It contained different vowels within the same consonantal text (Jeffery 25-113).


3. It contained Shi'ite readings (i.e. suras 5:67; 24:35; 26:215; 33:25,33,56; 42:23; 47:29; 56:10; 59:7; 60:3; 75:17-19) (Jeffery 40,65,68).


4. Entire phrases were different, such as:


A. sura 3:19: Mas'ud has "The way of the Hanifs" instead of "Behold, the [true] religion (din) of God is Islam."


B. sura 3:39: Mas'ud has "Then Gabriel called to him, 'O Zachariah'", instead of the Uthmanic reading: "Then the angels called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary."


C. Only his codice begins sura 9 with the Bismilah, while the Uthmanic text does not ("bismi 'llahi 'l-rahmani 'l-rahim" meaning, "In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate").


We can put it on hold for the time being if you wish. I'm still going over Arthur Jeffery's work. Besides, an Islamic forum is not the place to be discussing Islamic doctrines :lol:


Peace :peace:

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

Why is a Muslim interested in Catholic/Protestant politics?

Of course I must be very interested because of our relationship with Christians, I can see that every Christian trying to prove that he is on the right track and everyone else is damned, but yet no one standing on a solid ground, so its my duty to correct these false conceptions that they have about God, and may Allah guide us all to the right path.

I'll just say that in this case it has more to do with interpretation than wording & I'm pleased to inform you that all Christians (theoretically) acknowledge Jesus Christ's Divinity (begotten of the Father).

Some Christians, <b>Not all</b>.

With all due respect to non-Catholic Christians, FOR ME, any Bible that's missing 7 O/T books cannot possibly contain the complete Word of God. But having that, Wael, I don't believe the Holy Qur'an is God's word either, so each to their own

Here you go, for you, <b>all Bibles are corrupted except the Catholic version</b>, please be specific and don’t be like <i>YO YO </i> :D :D :D because if one word was discovered not to be God’s word in any Bible, <b>then the whole Bible should be rejected</b>.


As for the RCV, we will see whether your claim is true or not insh a Allah, let’s continue discussing on the other thread “The "Original" Manuscripts.


Now if you don’t believe in the Qur’an to be God’s word, its fine, insh a Allah let’s start a new thread and call it Is the Qur’an God’s words, or Muhammad’s pbuh word? What do you think?

Hey, why are you allowed to quote non-Catholic authors but I can't quote non-Muslim authors? That's not very fair

You are totally allowed to quote any source, but we have to be careful whether this source is reliable or not.

You don't necessarily have to comment on the following but I'd like to point out that I find it very interesting...

Wow… of course my comments are necessary,. At least to laugh a little bit. :D :D :D

1. It did not contain the Fatiha (the opening sura, sura 1), nor the two charm suras (suras 113 and 114).

Any sane person can see that this is pure nonsense, every single Muslim in the world whether he is a Sunni, shi’a or whatever, recite Al Fatiha during his Salah, in fact without reciting this chapter during your Salah, your salah is invalid. So how can the Qur’an does not contain Al Fatiha? Plus where is this copy? I asked you to verify both (<b>if there is another one exist</b>) to check the difference <b>with your own eyes</b>, not through Mr Jeffery’s glasses
:D … like for example, when I opened by my own hands the RCV I’ve found that it contains 73 books, but when I opened with my own hands the KJV I found 7 extra books are missing. The protestant said these books are perfectly matching with the original manuscripts, the Catholics said the same thing and no one knows what is the truth. Al Fatiha not in the Qur’an? This is the funniest joke I’ve heard in years

2. It contained different vowels within the same consonantal text (Jeffery 25-113).
3. It contained Shi'ite readings (i.e. suras 5:67; 24:35; 26:215; 33:25,33,56; 42:23; 47:29; 56:10; 59:7; 60:3; 75:17-19) (Jeffery 40,65,68).


4. Entire phrases were different, such as:


A. sura 3:19: Mas'ud has "The way of the Hanifs" instead of "Behold, the [true] religion (din) of God is Islam."


B. sura 3:39: Mas'ud has "Then Gabriel called to him, 'O Zachariah'", instead of the Uthmanic reading: "Then the angels called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary."


C. Only his codice begins sura 9 with the Bismilah, while the Uthmanic text does not ("bismi 'llahi 'l-rahmani 'l-rahim" meaning, "In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate").

Of course I am aware that some Non Muslims are inventing<i> ‘new’ </i> Qur’an and distributing it throughout the world as though it is the original, but they didn’t know that the Qur’an is memorized by millions today as it was memoriezed on the hearts of Muhammad’s companions. So it is impossible for anyone to decive Muslims by any so called <i>‘new’ </i> Qur’an.

We can put it on hold for the time being if you wish. I'm still going over Arthur Jeffery's work.

Go thorough it all your life, you can never prove that there was more than one Qur’an. :D

Besides, an Islamic forum is not the place to be discussing Islamic doctrines

No but this thread was not the right one to discuss such topic


Peace

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Salam FHC, regarding the evil part we agreed Insh aAllah we will insert into the predesitnation thread.


As for teh the part of God with us, you will be surprised to know that one of Allah's Names Is Qareeb which best translates as The Close, Near. You know what, this is the only ayah which starts by saying "if My devotees asked you (MOhamed) about Me, surely I m Close". In other Ayahs Allah Say tell them so and so, like if the contains a question posed by people, Allah Will Say if they asked u about so and so, tell them so and so. But in this position, Allah Didnt Command Mohamed prayer and peace be upon him to tell us, but rather Allah Said using a particle of certainity, fa inni == im surely close. Thus, if Allah Is Close, and Near, and also Wase`, which is Expanded, Spacious, ...etc, more like accomodating. How can He be not with us at each and every moment. Allah Is Also Al Qayoum, you are an Arabic native. Qayoum is derived from Yaqoum be shaye. Which is to assume, take charge of, be responsbile for. Imagine, Allah Is Qaoum of skies and earth. How can He be not with us. It means that Allah Is in Charge of all what is in skies and earth, regardless what are those things, mankind, angles, skies themselves, univers, ... animals, ...etc

Not quite, Dan! We both agree that God/Allah is Omniscient. I'm just trying to understand the problem of evil in Islam.


You're spot on!


Some of the most beautiful names in the human language are given to Allah in the Qur'an, but He is ultimately outside of the world. He is only Majesty... never Immanuel - God with us.


There's no room for the Cross or the Resurrection. .


Peace & blessings.

As for the resurrection part, you will be surprised, we believe that Eassa prayer and peace be upon him and his mother and our prophet and all other Messengers and prophets, was taken up by Allah alive. He will return on a later stage. Allah Wouldnt let His enemies be victorious over His Messenger and Prophet whose presence was a miracle from day one.


Just thought to give my 2 c..

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit.


Assalamu alykum, Muslimah!

As for teh the part of God with us, you will be surprised to know that one of Allah's Names Is Qareeb which best translates as The Close, Near. You know what, this is the only ayah which starts by saying "if My devotees asked you (MOhamed) about Me, surely I m Close". In other Ayahs Allah Say tell them so and so, like if the contains a question posed by people, Allah Will Say if they asked u about so and so, tell them so and so. But in this position, Allah Didnt Command Mohamed prayer and peace be upon him to tell us, but rather Allah Said using a particle of certainity, fa inni == im surely close. Thus, if Allah Is Close, and Near, and also Wase`, which is Expanded, Spacious, ...etc, more like accomodating. How can He be not with us at each and every moment. Allah Is Also Al Qayoum, you are an Arabic native. Qayoum is derived from Yaqoum be shaye. Which is to assume, take charge of, be responsbile for. Imagine, Allah Is Qaoum of skies and earth. How can He be not with us. It means that Allah Is in Charge of all what is in skies and earth, regardless what are those things, mankind, angles, skies themselves, univers, ... animals, ...etc

Thanks for that! It made perfect sense, however, I don't think it's quite the same as what Christians mean by Emmanuel. Surely, Allah's present in all areas of His creation, but do slaves have a personal & intimate relationship with their Master? Does Allah dwell within you? During Salat, do you acknowledge that He's close or beyond?

As for the resurrection part, you will be surprised, we believe that Eassa prayer and peace be upon him and his mother and our prophet and all other Messengers and prophets, was taken up by Allah alive. He will return on a later stage. Allah Wouldnt let His enemies be victorious over His Messenger and Prophet whose presence was a miracle from day one.

Muslims believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary was assumed into Heaven, body & soul??? :o I'm sooooooo surprised!!!!!!!


Why do some Muslims say that Jesus Christ, the "Prophet", will reappear, die, then be buried beside Muhammad (PBUH) in Medina, if Muhammad's alive in Paradise? I'm aware of Muhammad's journey from Mecca... to Jerusalem... to Paradise... but didn't he return to to earth & remain here?


Thanks :)


God bless.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Sorry punctuation mistake, Eassa prayer and peace be upon him and his mother and our prophet and all other Messengers and prophets. I was including her as well as all the other Prophets and Messengers as u may see now clearly in my dua for them with prayer and peace...

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


Faith Hope Charity


Peace

I haven't forgotten you :) Sorry about the delay.

Well it was my turn this time to be late in answering. :conf06:

Jesus Christ is the Son of God Incarnate. It's inappropriate to call Him "partner". Please check out my thread under Discussion of Beliefs for the theology behind the Most Holy Trinity & Incarnation. These truths are extremely hard for Muslims to accept. You're not alone.

From your point of view it may be incorrect when referring to Jesus pbuh as partner, but to me as a Muslimah it surely looks like that. Jesus pbuh is said to pray to the One that brought him to life and says he cannot do anything without his Creators permission. In Matthews? And here it ends up.

I'm not sure about being condemned to hell for mistreating a cat, but I guess only Allah (SWT) can judge us.

What we can learn from this knowledge is to treat humans and animals respectfully, to do our best and the Judgement will be His.

Because like you mentioned above, we have reason. Faith can never contradict reason. I agree about the lesson in the Garden. I'm still dumbfounded as to why Adam & Eve remained on earth & we're born in the same state as them but in a different realm.

To be tested. In Genesis we can read that Earth is a punishment so to speak, like due to Eve's obediance so that all women will suffer during childbirth. In Islam There is no such thing as childbirth would be a punishment for what our great great.....mother did. The 'idea' is truly strange to me.


So we are here to be tested and it is up to us what our goal way and what ways we take on it. We have been given the free will, it is up to us what we do with it.

We can't be tested in the Beatific Vision according to Christianity. Paradise is perfection... free from evil.

Sorry I don't know what 'Beatific Vision' is.


Yes Paradise is only good. So of course we have to EARN to go there inshaAllah. Do you think it would be for free?

But logically, the one thing God won't/can't do is contradict Himself. If He's All-Good... then He won't/can't be bad.

I have not said He is bad, have you? Where do this idea come from that HE is bad?

No jinns in Christianity, by the way.

So you do not believe in the unseen creations? Do you believe that the only things created are the things that your eyes can see?


Thanks for your kind words.

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit.

From your point of view it may be incorrect when referring to Jesus pbuh as partner, but to me as a Muslimah it surely looks like that. Jesus pbuh is said to pray to the One that brought him to life and says he cannot do anything without his Creators permission. In Matthews? And here it ends up.

It's a matter of opinion, Umm & you're most definitely entitled to yours :) Wael & I have been through all your favourite biblical verses before. I wholeheartedly profess that Jesus Christ is the Son God Incarnate, in accordance with Scripture. Of course Muslims disagree, but that doesn't change anything.

What we can learn from this knowledge is to treat humans and animals respectfully, to do our best and the Judgement will be His.

We should respect all of God's creation. However, humans & brutes aren't equal in Christianity. The former is made in the image & likeness of God. We're superior.

To be tested. In Genesis we can read that Earth is a punishment so to speak, like due to Eve's obediance so that all women will suffer during childbirth. In Islam There is no such thing as childbirth would be a punishment for what our great great.....mother did. The 'idea' is truly strange to me.

Earth isn't a punishment. Adam & Eve were created on earth, according to the Holy Bible. Their punishment was the loss of the gifts bestowed upon them: Sanctifying Grace, Integrity, Immortality, Happiness, Enlightenment - it's way too theological.


If you didn't inherited anything from your original parents, then why weren't you born in the same state as them?

So we are here to be tested and it is up to us what our goal way and what ways we take on it. We have been given the free will, it is up to us what we do with it.

Hmmm... I still haven't grasped the idea of free will/predestination in Islam so I'll let this one go for the time being.

Sorry I don't know what 'Beatific Vision' is.

Please don't apologize.


Beatific Vision - The contemplation of God in heavenly glory, a gift of God which is a constitutive element of the happiness (or beatitude) of heaven.

Yes Paradise is only good. So of course we have to EARN to go there inshaAllah. Do you think it would be for free?

Yep, kind of... I believe God invites us all to Paradise. We accept or decline His offer by faith/works which is our response to His gift of life.

I have not said He is bad, have you? Where do this idea come from that HE is bad?

From Muslims who believe Allah decrees both good & evil. Apparantly, there are some corresponding Ayats which support this idea.

So you do not believe in the unseen creations? Do you believe that the only things created are the things that your eyes can see?

Christians believe in Angels who are unseen.

Thanks for your kind words.

You're most welcome, Sweetie.


God bless.