12-25-2003, 11:23 PM
Well John this is going to be a very long post be patient and read it all.
Quote:Say, I have done a bit more research on this stoning thing (it's a pet project) and I cannot find anywhere in the Quran where it says an adulterer is to be stoned. The verse that prescribes the punishment for adultery is 100 \"stripe\"First john, what our profit says is not a pet thing, i would like to draw your attention that this is an insult to our prophet, I hope u do not say it again. If u do not beleive in him it is your own issue, but do not insult him with such words on this board.
Quote:024.002YUSUFALI: The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.Yes we do study Quran and sunna john we do, we are muslims, we read it every day and we know every word in it, the problem u don't, u take bits and pieces and what suits your needs.
PICKTHAL: The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment.
SHAKIR: (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.
Nothing about stoning here is there ?
Do ANY of you study the Quran ?
You must know that Quran, the miracle of the prophet from Allah almighty like he gave all other profits miracles referring to their time, at Moses time the society then was influnced by magic, so Allah gave him the real power of magic
in front of their tricks, and the first that were to beleive were the magicians themselves. Jesus peace be upon him who never said that he was god, and he was not crucified was given the power to cure people and waken them from death and all by the will of Allah, because his time was the era of medicine and doctors, so it suited his time, and our prophet Mohammad (pbuh) the arabs, were known to be eloquent in arabic and poetry, so Allah allmighty sent the Quran to them in eloquent arabic and he defied them to come with one verse only the same as his, and of course no one couldn't.
In the name of God most Gracious most merciful:
23. And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'ân) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Sûrah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allâh, if you are truthful.
24. But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.
Surat al Baqara
37. And this Qur'ân is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allâh (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) which was before it [i.e. the Taurât (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns,and all that exists).
38. Or do they say: \"He (Muhammad ) has forged it?\" Say: \"Bring then a Sûrah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allâh, if you are truthful!\"
39. Nay, they deny that; the knowledge whereof they could not compass and whereof the interpretation has not yet come unto them. Thus those before them did deny. Then see what was the end of the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers, etc.)!
surat Yunis
13. Or they say, \"He (Prophet Muhammad ) forged it (the Qur'an).\" Say: \"Bring you then ten forged Sûrah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allâh (to your help), if you speak the truth!\"
14. If then they answer you not, know then that the Revelation (this Qur'ân) is sent down with the Knowledge of Allâh and that Lâ ilâha illa Huwa: (none has the right to be worshipped but He)! Will you then be Muslims (those who submit to Islâm)? surat hood
88. Say: \"If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'ân, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another.\"
89. And indeed We have fully explained to mankind, in this Qur'ân, every kind of similitude, but most mankind refuse (the truth and accept nothing) but disbelief. Surat Alisraa
49. Say (to them, O Muhammad ): \"Then bring a Book from Allâh, which is a better guide than these two [the Taurât (Torah) and the Qur'ân], that I may follow it, if you are truthful.\"
50. But if they answer you not (i.e. do not believe in your doctrine of Islâmic Monotheism, nor follow you), then know that they only follow their own lusts. And who is more astray than one who follows his own lusts, without guidance from Allâh? Verily! Allâh guides not the people who are Zâlimûn (wrong-doers, disobedient to Allâh, and polytheists).
51. And indeed now We have conveyed the Word (this Qur'ân in which is the news of everything to them), in order that they may remember (or receive admonition). Surat Alqasas
30. Or do they say: \"(Muhammad is) a poet! We await for him some calamity by time.!\"
31. Say (O Muhammad to them): \"Wait! I am with you, among the waiters!\"
32. Do their minds command them this [i.e. to tell a lie against you (Muhammad )] or are they people exceeding the bounds (i.e. from Belief in Allâh to disbelief).
33. Or do they say: \"He (Muhammad ) has forged it (this Qur'ân)?\" Nay! They believe not!
34. Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'ân) if they are truthful. Surat At-tur
So here first of all, ayas that is proof from Allah almighty, and if u go to any arabic linguistic who is so eloquent in arabic and ask him to produce one aya he will never be able to do, the original arabs at that time couldnt, can any1 now?
Well if u tell me that u do not beleive in God, which I dont know if u do or not, I will translate a dialogue I read from a book by shikh Mohammad Alghazaly(may allah bless his soul) The dialogue was between him and a non beleiver) from a book called the missiles of truth(I will try to be brief):
The non beleiver said: if God created the world , then who created God?
The shikh answered: it seems that u by asking this question or objection u assure that there must be a creator for evrything.
he said: dont throw me in a maiz answer my question.
the sheikh said: well u see that the universe does not have a creator, that its creation is from its own self it does not need a creator, so y then do u accept the saying that the universe is founded by itself from eternity, and then u are amazed that we relegious men say say that god who created the universe has none equal to his entity.
it is the same issue, y do u beleive yousrelf when u decide it and deny it when others decide it , and if u see that
a god without a creator is a myth then a universe without a creator is a myth.
he said: we live in this world we feel it we cannot deny it.
the sheikh said: we did not ask u to deny it but we think when we ride a car or plane that flies, does it fly by itself, or does a well trained captain flies it?. So I come back to your question, it is turned against u, me and u we confess that there is a universe, a world that is being, we cannot deny it, u claim that there is no begning for it as a material, and i say and confirm that there is no begning for the existance of the creator. So if u want to mock from what does not be byhimself mock urself.
he said: u mean the mind assumption is the same for both.
the sheikh said: I will continue with u to show the emptiness and simulation u stand on, and the mind assumption is not the same between beleivers and non beleivers.
Me and u we look at a castle that has been built, so after an expertise look I see that a professional architect built it, and u see it with its wood stone and paint, has been put together by itself, and is ready for people to live in it by itself. The difference between our theories, is that u c a satelite turning in space u say: that it outburst in the universe by itself, without any supervison or command. I say it was outburst by a plotted scheme. we live over the earth that is designed beautifully, and under a well built sky, and we have a brain that we can by it search and decide and with it we look , find discuss and beleive, we refuse being like others who are so stupid to deny the existance of God. We Muslims , beleivers build our faith in Allah Almighty on basis of rationalism we read the existance of God Th Almighty by letting our minds travel within the deep space, and we feel his existance. We look at everything in this universe, on earth we look at the plants the flowers the beings each different, the food we eat who made it sweet or sour, the weather who made cold and hot, who created all this, there must be a one who is unique
never begot or was begotten .
this was the basis of the dialogue , there is a lot more, but I cant write it all.
So here we are done with that issue. then we will come to Prophet Mohammad and him being messenger of Allah.
In the Name of Allah Most Merciful Most Grateful :
29. Muhammad () is the Messenger of Allâh, and those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and falling down prostrate (in prayer), seeking Bounty from Allâh and (His) Good Pleasure. The mark of them (i.e. of their Faith) is on their faces (foreheads) from the traces of (their) prostration (during prayers). This is their description in the Taurât (Torah). But their description in the Injeel (Gospel) is like a (sown) seed which sends forth its shoot, then makes it strong, it then becomes thick, and it stands straight on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the disbelievers with them. Allâh has promised those among them who believe (i.e. all those who follow Islâmic Monotheism, the religion of Prophet Muhammad till the Day of Resurrection) and do righteous good deeds, forgiveness and a mighty reward (i.e. Paradise). Surat Alfath
44. Muhammad () is no more than a Messenger, and indeed (many) Messengers have passed away before him. If he dies or is killed, will you then turn back on your heels (as disbelievers)? And he who turns back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allâh, and Allâh will give reward to those who are grateful. Surat Al-Umran
1. Those who disbelieve [in the Oneness of Allâh, and in the Message of Prophet Muhammad ], and hinder (men) from the Path of Allâh (Islâmic Monotheism), He will render their deeds vain .
2. But those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and believe in that which is sent down to Muhammad (), for it is the truth from their Lord, He will expiate from them their sins, and will make good their state.
3. That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord. Thus does Allâh set forth their parables for mankind. Surat Muhammad
128. Verily, there has come unto you a Messenger (Muhammad ) from amongst yourselves (i.e. whom you know well). It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty. He (Muhammad ) is anxious over you (to be rightly guided, to repent to Allâh, and beg Him to pardon and forgive your sins, in order that you may enter Paradise and be saved from the punishment of the Hell-fire), for the believers (he is) full of pity, kind, and merciful.
129. . But if they turn away, say (O Muhammad ): \"Allâh is sufficient for me. Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), in Him I put my trust and He is the Lord of the Mighty Throne.\" Surat At-Taubah
So these ayas are proof that Mohammad is the prophet, and there are others but cant put all here.
we go back to the stoning matter and that it is not mentioned in the Quran, well u must know that there are the sciences of the Quran that are the translations of the Quran, because Allah's allmighty words are not like humans they need explanations, so on that basis came the science of hadeeth
figh and tafseer. There were so many issues not explained thouroughly in the Quran, because human beings if u want to explain everything to them in every bit and peice u will have to talk and talk and talk, but Allah all divine in short and precise verses conveys messages to the prophet and it was explained to him by gabriel. So whatever is told to us by the prophet we beleive and do by it because in the Quran Allah allmighty says :
In the name of Allah most Gracious Most Merciful:
7. What Allâh gave as booty (Fai') to His Messenger (Muhammad ) from the people of the townships, - it is for Allâh, His Messenger (Muhammad ), the kindred (of Messenger Muhammad ), the orphans, Al_Masâkin (the poor), and the wayfarer, in order that it may not become a fortune used by the rich among you. And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad ) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allâh. Verily, Allâh is Severe in punishment.
Surat Al-Hashr
33. O you who believe! Obey Allâh, and obey the Messenger (Muhammad ) and render not vain your deeds. Surah Muhammad
32. Say (O Muhammad ): \"Obey Allâh and the Messenger (Muhammad ).\" But if they turn away, then Allâh does not like the disbelievers. Surat Al-'Imran
69. And whoso obeys Allâh and the Messenger (Muhammad ), then they will be in the company of those on whom Allâh has bestowed His Grace, of the Prophets, the Siddiqûn (those followers of the Prophets who were first and foremost to believe in them, like Abu Bakr As_Siddiq ), the martyrs, and the righteous. And how excellent these companions are! Surah An-Nisa'
59. O you who believe! Obey Allâh and obey the Messenger (Muhammad ), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allâh and His Messenger (), if you believe in Allâh and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination.
Surah An-Nisa'
80. He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad ), has indeed obeyed Allâh, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (O Muhammad ) as a watcher over them. Surah An-Nisa'
54. Say: \"Obey Allâh and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (Messenger Muhammad ) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allâh's Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way (i.e. to preach in a plain way).\"
55. Allâh has promised those among you who believe, and do righteous good deeds, that He will certainly grant them succession to (the present rulers) in the earth, as He granted it to those before them, and that He will grant them the authority to practise their religion, that which He has chosen for them (i.e. Islâm). And He will surely give them in exchange a safe security after their fear (provided) they (believers) worship Me and do not associate anything (in worship) with Me. But whoever disbelieved after this, they are the Fâsiqûn (rebellious, disobedient to Allâh). Surah An-Nur
92. And obey Allâh and the Messenger (Muhammad ), and beware (of even coming near to drinking or gambling or Al_Ansâb, or Al_Azlâm, etc.) and fear Allâh. Then if you turn away, you should know that it is Our Messenger's duty to convey (the Message) in the clearest way.
Surat Al-Ma'idah'
So these are some ayas that asks us to obey Allah and the prophet, whatever he says is from Allah, he does not say anything from himself Allah Almighty said
In the Name of God most gracious Most Merciful:
38. So I swear by whatsoever you see,
39. And by whatsoever you see not,
40. That this is verily the word of an honoured Messenger [i.e. Jibrael (Gabriel) or Muhammad which he has brought from Allâh].
41. It is not the word of a poet, little is that you believe!
42. Nor is it the word of a soothsayer (or a foreteller), little is that you remember!
43. This is the Revelation sent down from the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).
44. And if he (Muhammad ) had forged a false saying concerning Us (Allâh),
45. We surely should have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might),
46. And then certainly should have cut off his life artery (Aorta),
47. And none of you could withhold Us from (punishing) him.
48. And verily, this Qur'ân is a Reminder for the Muttaqûn (pious - see V.2:2).
49. And verily, We know that there are some among you that belie (this Qur'ân). [Tafsir At-Tabarî, Vol. 29, Page 68]
50. And indeed it (this Qur'ân) will be an anguish for the disbelievers (on the Day of Resurrection).
51. And Verily, it (this Qur'ân) is an absolute truth with certainty .
52. So glorify the Name of your Lord, the Most Great. SurahAl-Haqqah
So whatever he says is from Allah, he does not fortify issues, when he says sinners to be stonned it means they should be stonned because it is by revelation from Allah, it is mentioned in the hadeeth, and what is in the hadeeth is the truth, because Allah ordered us to obey the profit, So I think this will cut your issue about that it is not mentioned in the Quran.
Quote:Some aspects of Sharee'ah may well have some ethical and moral value. Although I am not religious myself, I recognise that at the base of humans morals and ethics can be derived from religion. The punishments however are an abonimation to mankind and need to be \"abrogated\" to bring it in line with the times we now live in. Why some muslims want to hark back to the savagery of 7th century arabia is beyond me.Islam is not savagery, when u commit something against mankind u have to be punished, so u will not ruin the rest, in the time of the Islamic Khilafa, there was little stealing or fornication it was a clean society, because the Islamic law was implemented exactly as Allah ordered, u say it is not suitable for these days, tell me what is, stealing killing commiting Adultry, u call this civilization, what kind of civilization is this, that u r free to do what u want without being punished. You will say the stealer we will put him in jail, ok they are being put in Jails, do they come out better citezens, no they come out worse, they steal more, but when u cut one mans hand from its limp the others will be afraid and will not steal, just like in a company if u do something wrong, the company will not tell u o never mind it is ok we will be civilized and not punish u, when he is punished the rest will know that there is strong management and they will abide by the rules and regulations. So simple as that
John, God created us he knows what is best for us, if an engineer built a machine of some kind and it needs maintenance would u bring a plumber to fix it, same the human being Allah created us he knows what we think what we feel, he knows what is best for us, so we do not go saying that human laws are better for us from God. This is what I haave for now, I am tired it is quite late, I know it was a very long post, but I hope u c some light between
the lines, and be assested by the site I gave u , Tafseer Ibn Katheer. And start reading Quran verse by verse with its translation, and stop telling us that we do not read the Quran.
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Anyways I will not yet answer u, I will not be hasty, let me gather enough information(this will take time) then u will have a very long post to read.