07-11-2004, 04:45 PM
This is a discussion I had from another forum.
Quote:Now since Allah 1) knows exactly what Christians believe, and 2) knows the exact nature of the doctrine of the Trinity, and 3) intended the Quran to convince the Jews and Christians of the error of their ways, why didn't he tell the Christians exactly what was wrong with their beliefs? What prevented him from saying, "The Christians are mistaken. Jesus is not of one substance with me. There is no three in one when talking about God, there is just one in one, God"?
But the Quran does not do that. Instead, the Quran falsely accuses the Christians of setting up a one of three Trinity, a Trinity of three gods ("They do blaspheme who say: Allah [God] is one of three in a Trinity.") Surah 5: 72-77).
Indeed, the Trinity is a very contriversial issue, even among Christians. Most of whome dont understand what it actualy is and claim that they willa ask God when they go to Heaven. Nevertheless, the issue is whether the Qoran did or did not speak of the true Christian beliefs.
The verses that you refer to are:
<b>They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve. (5:73)</b>
To make the verse simpler we could say that the verse says: <i>Allah is the third of three [Gods].</i> Agreed? So the main question is, how many Gods do Christians believe in? One or three? No matter what they might claim themselves to be a monotheistic religion, what they claim is nothing as compared to what their scriptures and beliefs say. Christianity is not the priests and the Christians. Christianity is the Bibles.
Firstly, lets try and define the Trinity. You used I heard of Christians comparing it with the egg, you compare it with electricity and other physics, but in the end, the Trinity is a Trinity of God(s) and we should understand it in relation to God and not to any form of quantity or entity other than that divine force.
According to Christians, the Holy Spirit, Father, and Jesus (the Son) make up the Trinity. Now the question is, if as Christians claim, the Holy Spirit (HS), Father (F) and Son (S) make up one God. Therefore, the HS, F and S are one entity. Thenagain, we look at what the Christian scriptures have to say. We are told that the Son died as a sacrifice in order for the Father to forgive His creation. One entity? One God? I think not. If Jesus and the Father are one, then saying that the Father died for mankind's sins is just like saying that the Son died for mankind's sins, isnt it? If the Trinity is indeed a belief in one God, then why does this God have to sacrifice itself in order for it to forgive the sins of it's own creation? Not only doesnt that makes sense, but it also goes against the principle of monotheism.
A further proof that Jesus was not one entity with God is that while on the cross, Jesus called out to God and ask Him "Why have You forsaken me?" Here you have God believeing that He has forsaken Himself? I believe not.
In the first proof I gave, it was a spiritual proof that the Trinity could not be of one God, but three. In the second, it was a physical proof that Trinity could not be of one God, but three.
Likewise, due to translations and further simplification of the Bible, the interpetation that Jesus is one with God has been planted within. But the main essense of the basic story still exists and still disproves the fact that Jesus is one with God.
So the question is, was the Qoran inaccurate in it's describtion of the Christians? No. The Qoran spoke the truth because indeed, the Christians do believe in three Gods and yet claim them to be one.
Quote:According to the Quran, these three Christian deities consist of Allah or God, a different and separate "partner" god, which is Jesus, and then another god altogether. This third, separate entity is mistakenly assumed to be Mary, it seems, as Surah 5:116 has Jesus denying that he ever said to mankind:
Here is a verse you refered to in your article:
<b>And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden? (5:116)</b>
How do Christians worship Jesus? Do they bow before his statue? Do they pray to him? Do they praise him and use a rosemary to remember his name? Yes they do. Another question, do Christians bow before the image of Mary? Do they praise her and use a rosemary to remember her name? Yes they do. You might tell me that these things are only done to Mary by the Catholics, to that I would say, at the day the verse was revealed, there was only the Catholics. Mary in the Catholic church is praised as much, if not more, than Jesus himself.
There are similar problems within Islam. There are "Islamic" sects who go to saintly Muslim's graves and ask forgivness there from those saints. This is a grave sin, to turn a saint into a god. And I'm afraid, this is what happened to Mary in the Christian Chruch.
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryd6.htm
From the above link, you can see the titles of the prayers to Mary. Holy Mary, Queen Of Heaven, Holy Queen? Do not these titles given to Mary worthy of a God?
Quote:And what about Mary? If indeed some or many Christians did or do mistakenly treat Mary like a God (and indeed, some seem to do that, e.g., Catholics, but not others, e.g., Protestants), that should make four Christian Gods, not three: The Father, the Mother, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Surely Allah knows the difference between three and four, yet nowhere does the Quran say that Christians worship four gods. It speaks of "the third of three," not "the fourth of four." This missing fourth God indicates that indeed, the writer of the Quran was ignorant of the Holy Spirit's place in the Trinity, and believed that Mary was this third god of the Trinity, and that the Christians worshipped these three gods.
I aught to have read further before making the above reply, oh well, we'll go on.
As I said above, the Protestants didnt exist at the time, so that point is not valid.
Concerning the fourth god point:
The verse according to Yusuf Ali, says:
<b>005.116 </b>
YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
In the other two translations, you have "besides" instead of "derogation". With besides, you could interpet it like you have, as if God is saying that Jesus and Mary and Allah are equal Gods. They stand side by side with God. But if you also have another translation that says "derogation", then "besides" could also mean that you are ignoring Allah or belittling him infront of Jesus and Mary. This is what the verse is saying, "Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods and belittling me in the process?"