Important points raised by Khairan

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Important points raised by Khairan - Muslimah - 05-16-2004

as salam alykom

brother Khairan, well I will not say lack of knowledge but surely u r much confused.

Forms of salat as well u have much consusion about Sobhan Allah but it is good u brought these points now

Pls bring in the specific Ayah with number and Surah and Insh a Allah I will explain.

hopefully for the best for everybody

Important points raised by Khairan - Muslimah - 05-17-2004

1. When the Muslim woman who was being mistreated by her husband came to the Prophet and requested a divorce, she was denied several times because the Prophet did not think the request was appropriate, and that it would be better for her to work out her differences with her husband. Finally, the verse came to him that said "We have heard the argument of the woman who came to you" -- and proceeded to lay down divorce laws for women. In this instance, the Prophet was wrong in his judgement and was corrected by Scriptural revelation.

2. As far as instances where the right thing to do isn't clear, well we just talked about one -- covering the head for women. (although it is already covered)

3. Here's a more serious one: a death sentence for apostates. A great number of Muslims will swear by this. I think it's obscene, and it isn't at all a universally accepted concept.


4. Punishment for homosexuality: according to at least one school of Sunni law, the punishment is death. According to another, the practice should be discouraged but the guilty parties should not be punished at all and their final judgement left to God.


5. You mentioned salat. Muslims don't all offer their prayers in the same way, and don't even agree as to how many times a day they should be performed (Shias do three while Sunnis do five).

6. There is debate as to whether suicide bombing is a permissible tactic in war. (0n this there is fatwas from present scholars about it).

7. Muslims disagree as to whether non-Muslims will all go to Hell. 

This isn't just "interpreting the Qur'an according to our needs." These are major differences sometimes, and especially when we are talking about things like the life and death of other people, they aren't just idiosyncrasies of one group's religious practice. So, how on earth can you claim that the right thing to do is obvious?

Let us take Insh aAllah one point at the time

Important points raised by Khairan - Muslimah - 05-17-2004

1. When the Muslim woman who was being mistreated by her husband came to the Prophet and requested a divorce, she was denied several times because the Prophet did not think the request was appropriate, and that it would be better for her to work out her differences with her husband. Finally, the verse came to him that said "We have heard the argument of the woman who came to you" -- and proceeded to lay down divorce laws for women. In this instance, the Prophet was wrong in his judgement and was corrected by Scriptural revelation.


You are cetainly confused in here.

To start with let us lay down a basis before we carry on. The Messenger (PAPBUH) never made decisions out of his own desire as exactly explained in Quran:"3. Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. * It is only a Revelation revealed." (Quran 53:3-4)

Having that said, we can based on this rule carry on. Allah S&T put the Messenger on the individual basis in evey possible situation a human being may face in order to teach us what to do, including divorce, types of marriage, vowing not to touch wives for a certain period of time. While as u r quite aware the Quran was revealed to him containing rules and regulations regarding different matters as well. Including the issue dealt with in the following Ayahs (I waited for u to specifically tell me the Ayah in vain):

"Indeed Allâh has heard the statement of her (Khaulah bint Tha‘labah) that

disputes with you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) concerning her husband (Aus

bin As-Sâmit), and complains to Allâh. And Allâh hears the argument between you

both. Verily, Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Seer.

2. Those among you who make their wives unlawful to them by (Zihâr

الظهار)[1] (i.e. by saying to them "You are like my mother’s back,") they

cannot be their mothers. None can be their mothers except those who gave them

birth. And verily, they utter an ill word and a lie. And verily, Allâh is

Oft-Pardoning, Oft-Forgiving.

3. And those who make unlawful to them their wives by Zihâr and wish to

free themselves from what they uttered, (the penalty) in that case is the

freeing of a slave before they touch each other. That is an admonition to you

(so that you may not repeat such an ill thing). And Allâh is All-Aware of what

you do.

4. And he who finds not (the money for freeing a slave) must fast two

successive months before they both touch each other. And he who is unable to do

so, should feed sixty Miskîns (poor). That is in order that you may have

perfect Faith in Allâh and His Messenger. These are the limits set by Allâh.

And for disbelievers, there is a painful torment." (Quran 58:1)

In this incidents the man vowed to consider his wife to him as a mother (he literally said to me u r like my mother's back in Arabic the term used here is Zehar derived from back). In other words he made her unlawful to him.

The woman seeing her old husband getting into a serious situation, went to the Messenger to find them a way out. He told her what means that he can not do anything to them and that she can not continue being his wife. She kept talking to him asking for a way out till Allah revealed these Ayahs giving them the solution and of course to anyone who is put into the same situation.

So the Messenger can not enact laws from his own, he always has to wait for Allah. Remember the source of legislation is Allah.

Important points raised by Khairan - Khairan - 05-17-2004

I look forward to hearing responses to these. [Image: smile.gif]

One further comment: Muslimah, I'm not sure what you mean by saying that I am "confused." Again, I've pointed out a number of differences between different communities of Muslims, at least some of which have endured for hundreds of years. Note that I haven't even taken a stand on any of these as to what my own opinion is -- I only note that various opinions do in fact exist. And again (for those who may not have followed the prior discussion), this post was my objection to the idea that we shouldn't question our beliefs because Islam is completely unambiguous about everything.

salaam

Important points raised by Khairan - Muslimah - 05-17-2004

The second situation that involved a divorce case was here, but it was not also the woman who came frequently asking for divorce:

""And (remember) when you said to him (Zaid bin Hârithah رضي الله عنه - the

freed-slave of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم) on whom Allâh has bestowed Grace

(by guiding him to Islâm) and you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم too) have done

favour (by manumitting him): "Keep your wife to yourself, and fear Allâh." But

you did hide in yourself (i.e. what Allâh has already made known to you that He

will give her to you in marriage) that which Allâh will make manifest, you did

fear the people (i.e., their saying that Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم married

the divorced wife of his manumitted slave) whereas Allâh had a better right

that you should fear Him. So when Zaid had accomplished his desire from her

(i.e. divorced her), We gave her to you in marriage, so that (in future) there

may be no difficulty to the believers in respect of (the marriage of) the wives

of their adopted sons when the latter have no desire to keep them (i.e. they

have divorced them). And Allâh’s Command must be fulfilled." (Quran 33:37)

Through these Ayahs Allah made adoption unlawful, when the Messenger (PAPBUH) asked his cousin Zainab Bint Jahash to marry his former slave Zaid (whom he adopted after he refused to re join his own father and leave the Messenger so he freed and adopted him). By this marriage the Messenger wanted to prove equality between Muslims. However, Zainab only accepted because the Messenger asked her.

The marriage was not working, and Zaid went to the Messenger time after time asking him to divorce them. Until the Ayahs' were revealed. It was meant this way, that the Messenger marries the divorcee of his former adopted son in a clear sign of prohibiting adoption.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The third situation involving divorce when a woman went to the Messenger asking for divorce for no obvious reason. She said that her husband is a fine man, but she just can not stand being with him. This is when the Messenger used the rule of a woman to redeem herself as mentioned in Quran.

He told her she can return whatever present she took from him and get the divorce.

So now in which case he misjudged a decision when all where by Allah's decree????

Important points raised by Khairan - Khairan - 05-17-2004

Quote:So now in which case he misjudged a decision when all where by Allah's decree????

I think your and my interpretations of the story are somewhat different. Based on what I myself have read and heard, it is my belief that the Prophet turned the woman away because he did not believe that it was permissible or appropriate within Islam for her to obtain a divorce. She is referred to as "the arguing woman" for a reason -- because she continued to return to the Prophet and demand justice for herself. Finally, the verse which vindicated her was delivered, saying that she in fact did have a right to the legal separation she sought. So, in turning her away, the Prophet was mistaken, although you are correct that he never acted against that which God told him to do.You must understand that my view of him is also as a fallible human being. I do not think he was perfect, and in fact there are at least a few recorded instances where he made mistakes. The Qur'an gives further stories of other Prophets also being fallible and prone to error (though not sin). I am not of the opinion that religious leaders, even divinely guided ones, are or should be perfect. They serve as examples to us specifically because they were able to do what is right and be great human beings DESPITE their flaws.

Important points raised by Khairan - Muslimah - 05-17-2004

as salam alykom

So the case u referred to was the first one, the woman who was called the arguing. Ok the whole surat is actually titled after her.

I am afraid I will repeat what Dan said on the other thread, I clearly explained to u the situation and brought forth the Ayah.

U still insist on your OWN understanding. There is nothing such as our intepretations are different just read the Ayahs brother. Again the woman was not coming back and forth asking for divorce, No her husband vowed to make her like his mother, she was too concerned for him being an old man, wanted to find a way out to annul the vow. She was not asking for divorce.

Insh a Allah I will try to carry on. But I share Dan's advice for u to look for a school and join. I think u need some corrections in many areas.

But with Allah's Will Insh a Allah will try to do what we can to help brother.

where are u located btw????

Important points raised by Khairan - Muslimah - 05-17-2004

3. Here's a more serious one: a death sentence for apostates. A great number of Muslims will swear by this. I think it's obscene, and it isn't at all a universally accepted concept.

I am not sure exactly in which sense the Messenger here would be misjudging a situation.

And I also advise u not to talk on behalf of other Muslims.

waiting for your point exactly and Insh a Allah will continue.

[Image: smile.gif]

Important points raised by Khairan - Khairan - 05-17-2004

Quote:as salam alykomSo the case u referred to was the first one, the woman who was called the arguing. Ok the whole surat is actually titled after her.

I am afraid I will repeat what Dan said on the other thread, I clearly explained to u the situation and brought forth the Ayah.

U still insist on your OWN understanding. There is nothing such as our intepretations are different just read the Ayahs brother.

Insh a Allah I will try to carry on. But I share Dan's advice for u to look for a school and join. I think u need some corrections in many areas.

But with Allah's Will Insh a Allah will try to do what we can to help brother.

where are u located btw????

Muslimah, I absolutely agree with what you say regarding the verses themselves -- those are very clear. However, my contention is on the historical context surrounding the verses, which we obviously don't agree on. By the way, I have met a great many Muslims who agree with my view of that particular moment in history; I was in fact first taught about it when I was young by an aunt, who was explaining to me about divorce and women's rights in Islam, so I am not making this up at whim.oh, I'm in the U.S.

Important points raised by Khairan - Khairan - 05-17-2004

Quote:I am not sure exactly in which sense the Messenger here would be misjudging a situation.And I also advise u not to talk on behalf of other Muslims.

waiting for your point exactly and Insh a Allah will continue.

?? I wasn't saying anything about the Prophet or his opinions on apostasy, if that is what you are asking, just pointing out that Muslims disagree over what the appropriate response to it is. Many Muslims argue that apostasy is punishable by death. I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth here -- I've heard it myself.