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Women In Islam And Christian - lifutushi - 09-13-2004
Assalamu'alaykum....
Whenever the topic of Islam is brought up among Westerners, it has been that the first objection that immediately springs into their minds is: "But women are so extremely oppressed in Islam."
And, "But women are second class citizens in Islam." For example, they see that Muslim women usually observe modest standards in their clothing and they automatically equate their modesty with oppression.
They appear to feel that freedom is in some way directly proportional to how little clothing one wears, and that oppression is directly proportional to the degree of modesty one exhibits in their clothing. now let us see some Islamic view on women...
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"And they (women) have rights similar to those of men over them in a just manner" (Qur'an, 2:228)
"And their Lord has heard them (and He says): Verily! I suffer not the work of any worker, male or female, to be lost. You proceed one from another. So those who fled and were driven forth from their homes and suffered damage for My cause, and fought and were slain, verily I shall remit their evil deeds from them and verily I shall bring them into Gardens underneath which rivers flow. A reward
from Allah. And with Allah is the fairest of rewards." (3:195)
"And covet not the thing in which Allah has made some of you excel others. Unto men a fortune from that which they have earned, and unto women a fortune from that which they have earned. (Envy not one another) but ask Allah of His bounty. Verily! Allah is Knower of all things." (4:32)
"Unto the men (of a family) belongs a share of that which parents and near kindred leave, and unto the women a share of that which parents and near kindred leave, whether it be little or much, a legal share." (4:77)
"And whoso does good works, whether of male or female, and he (or she) is a believer, such will enter paradise and they will not be wronged the dint in a date stone." (4:124)
"And the believers, men and women, are protecting friends one of another; they enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and they establish worship and they pay the poor-due, and they obey Allah and His messenger. As for these, Allah will have mercy on them. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise." (9:71)
"Whosoever does right, whether male or female, and is a believer, him verily We shall quicken with good life, and We shall pay them a recompense in proportion to the best of what they used to do." (16:97)
"And of His signs is this: He created for you spouses from yourselves that you might find tranquillity in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy. Lo, herein indeed are signs for folk who reflect." (30:21)
"Whoso does an ill deed, he will be repaid the like thereof, while whoso does right, whether male or female, and is a believer, (all) such will enter the Garden, where they will be nourished without stint." (40:40)
In the Qur'an, both Adam and Eveshare the blame for eating from the tree. This can be seen in the Qur'an insuch verses as Al-Baqarah(2):36, Al-A'araf(7):22-24. They were also both forgiven by God Almighty for this sin. Actually, in one verse of the Qur'an (Taha(20):121), Adam is specifically blamed.
The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said:
"The best believers are the best in conduct, and the best of you are those who are best to their
wives."
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now, from Biblical view:
1 Timothy 2:11-14 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
1 Corinthians 11:5-10: "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovereddishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels."
1 Corinthians 11:13: "Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God (with her head) uncovered?"
Genesis 3:12-16 "And the man (Adam) said, The woman (Eve) whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and heshall rule over thee."
Leviticus 12:2-5 "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a MALE child: then she shall be unclean SEVEN DAYS; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying THIRTY THREE days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled. But if she bear a FEMALE child, then she shall be unclean TWO WEEKS, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying SIXTY SIX days."
Ecclesiastics 7:26-28 "And I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare....while I was still searching but not finding, I found one upright man among a thousand but not one upright woman among them all".
Leviticus 15:19-30 "And if a woman have an issue (her period/menses), [and] her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.
And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean. And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe [himself] in water, and be unclean until the even. And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe [himself] in water, and be unclean until the even. And if it [be] on [her] bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even. And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean. And if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation; all the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her separation: she [shall be] unclean. Every bed whereon she lieth all the days of her issue shall be unto her as the bed of her separation: and whatsoever she sitteth upon shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her separation. And whosoever toucheth those things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe [himself] in water, and be unclean until the even. But if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And the priest shall offer the one [for] a sin offering, and the other [for] a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness."
What the canonized saints of Christianity said about women:
"Woman is a daughter of falsehood, a sentinel of Hell, the enemy of peace; through her Adam lost paradise"
(St. John Demascene)
"Woman is the instrument which the devil uses to gain possession of our souls" (St. Cyprian)
"Woman is the fountain of the arm of the devil, her voice is the hissing of the serpent" (St. Anthony)
"Woman has the poison of an asp, the malice of a dragon" (St. Gregory)
St. Tertullian, while he was talking to his 'best beloved sisters' in the faith, he said, "Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessitylive too. You are the Devil's gateway: You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: You are the first deserter of the divine law: You are she who persuaded him whom the devil wasn't valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image, man." Once again, St. Augustinewrote to a friend, "What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman."
St. Thomas Aquinas considered women as defective, "As regards the individual nature,woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfectlikeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence." (all these quotations can be found in Karen Armstrong's book, The Gospel According to Woman, London: Elm Tree Books, 1986, pp. 52-62. See also Nancy van Vuuren, The Subversion of Women as Practiced by Churches, tch-Hunters, and Other Sexists Philadelphia: Westminster Press pp.28-30.)
St. Tertullian in his famous treatise 'On The Veiling Of Virgins' wrote, "Young women, you wear your veils out on the streets, so you should wear them in the church, you wear them when you are among strangers, then wear them among your brothers..." Among the Canon laws of the Catholic church today, there is a law that require women to cover their heads in church (Clara M. Henning, " Cannon Law and the Battle of the Sexes" in Rosemary R. Ruether, ed., Religion and Sexism: Images of Woman in the Jewish and Christian Traditions, New York: Simon and Schuster, 1974, p. 272.).
Some Christian denominations, such as the Amish and the Mennonites for example, keep their women veiledto the present day. The reason for the veil, as offered by their Church leaders, is "The head covering is a symbol of woman's subjection to the man and to God" : The same logic introduced by St. Paul in the New Testament (Donald B. Kraybill, The riddle of the Amish Culture, Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press,1989, p. 56.)
Russian Orthodox women are expected to wear a head covering when in the church. Most don't outside of itin America, but many in Russia and many other eastern Orthodox women all over eastern Europe, Greece, and the middle east do wear scarves on their heads all the time when in public
according to the Old Testament, a childless widow must marry her husband's brother, even if he is already married and regardless of her consent, so that she might bear a child from him (Genesis 38).
Further, according to the Bible:
"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives" (Deuteronomy 22:28-30)
One must ask a simple question here, who is really punished, the man who raped the woman or the womanwho was raped? What is to prevent someone from finding the best looking woman in town, raping her, telling everyone about it, and then having the courts force her to be his wife for the rest of her life?
According to Numbers 27:1-11, widows and sisters don't inherit at all. Daughters can inherit only if their deceased father had no sons.
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Wallahu'alam...
Women In Islam And Christian - umm Zachariah - 09-13-2004
Assalamu aleikum,
The 'freedom' for women outside Islam is amazing. Muslim women seem to 'miss' a lot
![[Image: smile.gif]](http://www.islamsms.com/bb/html/emoticons/smile.gif)
Wasalaam
Women In Islam And Christian - umm Zachariah - 09-13-2004
Hi JohnDoe,
I suspected 'we'll meet again' and so we did! My head is covered while I nod it, don't forget THAT... And I enjoy it!
You have a LOT to learn about Islam, that is for sure. The question is, do you want to learn about the teachings of true Islam from the Qur'an and Sunnah or do you prefere otherwise? Think it over and we'll maybe discuss it.
Regards
Women In Islam And Christian - umm Zachariah - 09-13-2004
JohnDoe,
I do the 'short' answering again, it's easier:
Thanks.
Alhamdullillah and IF you are willing it will increase.
You are cathing up and yes even some Muslims need to go to the sources to learn. Islam is a religion and a Muslim is the one that follows it, some manage to do it better and some worse.
But we are all learning along the way and will continue to do so, inshaAllah. To go from worse to better is the thought, not the other way around.
Regards
Women In Islam And Christian - lifutushi - 09-14-2004
JohnDoe...
what's the best way to describe Islam? Al-Qur'an or Taliban?
everybody knows that Al-Qur'an is the main source of Islam, not the Taliban... so why don't you see from the same point?
now we're talking about Islam and Al-Qur'an, not any government in the world...
if you want to refute, refute the Qur'an, if you are true!!!
you comments clearly show that you don't have even a point to refute Al-Qur'an so you find an escape by blaming Taliban... what a pity....
Women In Islam And Christian - umm Zachariah - 09-14-2004
Hi JohnDoe,
Since your opinion is settled, I am SURE you did this investigation carefully by TALKING or WRITING to Muslim women? Just my conclusion since it does not seem like you read what my brother wrote here as an opening to this thread.
Can you give some references to this conclusion? Can you please tell me where in the Qur'an I can read ''Marginalise women, make them inferior and treat them as chattel.'' I thought you did not read the Qur'an - BUT your fellow men in this world never seems to stop surprising you!
When you give me these references I also have a question for you. I am curious of YOUR definition of 'equality for women'. And then it would be preferable from an equal point of view, not a male view!
Regards
Women In Islam And Christian - umm Zachariah - 09-14-2004
JohnDoe, short order again, lack of time for the moment,
Settled via the Qur'an or what?
Subtle not accepted, want references from the Qur'an - you stated this, YOU do the work now!
No definition of equality? I am sure you can do better than that?
Regards
Women In Islam And Christian - umm Zachariah - 09-14-2004
JohnDoe,
If it is vaguely, then I think if you stop there and reflect you have the possibility to catch up with your own thoughts. If you read a line somewhere for example 'no my child you cannot have any sweets', if I do it YOUR way, it means NO SWEETS - final. BUT if I am curious to know WHY, I have to dig a bit deeper, under the surface. Only to satisfy myself to answer the WHY. So then this 'no' can mean; no - because you will get fat, no - because it is not the right day to eat it, no - because your teeth will not feel enjoyment of it, no - there is no money for it today and so forth.
So IF you are satisfied with the first 'no', then it is a choice you have made to stop there. You 'get the point', but to tell the truth, you have only half the truth, but you settle for it. Fine.
BUT then you cannot either continue to state that you know the WHOLE answer, since you have not stretched yourself to be curious enough to KNOW all the answer.
To tell you the truth, it is not I that want the criteria for equality to be met by the Qur'an, it has been settled there FOR ME, by our Creator Allah, SWT. For ME there is no better 'ruler for equality' than Him. Humans cannot set up the right terms for equality, since they often do it according to THEIR criteria and it do differ from person to person! So it will NEVER be total nor fair equality.
Regards
Women In Islam And Christian - umm Zachariah - 09-15-2004
Hi JohnDoe,
I am not avoiding anything, I am trying to make you state what you say. I ask you again then, more precise this time, where in the Qur'an does it say that I cannot drive a car? Where in the Qur'an does it say that if I go out I will be beaten? By WHO - by people that don't approve of my appearence when I show up - THAT may be true. IF you are seriously INTERESTED in understanding the wisdom and reason behind that I cannot have more than one husband we can discuss it.
Why do you assume I have a complex for how I am treated? Have you asked me? You cannot hide behind the term 'Muslims in general', you are writing with one right now and I don't belong to a package. I belong the the Muslim Ummah, but I am still responsible for all the actions and things I do as a individual.
Regards
Women In Islam And Christian - umm Zachariah - 09-15-2004
JohnDoe,
Yes you mentioned your road before, how about taking a new one for a while? Just to test, out of curiosity?
So it is not really what you said, the Qur'an does not forbid me from driving a car or whatever I fancy? That means that you did not tell the truth, didn't it? Oooh I see... the Islamic culture forbids. What has it to do with the Qur'an? If I may put it a bit roughly. I follow the Islamic TEACHINGS not culture or tradition. It is VERY IMPORTANT to distinguish between them. That is why this kind of unnecessary statments has to be gone through over and over again.
What I know I can leave my house without a mahram IF I need to or must. To ask permission may seem strange to you, but then you forget that men and women have different ROLES in Islam, that does NOT mean that we differ in equality, only if you want to interpret another way than Islam tells, then it is up to you. But anyway the womans responsibility, her ROLE, is to in firsthand take care of the husband and children and the home. Just to go out for no reason whatsoever and maybe leave the husband and the children without cocked food for example only to think of herself in firsthand, that is not acceptable. As a wife and mother your family always must come first. (Reminds me of Bush that says that America always must come first, no matter who is stepped on along the way, just compare the expression...) As well as the husbands responsibility in first hand is to have the economical responsibility for the family. That is his role. If he disregard his responsibility the family will suffer and if the wife will disregard her responsibility the family will suffer. So it is really a question of TAKING responsibility for ones duties.
Since women are allowed to go to work, that is also a responsiblity to take care of, so I think that is a good reason to go out. The point with this is that you don't go out for no good reason, only to 'hang around' in the street corner to look at people passing by for example. That is not a good behaviour at all. So when we go out, alone or with mahram "that we don't gaze but lower our looks'. EQUALLY for both sexes. Besides it is a question of trust between the husband and wife too. You tell your wife or husband where you are going. I think the ones that don't appreciate sharing this kind of information, do have something unethical in mind.
About beating, one page you can read is http://www.jannah.org/sisters/end.html.
Yes, really, RACISM is one of the biggest problems today in my mind. I have met it with my hijab and without it before that. Most of it does of course not result in hitting and cutting and murdering, but many enough do.
You tell me what you mean with equality, THEN I will discuss it. You already said you cannot do it, but I'll be generous, I give you one more chance to make a definition of 'equality'. And HOW it is lived by practically outside Islam to be worth the name 'equality'.
Regards