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Strange Things - ronniv93 - 10-28-2004
I understand that Islam is not the Quran alone but is made up of a lot of different things including the hadith and sunnah. I have questions about all of them that maybe someone can help me with.
1. If the Quran is complete, the "final guidance" for mankind, and it commands people to pray, why does it not, then, instruct people HOW to pray? This is learned mainly from sunnah, I believe. Meaning, in most cases someone else has to teach any new Muslim how to pray.
If the details are not contained in the Quran which are supposed to be the direct words of God, then is it really necessary to go through all the rituals and movements? Why wouldn't God be pleased just that we are communicating with him and why would his word need people to explain it?
2. My other issue (at present)
![[Image: smile.gif]](http://www.islamsms.com/bb/html/emoticons/smile.gif)
is about a hadith I read that seems rather odd to me. And that's an understatement. It seems like make believe.Quote:Allah's Apostle said, "(The Prophet) Moses was a shy person and used to cover his body completely because of his extensive shyness. One of the children of Israel hurt him by saying, 'He covers his body in this way only because of some defect in his skin, either leprosy or scrotal hernia, or he has some other defect.' Allah wished to clear Moses of what they said about him, so one day while Moses was in seclusion, he took off his clothes and put them on a stone and started taking a bath. When he had finished the bath, he moved towards his clothes so as to take them, but the stone took his clothes and fled; Moses picked up his stick and ran after the stone saying, 'O stone! Give me my garment!' Till he reached a group of Bani Israel who saw him naked then, and found him the best of what Allah had created, and Allah cleared him of what they had accused him of. The stone stopped there and Moses took and put his garment on and started hitting the stone with his stick. By Allah, the stone still has some traces of the hitting, three, four or five marks. THIS IS WAS WHAT ALLAH REFERS TO IN HIS SAYING:-- "O you who believe! Be you not like those Who annoyed Moses, But Allah proved his innocence of that which they alleged, And he was honorable In Allah's Sight."
And this hadith says that there are 3, 4 or 5 marks left and a different hadith says that there are 6 or 7 on the stone.
Strange Things - Rehmat - 10-28-2004
Before you jump to your conclusions – You better understand the difference between Holy Qur’an and Haddith.
Holy Qur’an is DIVINE and the ‘Word of Allah’ – Much different than the Jewish and Christian ‘Word of God’ – proved to be written by other than those prophets to whom it was originally revealed by ‘God’ or ‘G-d’. Holy Qur’an is the ‘Book of Coeds’ and not a ‘Book of Stories’ from which Hollywood can make movies some Jews can make a lot of cash. However, Holy Qur’an does narrate some of the past events to prove what happened; how happened, and how it was corrupted it by the Rabbis.
Haddith is on the other hand, is NOT DIVINE, but narrated by Muslim scholars through the narrations of the Prophet’s (pbuh) Companion, who learned, witnessed and lived during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). The Haddiths were written during the time of 150-200 years after the death of the Prophet (pbuh). Some one may say, Haddiths are just like Christian Gospels or Jewish Talmud – but then none of the writers of OT, NT, or Talmud met Moses or Christ (which they claim) – proving they were liars and their so-called ‘Word of God’ is also a fabrication.
Holy Qur’an has mentioned on several places to ‘pray as the previous nations were commanded to pray’. Actually, Holy Qur’an goes further and mentions ‘three times’ for the prayers. Now, if someone expect Holy Qur’an, or for that matter, any ‘divine message’ to explain ‘everything in details’ – Then my simple question would be – why bother to send so many prophets to different tribes – most of whom were tortured and killed by the Jews????
A Haddith, like the Verse of Holy Qur’an is not ‘binding’ on a Believer – Because, it could have been one of those ‘fabricated by the Jews, Christians or the Munafiqoon (hypocrite). That why, when Imam Bukhari wrote his ‘Sahi Bukhari’ – He sorted out 3,000 Haddiths out of a collection of 60,000 Haddiths. Furthermore, each Haddith, no matter, which ‘Fiqah’ (Hannafi, Maliki, Hannabli, Shaf’I or Jafar’I) always mentions the original source – The Companion of the Prophet (pbuh) – Which none of the writers of Jewish and Christian writers have done. There are no ‘Haddith R.Vs’ – While both OT and NT are known to be revised (R,V) on several occasions for the last 2000 years.
The one thing, which the self-denying Jews and Christians don’t like to acknowledge that their Popes and Rabbis have ‘the divine right’ to change their so-called ‘Word of God’ – But, fortunately’ not in the case of Holy Qur’an.
Peace in Muslim Palestine!!!!
Strange Things - umm Zachariah - 10-28-2004
Salam,
1. The question maybe that you are asking is - WHY did Allah, SWT send us Messengers and Prophets in the first place? Can be interpreted that way if you don't understand their prescence, what role they had? In that case, the Last Prophet, SAAWS was sent for the same reason as all the others before him.
* To convey the message of Allah, SWT in the clearest way
* To call people to worship Allah, SWT alone
* To be AN EXAMPLE, showing the role of the Messengers
* To give glad tidings and warnings
* To rectify the souls and purify them
* To set aright deviated thoughts and false beliefs
* To establish a plea
* To direct the nations
2. References is appreciated when quoting from the Islamic sources the Qur'an and Hadith, to avoid confusion.
The hadith you refer to has number;
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 616:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "(The Prophet) Moses was a shy person and used to cover his body completely because of his extensive shyness. One of the children of Israel hurt him by saying, 'He covers his body in this way only because of some defect in his skin, either leprosy or scrotal hernia, or he has some other defect.' Allah wished to clear Moses of what they said about him, so one day while Moses was in seclusion, he took off his clothes and put them on a stone and started taking a bath. When he had finished the bath, he moved towards his clothes so as to take them, but the stone took his clothes and fled; Moses picked up his stick and ran after the stone saying, 'O stone! Give me my garment!' Till he reached a group of Bani Israel who saw him naked then, and found him the best of what Allah had created, and Allah cleared him of what they had accused him of. The stone stopped there and Moses took and put his garment on and started hitting the stone with his stick. By Allah, the stone still has some traces of the hitting, three, four or five marks. This was what Allah refers to in His Saying:-- "O you who believe! Be you not like those Who annoyed Moses, But Allah proved his innocence of that which they alleged, And he was honorable In Allah's Sight." (33.69)
Have looked through the rest of Bukhari and Muslim and part of Dawud without success to find another one. What is the reference where you have found ''a different hadith says that there are 6 or 7 on the stone.''?
Regards
Strange Things - ronniv93 - 10-28-2004
Oops.... You're right, umm_Zachariah. I typically would post an exact reference and should have here.
The other reference is also in Sahih Bukhari
Quote:Volume 1, Book 5, Number 277:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "The (people of) Bani Israel used to take bath naked (all together) looking at each other. The Prophet Moses used to take a bath alone. They said, ‘By Allah! Nothing prevents Moses from taking a bath with us except that he has a scrotal hernia.’ So once Moses went out to take a bath and put his clothes over a stone and then that stone ran away with his clothes. Moses followed that stone saying, ‘My clothes, O stone! My clothes, O stone!’ till the people of Bani Israel saw him and said, ‘By Allah, Moses has got no defect in his body.’ Moses took his clothes and began to beat the stone." Abu Huraira added, "By Allah! There are still six or seven marks present on the stone from that excessive beating."
Strange Things - umm Zachariah - 10-28-2004
Salam,
Thanks for reference.
Now that you have at least two hadiths telling the same story about Moses then it is high time to look at what is it telling you. Time to read it.
Here is a sense moral that you really should be concentrating on. Allah, SWT is clearing Mosa, AS from the bad rumours that people have made up about him.
Strange? - I think it is a very good reminder - be HONEST and DO NO spread LIES!
Regards
Strange Things - ronniv93 - 10-28-2004
Salam,
Thanks for reference.
Quote:Now that you have at least two hadiths telling the same story about Moses then it is high time to look at what is it telling you. Time to read it.
So then you believe this story to be true, I assume?
Quote:Here is a sense moral that you really should be concentrating on. Allah, SWT is clearing Mosa, AS from the bad rumours that people have made up about him.
But the story doesn't seem.... a little silly to you? I mean, all these people bathing in an open pool or body of water together and they're all trying to see Moses' private parts?
And why would God, the Creator of heaven and earth, the High and Exalted One care about clearing Moses' name and proving to other human beings how "ENDOWED" Moses was physically?
Wouldn't this action on Allah's part contradict Islamic teachings about modesty, too? Because if we are to believe this story to be true, then Allah is actually the one responsible for exposing Moses' private parts to others.
But the story seems nonsensical to me anyway.
A stone "running" away from a person and a person yelling at it AS IF it can respond and obey???
You really don't think this story is strange?
It sounds more like a fable to me.
Strange Things - umm Zachariah - 10-28-2004
Salam,
No I don't think it is strange. I see the wisdom that Allah, SWT is forwarding to the believers.
If you read the tafsir to the Qur'an 33:69, since the first Hadith that you refer to is connected to it, perhaps you better understand the wisdom in this.
The sense moral is that there is a lesson to learn of this, the hadith is like a reminder to the believers of the Qur'an to avoid to be addicted to slander and repeat the same mistake as the people of Musa, AS did, so it is today, and have been for over the last 1400 years, a reminder to the people that raises charges and slander against the Prophet Muhammad, SAAWS for example that he did edit the Qur'an himself, asthagfirullah, among other slanderous things.
A very good thing to bear in mind, if one is not sure of something, it is better for one self to say nothing instead of spreading vicious lies.
Regards
Strange Things - Muslimah - 10-28-2004
as salam alykom brother and sister on this thread
peace to u ronniv
rehmet Mash a Allah may Allah increase your knowledge. however, u must be aware of course that hadeeth is quite divine. Alhamdulelah we have a good informative thread
http://www.islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=1842
u may follow there
with all due respect to both my sister and brother (rehmat I assume u r a brother), u could not see the hidden aim of ronniv. This afternoon I was reading thru another thread and was preparing to ask her a question that I dont need to do now. I was going to ask her why is she on an Islamic forum?
To me what she is aiming for and unfortunately she is not up to the task, is to prove Quran being fabricated.
Could not u see her question is if the Quran was complete why did we have to learn prayer in Sunnah.
Well ronniv, usually I lean towards answering questions regardless of the poster's intention even if the intention is so clear for others to benefit.
However, in your case, unfortunately u r not even consistent in your question, not trained enough to do it.
But still I will answer your points although there is a point u never replied to it. will talk about it later.
Quran is the word of Allah, was not changed. we explained to u about the 7 readings which does not change one single word only pronunciation. If u can not understand this, it is your own problem.
What was added only the dots as we explained before.
Even the 7 readings were revealed thru Jebreel to make recitation easy on the Arabs.
If a Muslim attacks Quran as u brought in the other link then he is not a Muslim.
In the anti Islam sites, they even dont fight in a logical way, but what they do for people like u, is they post Ayahs from Quran but missing parts.
So if u want to know why we learnt prayer from Sunnah follow the link I gave to rehmat.
Also I will appreciate if u tell us why u r here? Obviously u read Quran, u feel somehow insecured specially with reverts around u, telling u u might be wrong.
We are not pushing u for anything. U came here willingly. If u need to learn stay and learn.
Strange Things - ronniv93 - 10-28-2004
Only have a few minutes right now, not enough time to respond to everything in your post, Muslimah.
But let me say this very quickly and clearly.
I am *NOT* here to try to prove the Quran is fabricated. I don't even know what that would mean, practically. Does that mean you think I'm here to prove that the Quran wasn't written by Muhammad? That it was made up by other people??
Not reallly sure.
But, I am here to do no such thing. Obviously, I don't believe in the Quran as I am still Christian. That does not equate to me being here to prove some supposed fabrication.
Yes, I ask questions. I supply answers when asked. I read responses posted to me.
I happen to enjoy dialogue and learning and sharing thoughts, ideas, facts, information with the hopes of intention of learning and growing more. Period.
Strange Things - Muslimah - 10-28-2004
Thank u for clearing your aim, well one important point, the QURAN WAS NOt WRITTEN by Mohamed peace and prayer be upon him. It was revealed from Allah to him
u never answered this point:
ronniv make up your mind:
(To me, Jesus Christ *is* the Word of God. He is described as the Son of God in the Gospels; not as some physical son as if our Creator had some sort of intercourse with a human being to produce Him. I believe that Jesus Christ has always existed and always will. He came to be the mediator of a new covenant and redemeed mankind by being the sinless, spotless sacrifice for our sins.)
(For the Christian, Jesus is/was God manifest in the flesh.)
Now which is which
u said we give a lot of home work, simply because u come with different points but not well coordinated or organized. we must provide answers.