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America Cannot "make" Iraq Democratic - Peace in Ireland - 10-30-2004
Ok, I'll try to keep this short. I've been contemplating the Iraq war a lot recently and I've come to these conclusions:
The U.S. war against Iraq is, obviously, wrong on so many levels. However, the liberal argument that at least America will spread Democracy to Iraq is just as weak. Iraq is not ready for democracy. If true democratic elections were to be held, Americans would not want to see who the Iraqi people choose to lead them.
Democracy cannot be forced. America was once a land for rich White free men. Women didn't vote, Blacks were slaves, Indians were non-human, and the only people who mattered were rich White guys. Democracy came from internal struggle and reform. The argument that the U.S. has to spread democracy around he world is pointless.
There has to date been no major feminist movement, no secular movement, and no ethnic movements for peace in Iraq or Afghanistan. Without these, Democracy is impossible.
So I think that the next time Americans say that the U.S. is doing the arab world a favor, we should counter that if Iraqis want democracy, they will demand it. Until then, no amount of bombs or invasions will bring it quicker. It didn't work when the British were imperializing the world and it isn't working now.
Democracy, according to Socrates, is the fairest form of government. It is also the most desireable, but it cannot be forced. It has to start from the ground up.
America Cannot "make" Iraq Democratic - Rehmat - 10-30-2004
Quote:There has to date been no major feminist movement, no secular movement, and no ethnic movements for peace in Iraq or Afghanistan. Without these, Democracy is impossible.
Well, well - What we got here?
Islam is the most 'feminist religion' than any other religion and all the man-made philosophies. The so-called 'feminist movements' in the West are nothing but an indirect assualt on the family by Atheists and Freemasonry, for the sole purpose of population control - 'The fittest to survive'.
Read this link to find out about the 'Mother of American Feminism' - A Jewess communist and CIA agent!
http://www.namebase.org/steinem.html
Now coming to the West's greatest 'hype' - The 'democracy'. If you believe its definition "Government by the people; for the people". Then my simple question would be - "Where is it practiced, dear?" NOT in United States or Israel, for sure. In the first, only 50% voters participates and the Jewish lobby AIPAC decides, who should be in the White House - And in the later, 20% of its Arab population, like millions of Blacks in USA, has NO right to vote.
Only Islam is 'the true democratic system' which looks after the interests of both the minority 'elites' and the vast majority 'poor'.
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America Cannot "make" Iraq Democratic - Muslimah - 10-30-2004
Bismillah
Peace to u PII I think again taking a break in the lazainess valley.
Well I must give u credit on the conclusion of wronging the US war against Iraq although on another thread of yours too I explained why we are being attacked by Christains and not Jews.
One more point Rehmat, Islam is not a religion of femisim, if we say so then we are seggregating the Ummah. Islam is the religion that provides proper and I emphasis proper rights to the whole creation including even animals and plants according to what the Creator Sees best.
If we can say, Islam just re established women's rights which were already there.
At the end PII I echo what rehmat said about Islam being the solution for us, but when we dont know. Soon Insh aAllah
America Cannot "make" Iraq Democratic - Dan - 10-31-2004
Bismillah
I agree with PII. There has never been an instance in the history of mankind of another country successfully forcing democracy on a populace. The people have to desire a democracy. They have to see it as a better alternative. By the US invading (the supposedly lighthouse of democracy... did someone say representative republic?... just checking), we have only become an example of how a democracy is aggresive. Would anyone become communist because an invading country said that we should? Exactly.
Peace
America Cannot "make" Iraq Democratic - Rehmat - 10-31-2004
Quote:One more point Rehmat, Islam is not a religion of femisim, if we say so then we are seggregating the Ummah.
Here we go again! Do you know the meaning of 'Feminist movement'? These women are fighting for the so-called 'equality with male gender in everything' - And they mean everything - Except that the male should share 'pregnancy too'!
'Ummah' mean the 'unity of the Believers' - but under 'Islamic seggregation' of the two sexes.
Let me elaborate what I meant by Islam being 'the religion of feminism'.
Holy Qur’an, unambiguously and coherent, applies to women and men equally. accordingly to Allah’s final message, both sexes share a common fate, and are subject to the same existential conditions, with the same spiritual potential
and same purpose of being. Now, is it conceivable that this religion (i am not talking about the cultural or ethnic deviations) justifies regulations, which are hostile to women?
Without doubt, women played a major role in the life of the Prophet (pbuh) and were held in the highest esteem by him. Even renowned muslim feminists such as Fatimah Mernissi accepts this in her book ‘Women and Islam: An Historical
and Theological Inquiry’. in spite of the western stereotype conviction, which has become a cliché, that Muslim women are prevented from developing their personality, chained to the kitchen sink, stifled and enslaved – 4 out of 5 new converts to Islam in the united states are women.
Islam gave women some rights (marriage and divorce by consent, inheritance, education political and legal rights) 1400 years ago, which were unknown to their Christian and Jewish sisters until 19th century. Of course Islam’s scheme for life is from ‘that world’. It is an alternative that confronts the so-called modern world, its values, agnosticism, and ‘anything goes’ mentality, with a genuine counter-project that only appears to be outdated because it is timeless – for example:
1. Man and woman are biologically and therefore, both physically and psychologically different.
2. The happiness of man and woman in their partnership is rooted in their polarity.
3. Adult love, but children too, find ideal conditions for development in only marriage conceived as a partnership.
4. Unfettered sex can become destructive both for the individual and society.
The western civilization is already witnessing the casting of doubts on fashionable facets of the sexual and feminist revolution. AIDS alone has forced people to rethink their manners in more than one respect. the first manageress in
the US begin to express regret at their now irrevocable decision not to have children for the sake of their careers – at having placed too much emphasis
on ‘sisterhood’ at the expense of ‘motherhood’. More women than before are now convinced that pure imitation of man is not the best way of liberating women. in the US, as in Europe, it is once again fashionable among formerly ‘swinging’ students to ‘go steady’. In 1968, Vance Packard in his book ‘Sexual Wilderness’ coined the term ‘sex jungle’ for the excesses of the sexual revolution in his country – the USA
For Islam, man and woman have the same dignity, but different tasks; they are of the same values, but have different abilities; they are equal before Allah, but have
different roles in life. the question of whether or not this is ‘modern’ is irrelevant.
Wa Salaam.
America Cannot "make" Iraq Democratic - Muslimah - 10-31-2004
Bismillah
wa alykom as salam
Rehmat I exactly know what femisim is and when it started it is exactly as u defined excpet some of the extremists even ask for men to share pregnancy.
any way jazakum Allah khairan for elaboration.
America Cannot "make" Iraq Democratic - Deen - 10-31-2004
Back to the original point of imposing democracy in the middle east, PII you are talking about the possible styles and means one can adopt to enforce/bring democracy.
Primarily, we should be asking ourselves can democracy ever be implanted in the middle east/muslim world, then we will realise if it is worth talking about the styles and means.
It does not matter if you drop "democratic" bombs from F16s or use the peaceful means, the fact is democracy in the middle east will always be difficult to take root. This is because those who wish to spread democracy to a "backward people" have failed to realise and understand the unique creed/aqeedah which the muslims embrace.
The Islamic creed is such that it provides solutions for all of mans problems he may face in his lifetime.
[الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِى وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الأِسْلاَمَ دِيناً]
(This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.) This, indeed, is the biggest favor from Allah to this Ummah, for He has completed their religion for them, and they, thus, do not need any other religion or any other Prophet except Muhammad. This is why Allah made Muhammad the Final Prophet and sent him to all humans and Jinn. Therefore, the permissible is what he allows, the impermissible is what he prohibits, the Law is what he legislates and everything that he conveys is true and authentic and does not contain lies or contradictions. (Tafsir by Ibn-Kathir)
Due to the fact that muslims already have a creed which dictates how muslims should live their lives, there is no room for muslims to adopt democracy. This is why the non-muslims have always found it difficult to impose democracy upon the muslims.
As for christianity and judaism etc, these are all spiritual creeds which do not provide <b>comprehensive</b> solutions for man to solve his daily affairs. Therefore, it is innevitable for democracy to be implemented upon these people as man provides solutions as their creeds lack the ability. This is what happened in the industrial revolution where the church ruled in collaboration with the King to justify his actions. There came a time when religion was seperated from the states affairs and innevitably, since religion played no part in ruling, man became the law maker.
As for democracy itself, it is a tried and tested system which even the founding forefathers (Greeks) rejected as a system which is impossible to implement.
So why spread a failed/rejected system upon a people whom Allah SWT defines as the best people ever to be sent to mankind;
[كُنتُمْ خَيْرَ أُمَّةٍ أُخْرِجَتْ لِلنَّاسِ]
(You are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind;) means, the best of peoples for the people.
The meaning of the Ayah is that the Ummah of Muhammad is the most righteous and beneficial nation for mankind. Hence Allah's description of them,
[تَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَتَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ وَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ]
(you enjoin Al-Ma`ruf and forbid Al-Munkar and believe in Allah) [3:110].
I hope that little peice helps, even though I think many muslims have an incorrect understanding of democracy.
America Cannot "make" Iraq Democratic - Peace in Ireland - 10-31-2004
I agree with both Deen and Dan (or 'D Squared' as I will refer to you as. God that was corney.) Islam already provides a lot of instruction for its people, therefore Democracy would have a hard time finding fertile soil, but I believe it could. Whether it will or not is another thing, it's impossible to tell.
As for Rehmat, his nearly insane obession with the Jews is a bit frightening. But aside from that, I would like to comment on his view of feminism.
Western Feminism is not, and never has been, a destructive force. Feminism is why women get to vote in the United States, why they can own land, why then can have jobs, why they can dress as they please, why they can divorce their husbands, etc. Before feminism and sufferage, Women were practically enslaved by men in America. Further, population control has little to do with feminism, but even assuming you are right and feminism contributed to population control, this is something to be celebrated. Overpopulation causes poverty, unhealthy living conditions, and strife. Look no further than India and China. Too many people + not enough resouces = bad.
As for your comment about the "millions" of Blacks were have no right to vote in the USA, you may want to check the U.S. Constitution which garantees the vote to all people regardless of sex, color, religion, race, ethnicity, or nationality. America has laws against letting convicts vote, which disproportionatly affects African-Americans. This is unfortunate and wrong and in need of serious reform, but just for your general knowledge, Blacks may vote in the United States.
Getting back to Democracy however, the United States is by no means a full Democracy, and I have never made that claim. We are still a fledgling Democracy. It started out that only rich, white men got to vote, but over the years we have pushed for more Democracy and won. America is now more Democratic than we have ever been. We still have a long way to go, but the rate at which Democracy has been rising in the United States far surpasses that of most Muslims nations (I'm not saying that America is better, because it certianly is not. I'm just saying that America has had the most rapid changes in Democracy than, say, Iraq.)
As an aside Rehmat, would you like to explain your disdain for aethiests and freemasons?
America Cannot "make" Iraq Democratic - Deen - 11-01-2004
PII, I came across the following article via email related to democracy in the middle east which is interesting. It points to the fact that the more one uses a word/phrase it seems to become dirty as time goes by.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7190.htm
War makes democracy a dirty word
By Adele Horin
10/31/04 "SMH" -- Democracy is messy, Donald Rumsfeld, the US Defence Secretary, said. And he wasn't talking about the interminable US election, with its hanging chads, dodgy voter rolls and court challenges. He was talking about poor, chaotic, bloodied Iraq, soon to hold its own elections at the point of a gun.
All the reasons for the invasion of Iraq have been exposed as lies, and this week ASIO's chief, Dennis Richardson, confirmed the commonsense appraisal that the world has been made more dangerous, not safer, as promised.
The last big lie to unravel is Iraq's role as a beacon of democracy in the Middle East, lighting the way for other regimes. Eighteen months after the statue of Saddam Hussein fell, the naive belief that the statues of other despots might start to look shaky - that a democratic domino effect would ripple through the region - is being cruelly exposed as idiocy.
All the signs are that anti-American anger in the Middle East is at an all-time high, mostly because of the war in Iraq, and that the invasion and its aftermath, rather than promoting democracy in the region, has set it back.
Experts on the Middle East report that the example of the Iraq disaster has strengthened the hand of the despots and undermined the position of reformers and moderates.
President George Bush said last year, "A new regime in Iraq would serve as a dramatic and inspiring example of freedom for other nations in the region."
Other neo-cons in the regime went further: Paul Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld's deputy, claimed even modest democratic progress in Iraq would "cast a very large shadow, starting with Syria and Iran, and across the whole Arab world". And Richard Perle, chairman of the Defence Policy Board, said a reformed Iraq "has the potential to transform the thinking of people around the world about the potential for democracy, even in Arab countries where people have been disparaging".
But as thousands of Iraqis flee to neighbouring countries, as Al-Jazeera television and the internet bring images of the killing, looting and social dislocation into homes around the Middle East, the mood against America and what it stands for is hardening.
Shibley Telhami, a Middle East specialist at the University of Maryland, supervised a poll of 3300 people in six Arab countries in May. Biased towards the urban and educated, it covered Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the United Arab Emirates. He told US National Public Radio last week that people's faith in America had deteriorated. "They don't believe American foreign policy is motivated by freedom and democracy. And what they see in Iraq terrifies them."
In none of the countries did more than 6 per cent think the Iraqi people were better off after the war, and overwhelming proportions thought they were worse off. Between 64 per cent (Lebanon) and 94 per cent (Egypt) said the war would bring more terrorism towards the US, not less.
The Washington-based Pew Research Centre, which conducts regular global public opinion polls, commented last year that the image of the US in the Middle East has been dismal for some time. But a poll taken last year showed it had gone beyond "mere loathing". In Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan and Kuwait overwhelming majorities believed the US may some day threaten their country, and they were disappointed the Iraqi military had put up so little resistance. Samir Taki, from Damascus University, conducted a regional survey for the European Union and found that 90 per cent and more of the populations considered America the enemy.
Rather than Iraq becoming a beacon of change, it has become a barrier to change in the Middle East. Strongman rulers use the bloodshed and chaos in Iraq to remind their populations of the relative stability they enjoy.
Robert Malley, head of the International Crisis Group, said recently that moderates and reformers in these countries are now easily discredited. Defenders of the status quo accuse them of being "the Trojan horses for the architects of regime change in Washington".
In Syria democracy has become a dirty word for its associations with the US and its values. A Syrian democracy advocate, Samir Taki, told National Public Radio reporter Deborah Amos that he can't use the word "democracy" any more: "It is easier to speak about 'participation' than to speak about 'democracy' - unfortunately."
People lucky enough to have seen the splendid documentary The Control Room, about Al-Jazeera, will remember the poignant moment when an urbane producer for the Qatar-based television network, surveying the disastrous images from Iraq, remarked that moderates like him would no longer have a place.
Sadly, as Malley has pointed out, aspiration for change had been growing stronger in the Middle East. For example, until Bush named Iran as part of the "axis of evil", the moderates there had been getting the upper hand.
Optimists argue that Iraq needs more time to be the shining beacon of freedom Bush promised. But it is hard to believe democracy can take root when it is imposed by a hated invader. Democracy flourishes when it is home-grown, promoted from leaders within.
And just imagine if, against all odds, a version of democracy did take hold across the Middle East. Given the intense and pervasive anti-American sentiment, elections would probably lead to the rise of Islamic governments hostile to the US. Democracy can indeed be messy.
Copyright: SMH - http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/10/29/1099028204397.html
America Cannot "make" Iraq Democratic - Peace in Ireland - 11-01-2004
I don't think I could agree with Deen more. "Democracy" has become an extremely dirty word in parts of the world. The Bush administration has bombed the crap out of Afghanistan and Iraq in the name of Democracy, which made it look like Democracy was the way of bombs and war. If Bush were to have faught this war in the name of oil, money, and power, it would be truer to real life. Democracy has almost always been anti-war.
I was listening to a speaker on NPR (National Public Radio) who said that if Iraqis were now given real, true Democracy, America would not want to see who they elected. If we ever want to see true Democracy in the middle east, we have to stop giving it a bad name by waging wars in its name. Withdrawing from the middle east, not supporting Israel, and discontinuing the practice of taking arab oil at robber baron prices are three majot steps America needs to take.
The war was wrong, I knew that from the start. But genuine Democracy is still possible, but not while the U.S. continues to be the international bully.