Need clarification from CC. - Printable Version

Need clarification from CC. - Printable Version

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Need clarification from CC. - wel_mel_2 - 06-19-2006

Bismillah:

Salam CC.

Are you ignoring my question in response to your explanation about Trinity (i.e if you as a man told your wife a secret, will you as a father and as a son know that secret as well or not?) or you did not see this question at all?

Will you as a man, son and father know ANYTHING said by any of those 3 persons or no??

Salam

Wael.

Need clarification from CC. - Curious Christian - 06-19-2006

Quote:Bismillah:

Salam CC.

Are you ignoring my question in response to your explanation about Trinity (i.e if you as a man told your wife a secret, will you as a father and as a son know that secret as well or not?) or you did not see this question at all?

Will you as a man, son and father know ANYTHING said by any of those 3 persons or no??

Salam

Wael.

I wasn't ignoring you. I am getting asked a lot of questions by a lot of different people here lately and am trying answer them all....but hey, wait a minute, this site is supposed to be for me learning about Islam! Maybe I should start a website called ChristianMessage.com and invite you over to discuss these things...then I wouldn't be alone in my defense of the Trinity. :)

I am just kidding of course. I don't mind answering questions. If anything, our dicussions have strengthend my own convictions about the truth as revealed in the Bible.

"Are you ignoring my question in response to your explanation about Trinity (i.e if you as a man told your wife a secret, will you as a father and as a son know that secret as well or not?) or you did not see this question at all?

Will you as a man, son and father know ANYTHING said by any of those 3 persons or no??"

I can't say that I fully understand your question. I can see what you are driving at though with your question. The question is simple. God can do all things. God does things and has done things since before the dawn of time which humans do not and cannot understand. Does the pot understand the work of the potter? No. Such are we, infants of intellect, in comparison to our creator.

God exists Father, Son and Holy Spirit in perfect unison and mission. Do I understand the inter-workings of their relationship??? No. Does anybody? No.

Need clarification from CC. - wel_mel_2 - 06-20-2006

Bismillah:

Quote:I wasn't ignoring you. I am getting asked a lot of questions by a lot of different people here lately and am trying answer them all....but hey, wait a minute, this site is supposed to be for me learning about Islam! Maybe I should start a website called ChristianMessage.com and invite you over to discuss these things...then I wouldn't be alone in my defense of the Trinity. :)

:) You dont need to start a new website CC, you can simply invite your Christians friends over here to discuss and hear more views ;)

Quote:I can't say that I fully understand your question.

Yes i guess you didnt.

Ok, one of the brothers asked you how do you understand the Trinity. then you replied:

"simple"

am a man

am a father (father of my son)

am a son (son of my father)

then you concluded:

i am three.

so in response to the above answer i asked you "f you AS A MAN told your wife a secret, will YOU AS A FATHER and AS A SON know this secret as well?

means since you are the same person who is a MAN, and you are the same person who is FATHER, and you are the same person who is a SON, naturally you will know ANYTHING said by YOURSELF. (man, father and son). you follow??

will this example you give will perfectly match with Trinity ? Father, son and holy ghost???? is God the Father knew something that unknown to God the son and God the holy ghost?

ok another example, if you as a man died (may Allah give you long life till you accept Islam :) ) will you as father and son die also ??? naturally YES because you are the same person.

will this example match perfectly with trinity? father, son and holy ghost?

Salam

Wael.

Need clarification from CC. - Curious Christian - 06-20-2006

Quote:Bismillah:

:) You dont need to start a new website CC, you can simply invite your Christians friends over here to discuss and hear more views ;)

Yes i guess you didnt.

Ok, one of the brothers asked you how do you understand the Trinity. then you replied:

"simple"

am a man

am a father (father of my son)

am a son (son of my father)

then you concluded:

i am three.

so in response to the above answer i asked you "f you AS A MAN told your wife a secret, will YOU AS A FATHER and AS A SON know this secret as well?

means since you are the same person who is a MAN, and you are the same person who is FATHER, and you are the same person who is a SON, naturally you will know ANYTHING said by YOURSELF. (man, father and son). you follow??

will this example you give will perfectly match with Trinity ? Father, son and holy ghost???? is God the Father knew something that unknown to God the son and God the holy ghost?

ok another example, if you as a man died (may Allah give you long life till you accept Islam :) ) will you as father and son die also ??? naturally YES because you are the same person.

will this example match perfectly with trinity? father, son and holy ghost?

Salam

Wael.

My analogy wasn't perfect. But yes if I as a man told my wife a secret then I as a Father and as a Son would know the secret too.

Need clarification from CC. - wel_mel_2 - 06-20-2006

Bismillah:

Quote:My analogy wasn't perfect. But yes if I as a man told my wife a secret then I as a Father and as a Son would know the secret too.

A N D... if you die (long life to you and your family) simultaneously the father (YOU) and the son (YOU) will also die.

now the question arise, do you believe that God the father is all knowing and that God the son is NOT? Do you believe that God the Holy Spirit is all knowing and the father is NOT? Or all these three are ALL KNOWING?

Do you believe that if God the son died, simultaneously God the father and God the Holy Spirit will also die (SINCE ALL OF THEM ARE ONE)?

Salam

Wael.

Need clarification from CC. - Curious Christian - 06-21-2006

Quote:Bismillah:

A N D... if you die (long life to you and your family) simultaneously the father (YOU) and the son (YOU) will also die.

now the question arise, do you believe that God the father is all knowing and that God the son is NOT? Do you believe that God the Holy Spirit is all knowing and the father is NOT? Or all these three are ALL KNOWING?

Do you believe that if God the son died, simultaneously God the father and God the Holy Spirit will also die (SINCE ALL OF THEM ARE ONE)?

Salam

Wael.

God isn't bound by questions like this. You are trying to catch me in a question. I know where you are going with this.

The answer is that Jesus' spirit upon his death on the cross (his bodily death), continued and never "wasn't".

You may as well ask the old question, "Can God create a rock that He cannot lift?"

Need clarification from CC. - wel_mel_2 - 06-21-2006

Bismillah:

Quote:God isn't bound by questions like this. You are trying to catch me in a question. I know where you are going with this.

The answer is that Jesus' spirit upon his death on the cross (his bodily death), continued and never "wasn't".

You may as well ask the old question, "Can God create a rock that He cannot lift?"

Such question is asked by an atheist CC, and am not.

am only trying to use my intellect which God has given me. And so am not going to ask again if my questions bothered you. you may continue asking about Islam. most welcome.

Salam

Wael.

Need clarification from CC. - Dan - 06-21-2006

Bismillah

This question has God bound by space and time: "Can God create a rock that He cannot lift?" For in order for something to be moved, it must travel in space. It must also be limited by time because there is a beginning action for the movement then a conclusion.

Muslims believe that Allah is not bound by space and time. He Created them. Christians believe that God IS bound by space and time because Jesus was fully human and divine. In order for Jesus to exist on earth, he had to take up a space and only that space. If Jesus (in his bodily form) was in more than one place then he is not fully human. Jesus was also bound by time, birth, maturation, and death. Even his accension to heaven had to involve both time and space. This concpet has the Creator bound by his own creation.

Like in the pottery analogy, if I make a vase, is part of my essence, my being in that vase? No. but people can know that i made that vase due to the clues of style and art that are in that vase. I am not bound by the vase yet people can still get to know me on some levels. But since that vase is not who I am then they can never know me fully.

I am also wondering something else. Jesus is fully divine and his body was raised from the dead to live eternally, am I correct? If that is correct, then does that mean when Jesus went to heaven that all of the dead skin cells, hair, blood, etc that he shed over the course of his life also went to heaven with him? If they remained behind, does not that mean that part of God died since Jesus was fully divine? If not, then all those cells are still living outside of Jesus so there are millions of pieces of God?

Need clarification from CC. - Curious Christian - 06-21-2006

Quote:Bismillah:

Such question is asked by an atheist CC, and am not.

am only trying to use my intellect which God has given me. And so am not going to ask again if my questions bothered you. you may continue asking about Islam. most welcome.

Salam

Wael.

I was just saying that your specific question was leading to a question in which the answer was going to be something which is outside of human understanding.

Need clarification from CC. - Curious Christian - 06-21-2006

Quote:I am also wondering something else. Jesus is fully divine and his body was raised from the dead to live eternally, am I correct? If that is correct, then does that mean when Jesus went to heaven that all of the dead skin cells, hair, blood, etc that he shed over the course of his life also went to heaven with him? If they remained behind, does not that mean that part of God died since Jesus was fully divine? If not, then all those cells are still living outside of Jesus so there are millions of pieces of God?

Jesus was fully man AND fully God.