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Is it possible for God to come in Human form? - dattaswami - 09-18-2006
<b>Is it possible for God to come in Human form?</b>
How can one argue that the Lord cannot come down in the human form? If He is incapable of doing so, He cannot be omnipotent. One need not argue that though the Lord is capable, there is no necessity of such human form. You may not have that necessity. Are you the only human being on this whole earth? Have you taken the opinion of all the human beings to say like this? There are several devotees who belong to Nivrutti and desire for the Lord in human form to see (Darsanam), to touch (Sparsanam), to hear the knowledge and clarify their doubts (Sambhashanam) and to live along with the Lord (Sahavasa) for achieving these three for a long time. The main purpose is preaching the divine knowledge and clarify the doubts.
The statues or photos or energetic forms or space cannot preach the knowledge and that is against the universal observation (perception). Preaching of the knowledge by the human forms of the Lord like Krishna, Jesus etc is observed universally and accepted perception. Such universal observation is according to the rules of the nature. When something is possible through a simple way by following the rules of the nature, is it not foolish to do the same simple thing in the complicated way violating the rules of the nature? When water is available in plenty from the tap, what is the necessity of producing water by forcing Hydrogen and Oxygen to react with the help of an electric arc? To show the production of the water by this reaction, this experiment can be performed once but not every time whenever water is required. To show the super power of the Lord a statue or a photo or the energetic form or even formless space may talk once.
But to preach the spiritual knowledge continuously, the Lord need not talk continuously through statues or photos or energetic forms or space. Some devotee might have experienced such super power in some place and in some time. Such experience is not supported by simultaneous universal observation. When you are seeing the moon in the sky, others are also observing the same moon simultaneously. This is required to authorise any experience. When this authorisation is absent, your experience may be true or might have been due to some psychological disorder. The existence of such psychic experience is also observed in this world. Therefore we cannot isolate the possibility of these two cases in your experience
Therefore there is a necessity for the human form of the Lord and since the Lord is omnipotent, He is coming down in the human form. There cannot be any further argument on this point. I know you are worried that the Lord is modified into the human body and thus the unchangeable Lord has to be changed. Do not worry about this point, because the Lord is never modified into the human body. He only entered into the human body. The word “Asritam” in the verse of Gita “Manushim tanumasritam” means the entry of the Lord into the human body and not the modification of the Lord as a human body. Lord Krishna in Gita clarified this in the verse “Avyaktam Vyaktimapannam”.
Is it possible for God to come in Human form? - Yusef_aka_Joseph - 09-18-2006
Well first off I'd like to say in the atmosphere of peace, open-mindedness and understanding, this is a good topic which you brought up!! Now im not replying to offend anybody or yourself but in my opinion the thought of God comming in human form is just simply illogical. Let me explain:
First of all Allah/God/The Almighty exists in a form which looks nothing at all like creation. By creation I mean all that he has created, and humans, being one of Allah's many creations. Allah is unique in every way, appearance, attributes, etc, so by God comming down in a form that is lower then Himself, would be lowering himself and entering a form with some sort of flaw. And as we ALL know, no matter what religion, God is perfect in everyway, so why would Allah become unperfect? Not only why would he do that, but it poses the question can God become unperfect??? I dont think it's possible from a logical stand point of view, do you???!!
So in response to your thought, logically speaking, I am of the opinion that God WOULD NOT come in human form, because to do so, He'd have to follow the natural laws He created, and come from a womb.
Is it possible for God to come in Human form? - dattaswami - 09-19-2006
Quote:Well first off I'd like to say in the atmosphere of peace, open-mindedness and understanding, this is a good topic which you brought up!! Now im not replying to offend anybody or yourself but in my opinion the thought of God comming in human form is just simply illogical. Let me explain:
First of all Allah/God/The Almighty exists in a form which looks nothing at all like creation. By creation I mean all that he has created, and humans, being one of Allah's many creations. Allah is unique in every way, appearance, attributes, etc, so by God comming down in a form that is lower then Himself, would be lowering himself and entering a form with some sort of flaw. And as we ALL know, no matter what religion, God is perfect in everyway, so why would Allah become unperfect? Not only why would he do that, but it poses the question can God become unperfect??? I dont think it's possible from a logical stand point of view, do you???!!
So in response to your thought, logically speaking, I am of the opinion that God WOULD NOT come in human form, because to do so, He'd have to follow the natural laws He created, and come from a womb.
Yusef_aka_Joseph ,Thank you for yur reply;
God is unimaginable, uncomprehendable and beyond logic. The creation is the imagination of the Lord. 1%(qualitatively) of His imagination was converted into 'pure awareness' and does not contain God and 100% of this pureawarness has become the universe. Thus God does not exist in the creation. The creator is above creation and is unaffected by it.
The aim of the creation was the entertainment of Lord. God enters the creation through the finest item of the creation, i.e. human being. He enters the human body for giving His presence to the world. By doing so, He is not modified into that human body or soul. He is then known as 'Human Incarnation". He gives the facility of touch, talk and seeing to His dearest devotees who really wished to serve Him. Only His devotees identify Him rest all will mock Him seeing His human body.
The identification mark of Lord in Human form is the 'True Divine Knowledge', which removes our ignorance without any trace. He also does miracles whenever there is an urgency, and not for 'crowd pulling' or 'show'. He Himself is the founder of the rules of nature. By doing miracles He is violating His own rules, it is a violation of His own administration, thus He performs miracles whenever there is a great necessity. He should be identified by His divine knowledge.
God comes in every human generation in human form for the upliftment of Souls.
Is it possible for God to come in Human form? - wel_mel_2 - 09-19-2006
Bismillah:
Quote:Yusef_aka_Joseph ,Thank you for yur reply;
God is unimaginable, uncomprehendable and beyond logic. The creation is the imagination of the Lord. 1%(qualitatively) of His imagination was converted into 'pure awareness' and does not contain God and 100% of this pureawarness has become the universe. Thus God does not exist in the creation. The creator is above creation and is unaffected by it.
The aim of the creation was the entertainment of Lord. God enters the creation through the finest item of the creation, i.e. human being. He enters the human body for giving His presence to the world. By doing so, He is not modified into that human body or soul. He is then known as 'Human Incarnation". He gives the facility of touch, talk and seeing to His dearest devotees who really wished to serve Him. Only His devotees identify Him rest all will mock Him seeing His human body.
The identification mark of Lord in Human form is the 'True Divine Knowledge', which removes our ignorance without any trace. He also does miracles whenever there is an urgency, and not for 'crowd pulling' or 'show'. He Himself is the founder of the rules of nature. By doing miracles He is violating His own rules, it is a violation of His own administration, thus He performs miracles whenever there is a great necessity. He should be identified by His divine knowledge.
God comes in every human generation in human form for the upliftment of Souls.
again, i can see NO reason for Him to come down in human form 'for the upliftment of souls' while he can do the same thing from up there!!!
Salam
Wael.
Is it possible for God to come in Human form? - Yusef_aka_Joseph - 09-19-2006
"God is unimaginable, uncomprehendable and beyond logic. The creation is the imagination of the Lord. 1%(qualitatively) of His imagination was converted into 'pure awareness' and does not contain God and 100% of this pureawarness has become the universe. Thus God does not exist in the creation. The creator is above creation and is unaffected by it."
This I agree with, but you have this knowleadge and understanding of it, as with I, why is it you confuse it with Incarnation?
"Thus God does not exist in the creation. The creator is above creation and is unaffected by it" this is a very true statement, and there is no doubt in my mind about it. But with this statement you seem to have contradicted your theory of Incarnation, as follows:
"God enters the creation through the finest item of the creation, i.e. human being. He enters the human body for giving His presence to the world. By doing so, He is not modified into that human body or soul. He is then known as 'Human Incarnation". He gives the facility of touch, talk and seeing to His dearest devotees who really wished to serve Him. "
I think you are confusing Incarnation with inspiration. Physically, The Almighty does not enter the human body what-soever, but perhaps gives an improvement to our attributes, wether it be touch, speech or sight, through Divine Help. I dont know how to coin the term but I'll use Blessing.
You also stated "God comes in every human generation in human form for the upliftment of Souls. "
I agree with this statement, except for the "human form" part. Allah sent His prophets and messengers to every generation, every tribe and nation, in every time period to teach and educate those who were stray in religion or unaware of Him. They were sent to be the best of examples for mankind to follow and to eradicate ignorance and bring about Truth, so falsehood would disappear. They all had the same message, and this message was for the upliftment of souls. Wether it was Adam, Ibraheem, Moses with the Torah, Isa with the Injeel (gospel) or Muhammed (peace be upon all of them) with the Qu'ran.
This would support your theory
"The identification mark of Lord in Human form is the 'True Divine Knowledge', which removes our ignorance without any trace"
because all the prophets had this "true divine knowledge" with them through inspiration. Also I must state, this inspiration was giving to them by Allah/God but was brought to them by the Angel "Gabriel" aka the <"Holy Spirit" (as Christians say)>, but not physically from Allah/God, as you claim it to be. I do agree that God/Allah does work through us with this type of inspiration but indirectly.
Now if you could provide prove or evidence of your theory, I would be more then happy to take a look at it for the sake of truthfulness, so that I may stand corrected, but if not, then logic, it seems has terminated your argument/theory and rendered it void. Alas, if we dont have any proofs or evidences from either of US, then in truthfulness our words are mere conjecture, lol.
Again I hope i didnt come across as offending you and any reader of this topic, but I enjoy debating of these types of issues so readers, and ourselves can come to a conclusive answer of truth and falsehood may disappear, InshaAllah. May Allah guide all of us in the search for truth. Salaam to all.
Is it possible for God to come in Human form? - Kal - 09-19-2006
Salam,
Whether or not we see reason for Allah to come down in human form is irrelevant. Who are we to say question the idea or choices or possibilities open to Allah?
As to the original question - the obvious is answer is ofcourse if Allah chose to come down in some kind of form, he would/could if he chooses but history shows us he himself hasn't come down in a specific form.
Anyone correct me if im wrong!
Is it possible for God to come in Human form? - dattaswami - 09-19-2006
Quote:Salam,
Whether or not we see reason for Allah to come down in human form is irrelevant. Who are we to say question the idea or choices or possibilities open to Allah?
As to the original question - the obvious is answer is ofcourse if Allah chose to come down in some kind of form, he would/could if he chooses but history shows us he himself hasn't come down in a specific form.
Anyone correct me if im wrong!
Joseph and Kal, Thank you for all of your interest;
As per the Vedas, knowledge bliss and love are the characteristic properties or qualities of God (Parabrahma). Any property must be possessed by a base-material or entity called the substratum (dravya). Light and heat are the characteristic properties of the sun. The sun is their substratum and possesses the properties. The substratum may be regarded as the concentrated form of the properties. So, God is the substratum and hence the concentrated form of knowledge, bliss and love, as said by the Veda “Prajñana ghana?” “Brahma puccham prati??ha”. This God, who is the substratum of the qualities mentioned above, is beyond imagination. Imagination too is a form of knowledge. We have seen earlier that knowledge must be born from experience (perception by senses) and that the Vedas, Sastras and logic should support it. Then only can it be real knowledge. Mere experience cannot give real knowledge because the experience of a mad person cannot be regarded as true. Yet direct experience is a must for any knowledge. If somebody says that honey is sweet, such knowledge cannot be real unless you taste honey and experience it.
Consciousness is also a quality. A quality cannot exist independently. Consciousness can be found only a living being and that living being is the substratum of consciousness. Similarly, power is another quality. Power is also a quality. The sun is the condensed form of light and when the sun is absent, light too is absent. God is the condensed form of knowledge, bliss and love and God created this world through His creative power called Maya.
When you say that someone has knowledge, it automatically means that that someone also has consciousness. Knowledge assumes consciousness. However, every conscious being need not have knowledge. Knowledge normally means the knowledge of a certain concept (Sastra) Prajñanam means the true and infinite knowledge of God, which is also called as philosophy. Vedanta is philosophy, because it is the topmost knowledge of Vedas. Vedanta is fully known only by God. Therefore God is ‘Sarvajña’ (He who knows everything). Although He is all-knowing, God Himself created ignorance, which is called Maya and He got covered by this Maya with His own will. He enjoys by watching this world like a movie, which is nothing but His ideas. If Maya is removed, the world disappears and God (He who is beyond all qualities, such as knowledge and ignorance) alone remains. This God without ignorance is called Parabrahman. However when there is no ignorance (Maya), there is no creation and no individuals; therefore no one can know Parabrahman since the person trying to know God disappears.
Veda says “Brahma vit Brahma....” This means that God alone knows God. The Bhagavad Gita also says the same thing “Mam tu veda na kascana”, which means that no body knows God. Therefore you cannot directly experience God and in fact you cannot even experience His three properties directly from Him. When you yourself do not exist, how can you experience God and his qualities? When there is no experience, real knowledge cannot be obtained. It is not sufficient to simply know that God possesses the knowledge of Himself, which is called Prajñanam by Veda. Did you hear Prajñanam from God? You have not understood anything simply by hearing the word Prajñanam. If you have heard the word mathematics do you know all that is to be known in mathematics? So you must hear that special knowledge, Prajñanam, from God, get bliss, develop love for God through your service and then God will love you. Only then you can say that you have experienced God and that you have real knowledge of God, which is called Brahma Jñanam. Already we have seen that it is impossible to attain the special knowledge directly from God because you yourself cannot exist in that situation.
Yet we must somehow get the knowledge of God and the question is how to get it? G<b>od must enter the world secretly and should give you the special knowledge. If God is fully revealed, the world disappears. Therefore God enters a human body which is a product of His Maya. His entrance in the body is also a Maya. Now He is hidden in that human body in order to maintain the existence of you and the world. Now He gives you the special knowledge through that human body. That special knowledge will also be given in a greatly reduced dosage so that you can safely receive it. If the dosage is more you will vanish. Now you are getting the special knowledge directly from God and the human body is only a medium. God pervades that human body from top to bottom; internally and externally. The Veda says the same “Antar bahisca”.</b>
Now by this experience you have attained the complete Brahma Jñanam. There is no other way than this. If you want to see God by your two eyes, it is impossible because if God appears you will disappear along with this world. God can be seen only by the third eye which is the eye of knowledge, and that too with God’s grace. You cannot see God. You cannot touch God. You cannot talk with God. You cannot live with God. So what is the use of such visions? Visions are useless unless you attain the God’s grace. Grace is more important than visions. God gave His vision to Arjuna as well as to the blind king Dh?tara??ra. Yet Dh?tara??ra was not blessed like Arjuna. Radha and Hanuman were never given any such visions. But both attained the highest fruit.
When Arjuna saw that vision he shivered with fear and prayed God to come back to the form of human body. Arjuna was the bravest man in the world. He was Nara, who had worshipped Lord Naraya?a (God) continuously for the past thousand births. He also saw God through the third eye alone and with the grace of God. If such an Arjuna shivered with fright looking at God, what will be case of ordinary human beings? They will simply vaporize before the power of God. If you receive knowledge, bliss and love of God and if you love God through your service, you are really blessed. You can experience these three qualities only through human incarnation.
Some people claim themselves to be human incarnations by saying that they have infinite bliss and love. Yet they do not possess the knowledge supported by the Veda, Sastras and logic. Even if they speak the knowledge, they cannot quote the scriptures and cannot give correct logic. Such people are fraud incarnations because knowledge cannot be separated from bliss and love. The light of the sun cannot be separated from its heat. Both light and heat always co-exist. If you neglect K???a, how can you get the special knowledge in the form of Bhagavad Gita? If you neglect the divine form Lord Brahma, (Brahmadeva) how can you get the knowledge of the Vedas? Sages have heard Vedas from the four faces of Lord Brahma. Sages sitting near Lord Brahma are attaining the special knowledge, called Vedanta, and are immersed in infinite bliss and love.
Lord Buddha, who is one of the ten incarnations of Lord Naraya?a, said that the Vedas are Pauru?eyas, which means that Vedas are spoken by a form i.e., Lord Brahma and hence cannot be the Word of God. But some have condemned Buddha and have insisted that Vedas came directly from God. Yes, it is true that the Vedas were told by God. But He did it through the medium of a form; not directly. God pervades the entire divine body of Lord Brahma and through that body, the Vedas were told to the sages.
<b>In the Bhagavad Gita, Lord K???a says that foolish people insult the medium of the human body because of their jealousy and egoism (Avajananti…). The Veda says “Vedahametam…” which means that ‘I have recognized the human incarnation, who removes the darkness of ignorance and radiates the light of the special knowledge like a sun’. Veda further says “Tamevam Vidvan…’, which means ‘he who recognizes such a human incarnation becomes liberated in this world itself (jivanmukta)’. Veda further says ‘Nanya? pantha?’ which means ‘there is no other way to experience God other than through the human incarnation’. </b>
Is it possible for God to come in Human form? - NaSra - 09-19-2006
Bismilah
Asalamalaikum
dattaswami SubhanaAllah what a question. Islam rejects characterizing God in any human form.
The Creator must be of a different nature from the things created because if he is of the same nature as they are, he will be temporal and will therefore need a maker. It follows that nothing is like Him. If the maker is not temporal, then he must be eternal. But if he is eternal, he cannot be caused, and if nothing outside him causes him to continue to exist, which means that he must be self-sufficient. And if the does not depend on anything for the continuance of his own existence, then this existence can have no end. The Creator is therefore eternal and everlasting: "He is the First and the Last."
He is Self-Sufficient or Self-Subsistent or, to use a Quranic term, Al-Qayyum. The Creator does not create only in the sense of bringing things into being, He also preserves them and takes them out of existence and is the ultimate cause of whatever happens to them.
<b>"God is the Creator of everything. He is the guardian over everything. Unto Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth." (39:62, 63) </b>
"No creature is there crawling on the earth, but its provision rests on God. He knows its lodging place and it repository." (11:6)
<b>"He is God; there is no god but He, He is the Knower of the unseen and the visible; He is the All-Merciful, the All-Compassionate. He is God, there is no God but He. He is the King, the All-Holy, the All-Peace, the Guardian of Faith, the All-Preserver, the All-Mighty, the All-Compeller, the All-Sublime. Glory be to God, above that they associate! He is God the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. To Him belong the Names Most Beautiful. All that is in the heavens and the earth magnifies Him; He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise." (59:22-24)
</b>
<b>"There is no god but He, the Living, the Everlasting. Slumber seizes Him not, neither sleep; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Who is there that shall intercede with Him save by His leave? He knows what lies before them and what is after them, and they comprehend not anything of His knowledge save such as He wills. His throne comprises the heavens and earth; the preserving of them oppresses Him not; He is the All-High, the All-Glorious." (2:255) </b>
Allah is above everything!! He is one and none is like him, He has no beginning nor any ending, He is Everlasting.
Allahu Akbar!!
I hope this makes sense.
dattaswami.....I don't mind your questions but can u pls go easy on us? You have been here only for 2 days or so I think, and you already started so many threads.
You can challenge us and our religion you are very welcome, InshaAllah we'll defeat all of your falsehood with our truth from the book of Allah.
But Please go slow, that way your questions will be addressed better and you'll have responses.
Btw....Do u just cut and paste stuff from sites, or do you write those esssays using your own god given intellect?
If you are cutting and pasting, Please dont because we'll never know your true colours that way, nor can we have an honest discussion. Which ruins the prcoess of u learning from us and us learning from u.
<i>A little bit goes a long way</i>
Peace
Is it possible for God to come in Human form? - dattaswami - 09-20-2006
Quote:Bismilah
Asalamalaikum
dattaswami SubhanaAllah what a question. Islam rejects characterizing God in any human form.
The Creator must be of a different nature from the things created because if he is of the same nature as they are, he will be temporal and will therefore need a maker. It follows that nothing is like Him. If the maker is not temporal, then he must be eternal. But if he is eternal, he cannot be caused, and if nothing outside him causes him to continue to exist, which means that he must be self-sufficient. And if the does not depend on anything for the continuance of his own existence, then this existence can have no end. The Creator is therefore eternal and everlasting: "He is the First and the Last."
He is Self-Sufficient or Self-Subsistent or, to use a Quranic term, Al-Qayyum. The Creator does not create only in the sense of bringing things into being, He also preserves them and takes them out of existence and is the ultimate cause of whatever happens to them.
<b>"God is the Creator of everything. He is the guardian over everything. Unto Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth." (39:62, 63) </b>
"No creature is there crawling on the earth, but its provision rests on God. He knows its lodging place and it repository." (11:6)
<b>"He is God; there is no god but He, He is the Knower of the unseen and the visible; He is the All-Merciful, the All-Compassionate. He is God, there is no God but He. He is the King, the All-Holy, the All-Peace, the Guardian of Faith, the All-Preserver, the All-Mighty, the All-Compeller, the All-Sublime. Glory be to God, above that they associate! He is God the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. To Him belong the Names Most Beautiful. All that is in the heavens and the earth magnifies Him; He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise." (59:22-24)
</b>
<b>"There is no god but He, the Living, the Everlasting. Slumber seizes Him not, neither sleep; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Who is there that shall intercede with Him save by His leave? He knows what lies before them and what is after them, and they comprehend not anything of His knowledge save such as He wills. His throne comprises the heavens and earth; the preserving of them oppresses Him not; He is the All-High, the All-Glorious." (2:255) </b>
Allah is above everything!! He is one and none is like him, He has no beginning nor any ending, He is Everlasting.
Allahu Akbar!!
I hope this makes sense.
dattaswami.....I don't mind your questions but can u pls go easy on us? You have been here only for 2 days or so I think, and you already started so many threads.
You can challenge us and our religion you are very welcome, InshaAllah we'll defeat all of your falsehood with our truth from the book of Allah.
But Please go slow, that way your questions will be addressed better and you'll have responses.
Btw....Do u just cut and paste stuff from sites, or do you write those esssays using your own god given intellect?
If you are cutting and pasting, Please dont because we'll never know your true colours that way, nor can we have an honest discussion. Which ruins the prcoess of u learning from us and us learning from u.
<i>A little bit goes a long way</i>
Peace
Thank you,
All the replies are God is from God given intellect only