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John 1 - Muslimah - 08-12-2009
Bismillah
as salam alykom
Let me try to recap here, according to FHC, the Father, son and holy spirit are one who consist of three. Together they were responsible for the creation.
The Father sent him, and he was the one who was crusified, humiliated on the cross, spat at,..etc and then died. Then he defeated death and penetrated into sky to sit next his father.
Is this correct???? without any dogmatic philosophy pls.
John 1 - Steve Consilvio - 08-12-2009
Quote:Bismillah
as salam alykom
Let me try to recap here, according to FHC, the Father, son and holy spirit are one who consist of three. Together they were responsible for the creation.
The Father sent him, and he was the one who was crusified, humiliated on the cross, spat at,..etc and then died. Then he defeated death and penetrated into sky to sit next his father.
Is this correct???? without any dogmatic philosophy pls.
According to scripture, those are the events of what happened, not according to FHC.
The issue of 'one consist of three' is an interpretation. That is what the Qu'ran speaks to. Not that the three don't exist, only that describing it as a 'trinity' is 'not good.' A rather gentle rebuke in the scale of human error.
John 1 - Muslimah - 08-13-2009
Bismillah
Quote:May the peace of our Lord, Jesus Christ, be with you!
I agree. Without a human nature, the Son of God could not have died.
In fact, I said the total opposite. God is not Jesus. God is Father, Son & Holy Spirit. Each Person completely possesses the SAME divine nature, which is why it is fitting to say: the Father is God, the Son (Jesus Christ) is God, & the Holy Spirit is God. Not 3 different gods, but 3 Persons in the One True God.
God is omnipresent. The Son of God does not need to be restricted in space or time. The Son is very much united with the Father & the Holy Spirit before, during & after the Incarnation.
Why would God send His only Son into the world & subject Him to the lowliness of humanity for the sake that we might be cured of our sickness, become reconciled to God, & have a share in His Heavenly Kingdom?
<b>Because God is Love. </b>
Alright, Steve do you agree to this explanation, without saying who posted it I mean according to scripture?
John 1 - Steve Consilvio - 08-13-2009
I think the term 'divine nature' is a slippery slope, upon which men can add anything they wish. This falls into the 'riddles' that Kahil Gibran mentioned.
'Divine' nature is a construct to compare with 'human' nature and 'natural' nature. Man loves comparative analysis and reason, but the topic we are discussing is faith. Do we have faith in God? Do we believe in and follow? We do not need to understand or agree rationally, but to accept. So the final sentence 'God is Love' I accept wholeheartedly. I understand that.
The more I read the Qu'ran, it is clear to me that it is a warning against religious groupthink (aka dogma) because groupthink is always faulty. Muslim groupthink is just as faulty as Christian or Jewish groupthink. Just because a majority accept a definition and defend their self-generated propaganda, that does not make it God's truth. It makes it their truth.
So when you ask 'do I agree with the above statement' I do agree with parts of it, besides the conclusion. I do believe that God made the sacrifice that He asked Abraham to make, namely the sacrifice of his son. So the claim that Jesus did not die, was swapped for Judas, etc., I find problematical. It robs God of the example He was trying to set for us, as well as contradicts all of the scripture which even the Qu'ran affirms.
That is what I meant by the Muslim groupthink is just as fault-ridden as any other groupthink, since clearly the Qu'ran is read to make people believe that Islam is superior to Christianity and Judaism, and that is not what is being said at all. The Qu'ran is repeating the same truths, and making the same points, as all other scripture. Just as other scripture is misread, so too is the Qu'ran.
John 1 - Muslimah - 08-19-2009
Bismillah
Actually Steve the Quran says the opposite to your understanding.
However, let me just focus on one point and see if I got it correctly thru u and FHC
father, son and holy spirit are one whole comprising one god??
Just a simple statement, and pls yes or no.
John 1 - Steve Consilvio - 08-19-2009
Quote:Bismillah
Actually Steve the Quran says the opposite to your understanding.
I made a number of statements. To what are you referring?
I conceded long ago that monotheism is contradictory with the trinity. They are opposite concepts intellectually. 1=3. However, that does not mean that the three do not exist.
It seems to me that you are trying to force a point that is the opposite of what the Quran states. This is, of course, the great irony of scripture. People want it to fit their opinion, rather than to understand God's opinion. Scripture is not meant to separate us into petty squabbles, but to unite us.
If Muslims spend their days convinced of their superiority, then they miss the point. Just as Christians and Jews who spend their days convinced of their superiority miss the point.
John 1 - Steve Consilvio - 08-20-2009
I wanted to bring something else to this discussion. I have long thought that the terms we use are false: Jew, Christian, Catholic,Protestant, Muslim, etc. There are lots of sects within each.
Christ was a Jew. It is the God of Abraham and Moses that we believe in. Jesus was the Son of God, but even as a prophet, it is always the same God. Therefore, we (you the Muslim and me the Christian) should be calling ourselves Jews. Or perhaps Hebrews. Of course, that gets messy with the idea of the second covenant, but the second covenant wasn't a new covenant, it was an expanded covenant. More were given Grace. The family became bigger.
I am willing to give up the language of trinity, and even the title Christian, are you willing to give up the term Muslim? Isn't the point of God's grace about seeing ourselves in a new light? The name we choose would certainly be an indication of that.
Isn't 'believer' enough?
John 1 - Muslimah - 08-20-2009
Bismillah
as salam alykom Steve,
No I m not at all trying to force a point, just trying to sum up the conclusion for another thread.
Insh a Allah will start another thread, this point u brought here is really worth a separate discussion.
Insh a Allah pls start another thread for it Steve.
Thank you
Quote:I wanted to bring something else to this discussion. I have long thought that the terms we use are false: Jew, Christian, Catholic,Protestant, Muslim, etc. There are lots of sects within each.
Christ was a Jew. It is the God of Abraham and Moses that we believe in. Jesus was the Son of God, but even as a prophet, it is always the same God. Therefore, we (you the Muslim and me the Christian) should be calling ourselves Jews. Or perhaps Hebrews. Of course, that gets messy with the idea of the second covenant, but the second covenant wasn't a new covenant, it was an expanded covenant. More were given Grace. The family became bigger.
I am willing to give up the language of trinity, and even the title Christian, are you willing to give up the term Muslim? Isn't the point of God's grace about seeing ourselves in a new light? The name we choose would certainly be an indication of that.
Isn't 'believer' enough?
John 1 - Steve Consilvio - 08-20-2009
A new thread isn't necessary. Everything we discuss is an understanding of how our beliefs fit together.
"Believer' is just a common denominator on which we can all build, no?
John 1 - Muslimah - 08-22-2009
Bismillah
Here is the new thread:
http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=...st=0#entry36306