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Let the debate begin-Round One - John 15:18 - 10-01-2006
It is official. You are now reaching harder to deny what I am saying than I am to justify it.
I understand that Christ does not mean God, but when the Jews ask Jesus "are you the Christ", the answer that he gives equates himself with God. They know that, and they are proportionally upset. And so I put the question back to you: If Jesus did not mean that he is God, if he just meant "I am a prophet", then why did he not clarify things when the Jews are ready to stone him? Why then did Jesus not say "Sorry, I meant that I and the father are one purpose". You keep wanting him to speak plainly, then when he does, you say his words have a different meaning. Again, you're working a whole lot harder here trying to say "Jesus didn't really mean that he and the father are one" than I am in just revealing it.
As regards the "spiritual blinkers" you say I wear (I assume you mean spiritual blinders, as opposed to spiritual indicators), when Jesus himself is asked to speak plainly, then does, I am not going to put additional meaning onto that like you do. That is what you have accused the Christians of doing all along, and yet at the one point where it is plain, you fall into the same trap. There must be additional meanings there, Jesus cannot mean what he plainly says, because it does not agree with your preconception that he is a prophet, and not God. Therefore, he meant not "I and the father are one", but "I and the father are one in purpose, not in essence". I will admit, what he is saying is difficult to understand. In fact, it is the most difficult thing anyone has ever said, ever. That is what makes it so compelling. You can't respect him as a prophet if he comes right out and says "I and God are one". Nobody else has ever made that claim without being a fool, the devil, or God himself. And it is precisely that that makes us want to see Him as less than that. We want to be able to understand God as something far-off, untouchable, and distant. But Jesus, who was very God, and told us as much in John, is deeply personal, and comes to us as human beings on Earth. I'll admit, it's tough for us to wrap our heads around, but there it is. He told you, and you have the choice to accept what he said, or to try valliantly to explain it away.
If you care, look at the verses where Jesus talks about the sheep again:
"My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. What my father has given me is greater than all else, and no one can snatch it out of the Father's hand. The Father and I are one"
Who gives the sheep eternal life? Jesus himself. How on earth can he do that if he is not God? How can mortal man, no matter how favored by God, give eternal life to anyone? They can bring the message of eternal life, they can share the goodness of God, but they cannot give eternal life. That is a property unique to God alone.
And as you have seen from this translation (NRSV), the verses you hang so much on, relies on a selective translation...exactly what you have accused Christians of on this thread. NRSV: What my father has given me is greater than all else"
NIV: "My father, who is greater than all else".
Even if it was the NIV translation that we were accepting as correct, the argument still stands: The Father is greater than all else, but Jesus is one with the Father. One God, from ages to ages.
As regards Psalm 82: Keep reading: 6 "I say 'you are gods, children of the most high, all of you; 7: nevertheless, you shall die like mortals, and fall like any prince"
I happen to know that as Muslims, you believe that Jesus ascended up to heaven...bodily. Without dying. That means he is separate from all those other prophets, who will die like mere men.
<b>Jesus, continues: "If he (i.e. God Almighty) called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (meaning that the prophets of God were called 'gods') and the scripture cannot be broken..." (John 10:35), in other words he is saying: "you can't contradict me!" Jesus knows his Scripture; he speaks with authority; and he reasons with his enemies that: "If good men, holy men, prophets of God are being addressed as 'gods' in our Books of Authority, with which you find no fault, then why do you take exception to me? When the only claim I make for myself is far inferior in our language, viz. 'A son of God' as against others being called 'gods' by God Himself. Even if I (Jesus) described myself as 'god' in our language, according to Hebrew usage, you could find no fault with me." This is the plain reading of Christian Scripture and many other Christians sects interpreted and understood the same context as Muslims. </b>
Interesting. You know, that interpretation takes into account that good men, holy men of God were called gods in the books of authority. Let's look at psalm 82, though. These prophets, these good holy men "know nothing, understand nothing. They walk around in darkness, and all the foundations of the earth are shaken. I said, 'you are gods, you are sons of the Most High', but you will die like mere men, you will fall like every other ruler. Rise up, O God, Judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance".
These are not good prophets. These are judges, who have lost their way, and do not look to God for wisdom. They know nothing, and walk in darkness. And when these men are in charge of justice, the world shakes. Is Jesus lumping himself in with this crowd? I highly doubt it. He knows, the scriptures, and so do the Jews, who understand what he means, and know about the last verse: "Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance".
Check John 5:27: "And he has given Him authority to judge, because He is the Son of Man". Jesus is the fulfillment of that last verse! He is not backing away from what he said about he and the Father being one, he is reinforcing it! He continues, "Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does".
Who else but God is able to do what God does? Call Jesus a liar, if you will. But if he is telling the truth, then his is doing what God does (again, said plainly for those who ask him to speak plainly), means that he can be no less than God himself. You can try to explain this away all you like, but it seems pretty clear. Jesus, when asked to speak plainly, speaks. He tells them that He and the Father are one, that He does what His Father does, that He is different from the rulers in the Old Testament who would die and whose empires would fall like mere mortals, and that he is the one who has come to judge the world. Having said all this, it is right for Jesus to state: "all may honor the Son just as they honor the father. He who does not honor the Son, does not honor the Father who sent him".
Let the debate begin-Round One - wel_mel_2 - 10-02-2006
Bismillah:
Quote:It is official. You are now reaching harder to deny what I am saying than I am to justify it.
Ok, whatever, <b>but am not denying what the Bible says about Jesus</b>… and that’s why <b>many other Christians came to the same conclusion that Jesus is not God and they are still Christians by they way…. Not Muslims</b>.
Quote:I understand that Christ does not mean God, but when the Jews ask Jesus "are you the Christ", the answer that he gives equates himself with God. They know that, and they are proportionally upset. And so I put the question back to you: If Jesus did not mean that he is God, if he just meant "I am a prophet", then why did he not clarify things when the Jews are ready to stone him? Why then did Jesus not say "Sorry, I meant that I and the father are one purpose". You keep wanting him to speak plainly, then when he does, you say his words have a different meaning. Again, you're working a whole lot harder here trying to say "Jesus didn't really mean that he and the father are one" than I am in just revealing it.
I already explained this part… he did inform the Jews that he already told them before <b>but they didn't believe </b> (what did he tellthem before)??? he show them miracles, wonders and signs which no ordinary man could perform, he show them many times that <b>he was the Christ</b>… didn't he tell them before "... seeing they see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."
(Matthew 13:13) <b>then how can you claim that the Jews did understand what Jesus really meant while Jesus himself said that they do not understand??? </b> he also told them that these miracles were not his own,<b> but God did by him </b> <b>the work of his father</b>, he said to them in the same verse that the father is greater than himself… <b>how can anyone say that Jesus is God if he is not the greatest. </b>
Quote:Jesus cannot mean what he plainly says, because it does not agree with your preconception that he is a prophet, and not God.
You see, am not bringing verses from my Qur’an to claim that he was a prophet; <b>even his followers in your Bible knew that he was a Prophet</b>… <b>and God Almighty can never be a Prophet.
</b>
"And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet."
Matthew 14:5 (compare with Matthew 21:26)
"And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee."
Matthew 21:11
"But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet."
Matthew 21:46
"And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:" Luke 24:19
"The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet." John 4:19
"Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world." John 6:14
"Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet." John 7:40
Indeed, how did Jesus himself describe himself? Let us read:
"Nevertheless I (Jesus) must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem." Luke 13:33
And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. Matthew 13:57
The followers of Christ considered God to be <b>their "Father," not Jesus.</b>
Quote:Therefore, he meant not "I and the father are one", but "I and the father are one in purpose, not in essence". I will admit, what he is saying is difficult to understand. In fact, it is the most difficult thing anyone has ever said, ever.
Ok, but do you remember what I’ve requested from you and from all other Christians??? I need to see o<b>ne single unequivocal statement from the lips of Jesus Christ where he say I am God or where he say worship me</b>… this will definitely remove any doubts was caused by ambiguous statements, bt he did not, did he? please show me.... what i've seen in the BIBle is that <b>Jesus worshipped God. So?? He is not God. </b>
Quote:Who gives the sheep eternal life? Jesus himself. How on earth can he do that if he is not God?
He shows them <b>the way </b> to inherit eternal life... you see this is the problem with you guys when always take things literally… look what <b>he said </b> about eternal life to have better understanding:
<b>Luke 10</b>
25. On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26. "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27. He answered: "<b> 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' " </b>
28. "<b>You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." </b>
this is how he is giving eternal life, but showing and teaching the way to attain salvation.
So as you can see, Jesus in the NT is clearly <b>not</b> ‘giving eternal life by himself’ but showing the way to inherit it.
Quote:I happen to know that as Muslims, you believe that Jesus ascended up to heaven...bodily. Without dying. That means he is separate from all those other prophets, who will die like mere men.
<b>Yes but he is going to die after his second coming as mere man too.</b>
Quote:Who else but God is able to do what God does? Call Jesus a liar, if you will. But if he is telling the truth, then his is doing what God does (again, said plainly for those who ask him to speak plainly), means that he can be no less than God himself. You can try to explain this away all you like, but it seems pretty clear. Jesus, when asked to speak plainly, speaks. He tells them that He and the Father are one, that He does what His Father does, that He is different from the rulers in the Old Testament who would die and whose empires would fall like mere mortals, and that he is the one who has come to judge the world. Having said all this, it is right for Jesus to state: "all may honor the Son just as they honor the father. He who does not honor the Son, does not honor the Father who sent him".
He also said <b>i can do nothing of my own</b>. He do what God does because this is <b>God's will and not Jesus'</b>… <b>he does no miracles, he does NOTHING</b>, but God almighty allowed him to do these things to support his position as a Prophet and messenger of God.
Salam
Wael.
Let the debate begin-Round One - John 15:18 - 10-05-2006
27. He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "
28. "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
this is how he is giving eternal life, but showing and teaching the way to attain salvation.
So as you can see, Jesus in the NT is clearly not ‘giving eternal life by himself’ but showing the way to inherit it.
Wow, that is totally not what's going on in that passage. Jesus is definitely NOT teaching that good works are a means to salvation. He's showing, in this passage, how impossible it is to attain salvation by works. These laws have to be followed perfectly in order to gain salvation, which they are not. By anyone.
You see, he does nothing of his own. He does the will of the Father, which is the will of the Son, because they are one. Because they are one God.
As regards your quote from Scripture on how to gain eternal life...that's the problem. In order to get eternal life, you have to follow that perfectly. You have to follow all the laws that God has ever given perfectly to the letter. The trouble is that nobody outside of God himself would ever be able to do that. Only God, with his perfection, would ever be able to keep God's law. Everyone else is lacking. If your salvation is dependent on you keeping that law, then you're in trouble. Jesus in that passage was showing the futility of trying to do enough good works to impress God. He had given that man a list of demands so big that he couldn't possibly meet them.
And is that what salvation rests on? Stuff we can't do? I certainly hope not.
And God the Father is greater than God the Son due to the state of humiliation that God the Son placed himself in during his time on Earth. That's why he gives the Father so much credit all the time. Jesus, as God on earth, could have changed the fibre of existence, could have ensured that he'd be freed from the cross, but did not. Because he was in a state of humiliation, as the willing atonement. The Father, in Heaven, was not in a state of humiliation, therefore, before the resurrection, Jesus had to perform miracles through license of his father, but after the resurrection, once the atonement was completed, the miracles were of his own.
And to flip things around somewhat, I'd like to talk about the Qu'ran, if I may. Because in there, Jesus makes some clay birds, and gives them life, and they fly away. That, in my book, is called creation. And who does that? That is more than healing, or speaking truth, or raising the dead. That is giving life to the lifeless, forming something out of dust, and breathing life into it. I know it says "By God's leave" he did that, but my goodness...can anyone else in creation create? Can anyone in the system of the world use it like that? I would doubt it, but if you like, you can say that he was so favoured by God that HE COULD CREATE LIFE FROM NOTHING.
If that doesn't show divine power, then what does? He's making life from nothing.
Let the debate begin-Round One - wel_mel_2 - 10-05-2006
Bismillah:
Quote:Wow, that is totally not what's going on in that passage. Jesus is definitely NOT teaching that good works are a means to salvation. He's showing, in this passage, how impossible it is to attain salvation by works. These laws have to be followed perfectly in order to gain salvation, which they are not. By anyone.
All these ideas that are stuck in your mind are borrowed from<b> pagan religions</b> and have nothing to do with your Bible, you are interpreting the verses to suite your desire and going around one circle to prove your point but until now you have not answer my simple question. <b>Is there any unequivocal statement from Jesus himself where he said I am God therefore worship me? The answer is NO, but you can’t admit it. </b>
Quote:You see, he does nothing of his own. He does the will of the Father, which is the will of the Son, because they are one. Because they are one God.
In other words, he does the will of the Father, which is the will of the Son, <b>which is also the will of all previous Prophets, therefore they are also God.</b> What you just said again does not prove that he is God.
Quote:As regards your quote from Scripture on how to gain eternal life...that's the problem. In order to get eternal life, you have to follow that perfectly. You have to follow all the laws that God has ever given perfectly to the letter. The trouble is that nobody outside of God himself would ever be able to do that. Only God, with his perfection, would ever be able to keep God's law. Everyone else is lacking. If your salvation is dependent on you keeping that law, then you're in trouble. Jesus in that passage was showing the futility of trying to do enough good works to impress God. He had given that man a list of demands so big that he couldn't possibly meet them.
And is that what salvation rests on? Stuff we can't do? I certainly hope not.
Mathew 5:17
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: <b>I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. </b> 18 For verily I say unto you, <b>Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.</b> 19 <b>Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.</b> 20 For <b>I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven</b>.
Quote:And God the Father is greater than God the Son due to the state of humiliation that God the Son placed himself in during his time on Earth. That's why he gives the Father so much credit all the time. Jesus, as God on earth, could have changed the fibre of existence, could have ensured that he'd be freed from the cross, but did not. Because he was in a state of humiliation, as the willing atonement. The Father, in Heaven, was not in a state of humiliation, therefore, before the resurrection, Jesus had to perform miracles through license of his father, but after the resurrection, once the atonement was completed, the miracles were of his own.
one God on earth (Jesus) and one God in heaven (The Father), So they are not merged into one body as many explained or ....???
Quote:And to flip things around somewhat, I'd like to talk about the Qu'ran, if I may. Because in there, Jesus makes some clay birds, and gives them life, and they fly away. That, in my book, is called creation. And who does that? That is more than healing, or speaking truth, or raising the dead. That is giving life to the lifeless, forming something out of dust, and breathing life into it. I know it says "By God's leave" he did that, but my goodness...can anyone else in creation create? Can anyone in the system of the world use it like that? I would doubt it, but if you like, you can say that he was so favoured by God that HE COULD CREATE LIFE FROM NOTHING.
If that doesn't show divine power, then what does? He's making life from nothing.
You see <b>the Qur’an is so clear and pure</b>, the words <i>‘by God’s leave’ </i> ends any dispute. Most Christians argue that Jesus raised the dead and no one could do that except God himself. But in this case they must learn that <b>Ezekiel</b> who have raised many more dead bodies than Jesus ever did. But If you are looking for Godly powers and miracles as proof, <b>then you have to look at Joshua who is said to have stopped the sun and moon for one whole day</b>, Can anyone but God Almighty do this? Now I use your own words, <b>if that doesn't show divine power, then what does?</b> Now am still ready to hear your ‘own’ interpretation.
Salam
Wael
Let the debate begin-Round One - Rock - 10-06-2006
Bismillah
From what I read in this thread,it is not clear for me that"Jesus said that he was God."His using the words "I AM" which is exactly what God called himself in the Old Testament",does`nt mean that.
But it does`nt matter if the Bible mentioned that Jesus said that or did`nt mention.This will not explain the trinity and I think that understanding the trinity should preceding being christian or not.
It is not logic to say" the premise of the trinity is the existence of God,(or Allah) which cannot be "proved" using reason or science,the existence of God must be believed."
Evry thing in this universe prove the existence of a creator,the accuracy of the universe system prove the unity of the creator,beside it is not fair that we will be punished for unbelieving in some thing we can`t understand.where is the God justice?
I follow the Quran because I am muslim,and I am muslim because I strongly believe in the God existence and his unity,and this beliefe based on a complet understanding to this fact.
In comparison with the trinity,In islam we have the God,the holy spirit and the messengers.If we want to gain from this debate,we should discuss and understand the two concepts.
In islam,the God is the creator of evry thing in the universe and this means the unity of this God.
In trinity,what is the meaning of the God?Is this meaning admitted the existence of more than one God?.And if so,who created whom?
Let the debate begin-Round One - John 15:18 - 10-15-2006
The question is:
With God, what has he told us that his name is? If Jesus was going to say that he was God to a group of Jews, well versed in the Torah, what would he have called himself?
Would he have said "I am God, so worship me?"
Or would he have used the name that God Himself promised he would use? Would he use the name that God explicitly said would be his name for generations in dealing with his people?
He used that name, and you deny that he did. But, that's the way it goes, I suppose. Thank goodness we have the rest of the New Testament, which clarifies the issue for those of us who are gentiles, and who are not first century Jews, but even then:
Jesus uses the name God gave himself. period. And for future reference, unlike yourself, I have actually read the New Testament in Greek, and it seems pretty conclusive there, as well as in the English. Now, you may not think that "I AM" is God's name (even though he said it was in the Old Testament). That's fine, and you are entitled to it. But, it doesn't lessen the fact that Jesus made sure to call himself by that very name, which really angered the Jews who saw it as blasphemy.
This debate is an awful lot like if God showed up and called himself Allah to you, and you told me about it, and I said, "okay, but when did he call himself God?"
Different language, different terminology, etc.
Let the debate begin-Round One - Rock - 10-18-2006
Quote:The question is:
With God, what has he told us that his name is? If Jesus was going to say that he was God to a group of Jews, well versed in the Torah, what would he have called himself?
Would he have said "I am God, so worship me?"
Or would he have used the name that God Himself promised he would use? Would he use the name that God explicitly said would be his name for generations in dealing with his people?
He used that name, and you deny that he did. But, that's the way it goes, I suppose. Thank goodness we have the rest of the New Testament, which clarifies the issue for those of us who are gentiles, and who are not first century Jews, but even then:
Jesus uses the name God gave himself. period. And for future reference, unlike yourself, I have actually read the New Testament in Greek, and it seems pretty conclusive there, as well as in the English. Now, you may not think that "I AM" is God's name (even though he said it was in the Old Testament). That's fine, and you are entitled to it. But, it doesn't lessen the fact that Jesus made sure to call himself by that very name, which really angered the Jews who saw it as blasphemy.
This debate is an awful lot like if God showed up and called himself Allah to you, and you told me about it, and I said, "okay, but when did he call himself God?"
Different language, different terminology, etc.
Bismillah
I agree,this discussion is endless discussion.
And actually it does`nt matter if Jesus said in the Bible that "He is a God"or the God called himself "Allah"in the Quran,this is not our reasons to accept our faiths.
We should logically accepted our faith before following and defending this faith.
So it may be useful if we discuss"Why do Christains believe in the trinity,that God is three in one,if they can`t logically understand?,or if it is undersandable we need to undersand how?
I strongly believe that we should understand the other faiths,I need to know answer to my question"In trinity,what is the meaning of the God?Is this meaning admitted the existence of more than one God?.And if so,who created whom?