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A Comparison - Muslimah - 02-02-2007
Bismillah
Quote:Hehe! TC asked that question, not me!
La HAWLA WALA QOWATA ILA BILLAH :) NO POWER OR MIGHTY EXCEPT BY ALLAH
I guess it indicates i need a break :)
A Comparison - wel_mel_2 - 02-03-2007
Bismillah:
Assalamo Alikum.
Quote:Hehe! You're off the hook... so is every other Muslim! I realized I was asking for too much. Oh well!
You are asking us to understand something which is not understandable… That’s all.
Quote:JESUS' DIVINITY WAS UNTOUCHED!!! GOD CANNOT BE SEPARATED - GOD IS ONE!!!
When the Son of God walked the earth, He didn't cease being God. He took on a human nature - distinct from His divine nature.
Ok I will not pose any more comments. Let the viewers of this thread decides whether this make sense or not.
Quote:Whoa! It's over 500 pages! Initially, I thought about mailing/posting you a copy. I have some audio tapes. I might be able to transfer them onto my PC & send them to you. Let me see what I can do for you, Mate!
Thanks for your kindness, but this is going to cost you a lot of money :D I just don’t wanna bother you. You may start with emailing me the tapes first, then let’s see…
Quote:I don't see the connection in these verses, but as for Jeremiah 1:5 - that's one of my favourites in the Old Testament! Do you know why? Because it forbids abortion God in all His Omniscience & Omnipotence creates us with a purpose in life. He handpicks (so to speak) each & every soul that's brought forth into the world. Moves me to tears
We have discussed this topic before, no need to repeat ourselves again and again…
Quote:Do you honestly think that the beggar was indicating that he's God when asked if he's the beggar?
NO neither do I really think that Jesus was claiming Divinity when he said before Abraham was I am. it's ambiguous
Quote:Haha! I don't think so, Wael! I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt as I'm assuming you haven't actually read the verses in their entire passages
There is no need to show me how smart you are, I already declared that you are smart :D ... the verses of the Bible already interpreted in many differents ways, and all of them may make sense, but no one until this day can decided which interpretation is the truth.
Quote:I've caught you! Now I know for sure that you're not consulting the Bible because I just noticed that I accidentally quoted the wrong Evangelist & you didn't pick it up - LOL! It's St Luke's Gospel not St John's.
Wael, please provide with real responses! If I want answers from an Islamic Apologist, I'd visit their websites myself. You said you were trying to understand, but it's obvious you don't really care.
If you read the passages, you'll realize the difference between worshipping God & showing reverence through an act of humility.
<b>ATTENTION PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!</b>
<b>Judge not, and ye shall not be judged</b>:.... REMEMBER?
Of course I am aware of this kind of argument (that people worshiped Jesus according to the Bible as Christians claims) and that’s why I’ve responded to this point and didn’t notice the reference that you have quoted. Don’t be quick in your judgment and don’t be so picky… :D
For your information, St John and Mathew also have recorded similar incidents where people worshipped Jesus, you may look at John 9:38, Matthew 28:17. but please note that the word translated as "worshipped" in both verses is the GREEK word <b>"prosekunesan"</b> which is derived from the root word <b>proskuneo</b> {pros-ku-neh'-o}. The literal meaning of this word is: <b>"to kiss, like a dog licking his masters hand." </b> This word also has the general meaning of <b>"bow, crouch, crawl, kneel or prostrate." </b> Please check the Strong's concordance for the true meaning of this word. Is the act of kissing someone's hand the same as worshipping him? <b>Once again, Christians used to do “selective translation” to suite their beliefs.</b>
Now, when you compare the meaning of the word ‘worship’ with the verses that I’ve quoted from the OT you will see no difference.
<b>But what did I really ask you to show me?</b> I asked you to show me <b>ONE SINGLE VERSE QUOTED BY JESUS HIMSELF WHERE HE SAID I AM GOD ALMIGHTY, OR WHERE HE SAID WORSHIP ME. Do you have such verses? Yes or no? </b>
Quote:When you study the Old & New Testaments without an ulterior motive, it becomes crystal clear that Jesus is the Son of God. I recommend you buy a Bible with Catholic commentary to assist you in interpreting verses. Otherwise learn Hebrew & Greek & read the ancient manuscripts!
again and again, I don’t object using the term son of God, BUT <b>the term son of God does not mean God Himself.</b>
Plus, I do have the Catholic Version of the Bible and also I have the Jerusalem Bible that was brought to me by an Israeli friend from Jerusalem, (I also have bunch of other Bible versions).
Where are the ancient manuscripts that you are talking about?
Quote:You know, I can't picture Jesus Christ explicitly bragging about His divinity.
That’s all what I need to hear from you, no where in the Bible will we ever see Jesus declaring Divinity, unlike the God of the OT. So I don’t believe that Jesus was God.
<b>END OF THE STORY… </b>
I do respect what you believe anyway...
Quote:The Son of God is the Son of God. A son of God is a son of God. Pretty self-explanatory & not confusing one bit!
are you making distinction between "The" and "A"? doesnt the Bible say "That<b> THE SONS OF GOD </b> saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took wives of all which they chose"
Anyway, being the son of God does not mean that Jesus himself is God, how can anyone be the son of God and God Himself at the same moment, can anyone be the son of himself??? can we have a tall short man at the same time???
Quote:Please keep in mind what I said ages ago... Jesus is the Son of God... but... God is not Jesus! God is the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. Very important!
Ok I will agree with you on the first part… God is not Jesus (which also means that Jesus is not God... what I was saying ages ago)… but to say that all of them formed the same one God, then I would conclude that neither of them is a Complete God. am sorry, the second part of your statement is always confusing and no human mind could ever comprehend.
Quote:Okie dokie! You seem to be more interested in questioning my beliefs than expressing your own - hahaha!
I just answer what am really sure of, I cannot offer any answer without certain knowledge.
Please note that I’ve not responded to many of your points on this post because I found that am going only to repeat myself and that is not going to benefit anybody.
Salam and may Allah open your heart to His way. Ameen.
Wael.
A Comparison - Teh_Curious - 02-03-2007
lol religeous doctrine can be argued about till the cows come home but it doesnt address the "ORIGINAL" point of the thread
that is Jesus led by example, Mo took what he wanted when he wanted from who ever he wanted. Mo has no Moral or ethical grounds to be called a prophet of God.
A Comparison - Faith Hope Charity - 02-03-2007
In the Name of God - Creator Redeemer Sanctifier!
Assalamo Alikum, Wael!
I have to keep this post short & sweet - Star Academy's about to start (Go Lebanon & Egypt!!!) :)
Firstly, TC has a point. We won't get anywhere discussing Christian doctrines. If you stop bringing up the faith, I promise I'll remain silent ;) At the rate we're going, I'll never have a chance to read up on Apostasy - LOL!
Secondly, thank you for all the compliments :blush: Sorry if you feel as though I was coming across judgemental. I should learn to be less defensive :P Anyways, I hold you in very high regards! You're a gem!
That's enough of the cheesiness - hehe! Let's get down to business!
The same word "worship" is also used in St Luke 24:52 - the disciples worshipped Jesus AFTER He ascended into Heaven, therefore, the evangelist didn't intend to portray your idea of worship because Christ was no longer standing before them. By the way, even if these verses weren't included in the Bible, I'd still be 100% positive that Jesus' disciples worshipped Him. I have no doubt in my mind that He's the Son of God. My mother, the Church, tells me so.
I don't expect you to believe that Jesus Christ is God. You're a Muslim!
On one hand, you are a son of God & I am a daughter of God. On the other hand, the Three Divine Persons in the One True God are: God the Father; God the Son; God the Holy Spirit. There is only one begotten Son of God.
The ancient manuscripts are written in their original languages. They are identical to what you read today in your Catholic Bible. The Church has preserved over 5000 manuscripts of various books contained in the Bible that date as far back as the 1st Century AD, e.g. Chester Beatty Papyri, Bodmer Papyri, Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus, etc. Run a Google search or alternatively, pay the Vatican a visit - hehe!
Star Academy just started! I'll catch you later, Mate!
From the depth of my heart & soul, I wish you peace, health & happiness :)
Take care & God bless.
A Comparison - Muslimah - 02-03-2007
Bismillah
Quote:lol religeous doctrine can be argued about till the cows come home but it doesnt address the "ORIGINAL" point of the thread
that is Jesus led by example, Mo took what he wanted when he wanted from who ever he wanted. Mo has no Moral or ethical grounds to be called a prophet of God.
whom are u talking about here, care to clarify? since u r using an acronym ?
A Comparison - wel_mel_2 - 02-05-2007
Bismillah:
Quote:that is Jesus led by example, Mo took what he wanted when he wanted from who ever he wanted. Mo has no Moral or ethical grounds to be called a prophet of God.
You’ve been showing a very bad attitude towards us and towards the best of all Creation the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. And I wonder why your fellow Christians on this board like FHC who is one of my favorite Christians did not try to stop you even once from showing such bad and wicked behavior which I believe that it does not in anyway represent the faith of Christianity and the teaching of Jesus pbuh.
Whenever we mention the name of Jesus Christ we immediately add the phrase “peace be upon him” out of respect and reverence for this great man of God, but see how disrespectful person you are to refer to our beloved Prophet pbuh as ‘Mo’!!! Don’t you have enough fingers to type his full name? If you hate him that much, then why did you come here in the first place?
Anyway, we have learned from our Prophet pbuh to deal justly with all creatures, and so I will try my ver best to respond to your false allegations, Insh a Allah.
Quote:Jesus led by example,
am sorry, but what example are you talking about? <b>Are you talking about the account of Paul who has preached in the NT more than anyone else and more than Jesus himself? </b> Out of the 27 Books of the New Testament, more than half is authored by Paul. As opposed to Paul, <b>the Master has not written a single word of the twenty seven books</b>. If you can lay your hands on what is called "'A Red Letter Bible," you will find every word alleged to have been uttered by Jesus pbuh in red ink and the rest in normal black ink. <b>Don't be shocked to find that in this so called ‘Gospel of Jesus’, over 90% of the 27 Books of the New Testament is printed in black ink!</b> So what example are you talking about? Maybe you mean the example of Paul and not Jesus.
<b>Can you follow the example of Jesus pbuh as a father, grandfather, a husband, a military leader, etc???</b> <b>You simply cannot follow the example of Jesus Christ pbuh in all aspect of life</b>. Alhamdulelah, anything that we need in our life, whether social, economic, political, religious, commercial and cultural issues, <b>can be found only in the life of Muhammad peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. </b>
Quote:"Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"
Lamartine, HISTOIRE DE LA TURQUIE, Paris, 1854, Vol. II, pp. 276-277.
Quote:"Head of the state as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one; but, he was pope without the pope's claims, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue. If ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by a Right Divine, it was Mohammad, for he had all the power without instruments and without its support. He cared not for dressing of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life."
Reverend R. Bosworth-Smith wrote in "Mohammed & Mohammedanism" in 1946
Quote:Mo took what he wanted when he wanted from who ever he wanted.
Ah yeah, and that’s why people called him <b>the Truthful, the Trustworthy</b> even before his claim of prophethood. If he was dishonest and ready to take what he wanted when he wanted from whoever he wanted as you said, then you have to explain why when Khadija RA was looking for someone to take care of her business in Syria, she was told that Muhammad pbuh was the most suitable one for this job because he was honest and honorable man that who could be entrust with her trade, and this too was before their marriage and before his prophethood.
<b>Encyclopedia Britannica confirms:</b>
Quote:(regarding Muhammad) "... a mass of detail in the early sources shows that he was an honest and upright man who had gained the respect and loyalty of others who were likewise honest and upright men." Vol. 12
<b>Your statement do not fit such an honest and trusted person, your statement is nothing but lie.</b>
Quote:Mo has no Moral or ethical grounds to be called a prophet of God.
<b>TOTAL IGNORANCE...
</b>
I cannot justly respond to this accusation in one post, we need volumes and volumes just to describe the manners and morals of Prophet Muhammad pbuh... <b>So if you are truly honest with yourself and care to learn more about this great man pbuh, then click on the following link and do yourself a favor by learning morals and ethics through the best example ever sent to the whole humanity, Muhammad pbuh. </b>
Muhammad's pbuh manners
Salam
Wael.
A Comparison - wel_mel_2 - 02-05-2007
Bismillah:
Assalamo Alikum.
Quote:The same word "worship" is also used in St Luke 24:52 - the disciples worshipped Jesus AFTER He ascended into Heaven, therefore, the evangelist didn't intend to portray your idea of worship because Christ was no longer standing before them. By the way, even if these verses weren't included in the Bible, I'd still be 100% positive that Jesus' disciples worshipped Him. I have no doubt in my mind that He's the Son of God. My mother, the Church, tells me so.
Yes I too believe that the Church <b>told you </b> this, they even taught you that he was God himself; however, what I was hoping to find out and embrace is what he clearly said about himself, and we already understand from our previous posts that he himself did not claim divinity but some other people thought, believed, declared that he was God... Anyway, we will not get into the same thing again or else we will be running after each other in a big circle. :D :D :D
Quote:I don't expect you to believe that Jesus Christ is God. You're a Muslim!
But I do expect you and other Christians to believe that he was not God. Insh a Allah.
Quote:The ancient manuscripts are written in their original languages. They are identical to what you read today in your Catholic Bible. The Church has preserved over 5000 manuscripts of various books contained in the Bible that date as far back as the 1st Century AD, e.g. Chester Beatty Papyri, Bodmer Papyri, Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus, etc. Run a Google search or alternatively, pay the Vatican a visit - hehe!
This topic is really huge and we may start a new thread to see whether the original manuscripts do really exist or not. (But don’t get emotional or else no need to discuss this topic at all) :P
Assalamo Alikum FHC.
Wael
A Comparison - Faith Hope Charity - 02-05-2007
Glory to the Word made flesh!
May the peace of God be among us, now & forever!
Quote:You’ve been showing a very bad attitude towards us and towards the best of all Creation the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. And I wonder why your fellow Christians on this board like FHC who is one of my favorite Christians did not try to stop you even once from showing such bad and wicked behavior which I believe that it does not in anyway represent the faith of Christianity and the teaching of Jesus pbuh.
I'm one of your favourites :wub: My head has suddenly doubled in size - hahaha!
If TC approaches me for advice, I'll be happy to offer it. But he doesn't identify himself as a Catholic, so I really have no say over him.
"I am a little pencil in the hand of a writing God who is sending a love letter to the world." - Blessed Mother Teresa (please pray for us).
Quote:and we already understand from our previous posts that he himself did not claim divinity but some other people thought, believed, declared that he was God... Anyway, we will not get into the same thing again or else we will be running after each other in a big circle. :D :D :D
You're so cheeky :P
"We" don't understand the same thing... what I understand couldn't be further from what you understand, man :lol:
Okay, let's call it quits :)
Quote:This topic is really huge and we may start a new thread to see whether the original manuscripts do really exist or not. (But don’t get emotional or else no need to discuss this topic at all)
I'll try to control my emotions, I promise ;)
I have no doubt in my mind that these manuscripts exist... because the Church says they do - LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!
As always... take care & God bless.
A Comparison - Faith Hope Charity - 02-06-2007
In the Name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit.
May the peace of Jesus Christ be with you!
2 points I forgot to mention in my previous post (we should be given more time to edit)...
Quote:Whenever we mention the name of Jesus Christ we immediately add the phrase “peace be upon him” out of respect and reverence for this great man of God, but see how disrespectful person you are to refer to our beloved Prophet pbuh as ‘Mo’!!! Don’t you have enough fingers to type his full name? If you hate him that much, then why did you come here in the first place?
Wael, in Oz, many guys named "Mohammad" are given (at their request) the nickname "Mo". We, Aussies, are very lazy with our tongue - we break down words & sentences in order to say as little as possible. Even our news reporters speak very casually. So, I don't think TC meant anything bad by what he said. Consider his intentions. Now that he's aware how Muslims feel about this issue, I'm sure he'll think twice about it next time.
Quote:But I do expect you and other Christians to believe that he was not God. Insh a Allah.
Jesus Christ IS, WAS & ALWAYS WILL BE God - "I am the Alpha & the Omega, who is & who was & who is to come, the Almighty" (Revelations 1:8). As far as I'm concerned, my beliefs will never change. Insh a Allah, you won't be too let down & we can remain friends :)
God bless.
A Comparison - wel_mel_2 - 02-06-2007
Bismillah:
Quote:I have no doubt in my mind that these manuscripts exist... because the Church says they do - LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!
Ok then, I will prepare my topic and insh a Allah post it shortly, don’t know when! but I will work on it insh a Allah.
Salam
Wael.