John 1 - Printable Version

John 1 - Printable Version

+- Forums (https://bb.islamsms.com)
+-- Forum: ENGLISH (https://bb.islamsms.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=5)
+--- Forum: Discussion of Beliefs (https://bb.islamsms.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=25)
+--- Thread: John 1 (/showthread.php?tid=6066)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

John 1 - Faith Hope Charity - 08-03-2009

Peace!

Quote:Ok, I did really understand what you mean by that! Is it a confirmation to my understanding? that (according to you) Jesus died as a complete person, human and God at the same time?

As you know, I avoid yes or no answers because I'm sceptikal of you & your attempts to trap non-Muslims :P But more importantly because I like to provoke you to discover the answers for yourself. Therefore, I will put it another way...

The Word became flesh & His heart was pierced for our sins & our salvation. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to pay a debt He didn't owe because humanity owed a debt it couldn't pay.

I have way too much fun here! Thanks :D

God bless.

John 1 - wel_mel_2 - 08-03-2009

Quote:Peace!
As you know, I avoid yes or no answers because I'm sceptikal of you & your attempts to trap non-Muslims :P But more importantly because I like to provoke you to discover the answers for yourself.

OK then, my question remains unanswered. Thanks

Wael.

John 1 - Faith Hope Charity - 08-03-2009

Peace be with you, my unenlightened friend!

Quote:OK then, my question remains unanswered. Thanks

Hahaha! When the faculties of the mind fail, get down on your knees & make du'a.

John 1 - wel_mel_2 - 08-03-2009

Quote:Peace be with you, my unenlightened friend!
Hahaha! When the faculties of the mind fail, get down on your knees & make du'a.

My impression is that you are ashamed of saying that he died as a man and God at the same time, and so instead of offering straight answer to my simple and basic question, you don't take my topic seriously and simply 'have fun'

Salam

Wael.

John 1 - Steve Consilvio - 08-03-2009

Quote:And so to conclude this topic, i would say that Jesus did not simply die as human being, but also as fully divine/God.
Salam

Wael.

Well, isn't that what you have been arguing all along?

You started off with a belief, which was obvious in the question, and then confirmed the belief that you wanted to find. You asked questions of what we believed, but nothing we could have said would have altered your 'new' conclusion.

I forget what the term is, but I think it is called 'confirmation bias.'

To be frank, I also think that FHC also has some confirmation bias, too.

On the other hand, I am relentlessly critical of my own ideas. (That makes me a little weird, since I am constantly struggling with myself.)

A Muslim decides that Jesus isn't special. lol Nobody could see that coming, right? And Christians think they are saved, but nobody else. Rational humanists are sure that their secular scientific approach is best, too. And the Jews know that God only loves them, and nobody else.

If you don't mind my asking, how old are you?

And if Jesus died, and was not divine, then what happens to all the Christians, in your neat little world, and everyone else? Are Muslims the only ones going to heaven? Or is heaven not real either? What is your evidence for that question?

Pride is such a funny thing. Obvious to all, yet invisible to it victim.

John 1 - wel_mel_2 - 08-03-2009

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Quote:Well, isn't that what you have been arguing all along?

No, my question was based on verses found in the Bible. your approach was that Trinity is a mystery that we can’t fully comprehend, but based on FHC explanation, Jesus as a whole person (human and divine) did die. So I was only concluding in a simple language what FHC indicates.

Quote:If you don't mind my asking, how old are you?

I don't mind at all, i am 34

Quote:And if Jesus died, and was not divine, then what happens to all the Christians, in your neat little world, and everyone else? Are Muslims the only ones going to heaven? Or is heaven not real either? What is your evidence for that question?

I guess you may start new threads if you have some questions unrelated to our topic here.

Salam

Wael.

John 1 - Faith Hope Charity - 08-03-2009

Peace be with you!

Quote:My impression is that you are ashamed of saying that he died as a man and God at the same time, and so instead of offering straight answer to my simple and basic question, you don't take my topic seriously and simply 'have fun'

Let's recap on the countless times & ways I've answered your never-ending & unchanging question...

Post #5

Quote:Jesus Christ is the Son of God incarnate. He is one Person, not two. Therefore, it is fitting to say that the Son of God died, only possible because He assumed a mortal human nature.

Post #17

Quote:Therefore, God (the Most Holy Trinity) did not die. Jesus, the Son of God, who is eternally Divine, became Man & died for us.

Post #21

Quote:You can't separate the two. He's One Persen, remember?
It's the same with death - a person dies not a nature. Jesus' two natures were perfectly united into One Person.

Just in case you're wondering... the Son of God was not able to die until He became Man. The Incarnation is the key factor.

Post #27

Quote:Jesus, as a Person died, but even in the case of a human being, the living principle (the soul) goes on living after death - only the body dies. Jesus' "divine part" & His Human Soul did not cease to exist.

Post #33

Quote:Without a human nature, the Son of God could not have died.

Post #37

Quote:The two natures (divine & human) are perfectly united & cannot be separated in the 2nd Person of the Most Holy Trinity after the Incarnation.

Post #39

Quote:God loves me & gave Himself for me.

Post #41

Quote:The Word became flesh & His heart was pierced for our sins & our salvation. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to pay a debt He didn't owe because humanity owed a debt it couldn't pay.

Do you see the humour from my perspective?

I wasn't joking about du'a though. If your intellect is unable to grasp God's truth, then my spiritual advice would be to ask for divine intervention.

Alternatively, you can research the theological & philosophical definitions of the terms: "person", "nature", "divine" & "death", in order to gain a better understanding of Catholic doctrine.

I'm not sure If I can further effectively contribute to this discussion. Clearly, we're on different levels & aren't comphrending one another's articulation. If I haven't answered your question sufficiently, then I don't quite understand what it is you're actually asking.

God bless.

John 1 - wel_mel_2 - 08-03-2009

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Let me also remind you of my responses to your posts.

My response to your post #5 is to be found in post#12 where I said:

Quote:Again, this does not help answering my question at all. I already understood that Jesus is one person (i.e. the second person of the Triune God). But you are saying that he is totally and fully God as well. So in the beginning the son Jesus was there with God, who Himself was God and then later he/God/Jesus became human and died on the Cross.
Can't you see FHC? God Himself died not just the human Jesus.

So your post#5 does not answer my question.

My response to your post#17 is found om post#19

Quote:I don’t argue in my topic about who God is, I only asked who died on the Cross? Jesus the human or the Divine? If only the flesh part that dies, then how come the Word which is God died according to John 14? And if Jesus the divine, then how can he who is according to you eternally Divine simply die?

In your post#21 I replied you with a question to be found in post#23

Quote:Alright, so in short, Jesus died as a whole, including the divine part, is that correct?

But again, you didn’t give me straight forward answer. So after your post#27 I gave up asking you anymore, I said in my post#28

Quote:I think I will stop here and see what everyone else think of this discussion so far

So when finally you gave clear answer in your post#33, I concluded in my post#38 that:

Quote:And so to conclude this topic, i would say that Jesus did not simply die as human being, but also as fully divine/God

But you came with some weird statement in post#39 so I wanted to make sure whether this was a confirmation to my understanding in post#41

Quote:Ok, I did not really understand what you mean by that! Is it a confirmation to my understanding? that (according to you) Jesus died as a complete person, human and God at the same time?

But instead of closing this chapter by straight forward answer, you judged me that I am actually trying to trap you or non Muslims in general, and so my question from your side remains unanswered. I truly appreciate steve’s sincerity in answering my posts, though we have disagreed on almost everything, but he was not wasting time ‘having fun’ as you did.

Quote:I'm not sure If I can further effectively contribute to this discussion.

You have already said what you were told to say in your Church, you just refused to accept any other logic and did not consider the slightest possibility that we might be right in what we are saying.

Salam

Wael

John 1 - Faith Hope Charity - 08-03-2009

Peace be with you!

I'll start over. This is purely for my benefit, not yours... because I care.

The Son of God & Jesus Christ are the Same Person. That One Person has always existed. He is God's only begotten Son. Co-eternal. He possesses a Divine Nature. Jesus Christ is the Name given to the Son of God over 2000 years ago when the Incarnation took place. The Incarnation refers to the moment in history when the Son of God assumed a human nature & everything that goes along with it, including a human soul & mortality of the flesh. The Son of God suddenly possessed Two Natures which subsisted in the One Divine Person in what is known as the Hypostatic Union. That One Person freely offered His Life on earth for the reparation of the sins of humanity. He died on the Cross. At that moment His Human Soul left His Human Body. His Body was laid in a tomb. His Human Soul still united to His Divinity were untouched - They cannot cease to exist. That One Person descended to the dead & preached to the souls in Abraham's bosom for three days, His Body still in the tomb. After three days, He reunited with His Body & rose from the dead. He ascended into heaven - Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity. He is One Person. He always was, He always will be. One Person was made incarnate, One Person died, One Person rose again, One Person ascended. That One Person is Jesus Christ, The Son of God. "Jesus Christ" & "The Son of God" can be used interchangeably. Yes, Jesus Christ died; Yes, The Son of God died - not two persons, but One Person - Jesus Christ and The Son of God are One (& the Same) Person.

Yes, I'm still having fun :) I live for this stuff!

Allah hafiz.

John 1 - wel_mel_2 - 08-03-2009

Quote:Peace be with you!
I'll start over. This is purely for my benefit, not yours... because I care.

Believe me Kathie, I care too but you just think that i am trying to corner you.

Quote:The Son of God & Jesus Christ are the Same Person. That One Person has always existed. He is God's only begotten Son. Co-eternal. He possesses a Divine Nature. Jesus Christ is the Name given to the Son of God over 2000 years ago when the Incarnation took place. The Incarnation refers to the moment in history when the Son of God assumed a human nature & everything that goes along with it, including a human soul & mortality of the flesh. The Son of God suddenly possessed Two Natures which subsisted in the One Divine Person in what is known as the Hypostatic Union. That One Person freely offered His Life on earth for the reparation of the sins of humanity. He died on the Cross. At that moment His Human Soul left His Human Body. His Body was laid in a tomb. His Human Soul still united to His Divinity were untouched - They cannot cease to exist. That One Person descended to the dead & preached to the souls in Abraham's bosom for three days, His Body still in the tomb. After three days, He reunited with His Body & rose from the dead. He ascended into heaven - Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity. He is One Person. He always was, He always will be. One Person was made incarnate, One Person died, One Person rose again, One Person ascended. That One Person is Jesus Christ, The Son of God. "Jesus Christ" & "The Son of God" can be used interchangeably. Yes, Jesus Christ died; Yes, The Son of God died - not two persons, but One Person - Jesus Christ and The Son of God are One (& the Same) Person.

I am not confused whether Jesus is one person or two. I was asking whether he died as human or God, so your answer was that he did die as one person, human and God at the same time. Is that very hard for you to utter or am I incorrect in my conclusion?

- Jesus is the Word, which was with God which was GOD, so Jesus is not simply a divine being, but also GOD HIMSELF according to the gospel of John. And that GOD/WORD died on the cross.

Salam

Wael.