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Let get into the beliefs of the Christians - Al-fateh - 04-10-2007
Quote:In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit - One God - now & forever. Amen.
in the name Of Allah, Arrahman, Arraheem
Quote:May the Peace of Our Lord & Saviour be with you!
The Most Holy Trinity is a mystery but not a contradiction. I've explained it a million times on these boards. Just think of water - one substance in three forms: liquid, ice & steam.
it is not a mystery, it contradicts the sound mind, its very simple actually. water is not water anymore if mixed with other substances, a perfect example is a Pepsie can...how come u dont call it water anymore? so the sound mind tells u it has changed to something else...if GOD is changing then he is not a GOD, cz his absolute uniqness is gone.
Quote:The Incarnation can be likened to water being mixed with salt, leaving you with saltwater (a weak & probably flawed analogy - I literally just made it up myself 2 seconds ago).
i think i explained that above....
Quote:How do we change God from chocolate pudding to a kitkat (thanks for making me crave it by the way)?
I know the Incarnation is repugnant to Muslims & I can totally live with that. But it doesn't change anything from my end.
incarnation....attributed to GOD??? u love giving GOD human qualities dont you? ur faith calims him being a man, did he have to go to the bathroom? did he vomit? did he get sick? did he bleed? did he get weak? did he get tired? these are all human qualities... GOD is above such qualtities from which he himself has created.
Quote:Jesus Christ is both Divine & Human. If God wants His Son to become human & die on the Cross for our salvation, who's going to stop Him?
Divine and human? thats a contraiction in itself, what is divine is divine, and what is human is human.... If God wanted to send a DOG he could have, no one can stop him, but GOD does what befits his status, being the Creator of all things....
According to Catholicism...
Quote:When God created Adam, He didn't will that Adam disobey Him. Adam freely broke God's Commandment & as a consequence, fell from grace. God promised to send a Redeemer & bring Adam to His original state. Every human descendent from Adam inherited original Sin & share in Adam's fallen human nature. We needed a sinless & flawless Person to destroy the power of evil that hung over humanity, therefore, it was fitting for God to send His only-begotten Son to make up for what His first created son did & restore life. God's Creation. God's Redemption. God's Sanctification. Simple yet profound!
From an Islamic viewpoint - maybe! But not in Christianity. Did you read the explanations in the other thread? Please do. It's bound to make sense to you sooner or later.
according to this myth..all the prophets of GOD failed, and he had to come down and do the job himself..."if u gotta do something, u gotta do it urself" this is an insult to the perfection of GOD.
Adam is a very different discussion than this one... but the similtude of Adam is not to be compared with God, Adam is a creation, and GOD is the creator, they dont collide with equal forces...
http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=4146
Quote:Please explain it to me (if you don't mind). After all, this is an Islamic forum :D
i will start a thread on it...patience my dear
Quote:Merci ya zalami :) Ahlan fik! Zahle's my favourite place in the whole wide world.
I miss it more than you :(
wala yhimik ya bint.... mnirja3 shi nhar!!
Quote:Where do you live now? Did you live there as a child, teenager or adult?
I agree! I think they go too far when they're willing to sacrifice their lives & dignity for a piece of land. As much as I love Libnan, I wouldn't compromise my religious beliefs or die for it.
i live in Miami, FL now... mom is Lebanese and FAther was born in Leb, originally from a palastinian origin.
I am a Lebanese at the very core, i eat their food, speak their language, understand their minds, joke the jokes they do (no one can get them other than them for some reason)
Lebanese are good people, but their pride is a little too much sometimes
Quote:For he record, I'm very fond of Faoud Sanioira. He's a top Prime Minister. Allah ayishou wa ayish Libnan!
politics and dipers have one thing in common (S**T)
What Arab country do you originate from?
Quote:I respect your beliefs & I hope you can respect mine. I'll never impose The Faith on you nor will I ever denounce it. I hope you can live with that & Insha a Allah we can still be "friends" (I use that term loosely because I just found out in another thread that Muslims can't befriend non-believers).
no at all im not here to make an enemy of you, we Muslims show understanding to one another and it is commanded to us to convey peace among the rest of the religions. Now as for Muslims telling you that they should not befried the unbelievers, they DONT know the reason of revelation of this verse, each verse in the Quran has a reason of revlation, a timeline, and a hitorical event that the prophet went thru and experienced, thus the verse.
one cannot pick verses from the Quran and simply throw it as he wishes on the rest to fit his own desires, i will get u the explanation of that verse soon.
Let get into the beliefs of the Christians - Al-fateh - 04-10-2007
Question:
Why is it so difficult for the Muslims to believe that Christ was crucified to erase our sins? Why do they reject the idea of the Crucifixion altogether?.
Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.
There is nothing strange about the Muslims rejecting this idea, because the Qur’aan in which they believe and accept what it tells them definitively states that that did not happen, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And because of their saying (in boast), ‘We killed Messiah ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allaah,’ — but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them the resemblance of ‘Eesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)], and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)]”
[al-Nisa’ 4:157]
Rather the problem rests with the Christians for whom the doctrine of the crucifixion and redemption has become a central issue, so much so that the cross is the symbol of their religion.
It is strange that they differ concerning the form of this cross which indicates their confusion about this fabrication.
There are differences between their Gospels and their historians regarding everything that has to do with the story of the crucifixion.
They differ concerning the timing of the Last Supper, which according to them was one of the events in the lead-up to the crucifixion. They differ concerning the traitor who led (the Romans) to Christ – did that happen at least one day before the Last Supper, as narrated by Luke, or during it, after Christ gave him the piece of bread, as narrated by John?
Was Christ the one who carried his cross, as John says, as was customary with one who was going to be crucified, according to Nottingham, or was it Simon of Cyrene, as the other three Gospels state?
They say that two thieves were crucified alongside Christ, one on his right and one on his left, so what was the attitude of these two towards the Messiah who was being crucified, as they claim?
Did the thieves scorn him for being crucified, and say that his Lord had abandoned him and left him to his enemies? Or did only one of them scorn him, and did the other rebuke the one who scorned him?
At what hour did this crucifixion take place – was it in the third hour, as Mark says, or in the sixth as John says?
What happened after the so-called crucifixion?
Mark says that the veil of the Temple was torn from top to bottom. Matthew adds that the earth shook and rocks crumbled, and many of the saints rose from their graves and entered the holy city, appearing to many. Luke says that the sun turned dark, and the veil of the Temple was torn in the middle, and when the centurion saw what had happened, he glorified God and said, “Truly this man was righteous.”
But John does not know anything about all that!
These are not the only weak elements and indications of falseness in the story of the crucifixion, as narrated in the gospels. Rather the one who studies the details of the gospel narratives of this story will, with the least effort, notice the great differences in the details of this story, which are such that it is impossible to believe it all or even any part of it!
How desperate are the failed attempts to fill this gap and conceal the faults of this distorted book. Allaah indeed spoke the truth when He said in His Book which He has preserved (interpretation of the meaning):
“Do they not then consider the Qur’aan carefully? Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely, have found therein many a contradiction”
[al-Nisa’ 4:82]
Apart from the fact that the gospel accounts are not sound, and their authors themselves admit that they were not revealed to the Messiah in this form, nor were they even written during his lifetime, none of the witnesses were present at the events to which they testify, as Mark says:
“Then everyone deserted him and fled.”
Mark 14:50 – New International Version (NIV)
Because these events were not witnessed by anyone who narrated them, there is a great deal of room for imagination and poetic licence.
We will complete our discussion of the fable of the crucifixion of Christ (peace be upon him) by looking at what the Gospels say about the Messiah’s prediction that he would be saved from death:
On one occasion the Pharisees and chief priests sent the guards to arrest him and he said to them:
“I am with you for only a short time, and then I go to the one who sent me. You will look for me, but you will not find me, and where I am, you cannot come.”
John 7:33-34 – NIV
Elsewhere he says:
“Once more Jesus said to them, ‘I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.’
This made the Jews ask, ‘Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, “Where I go, you cannot come”?’
But he continued, ‘You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.’
‘Who are you?’ they asked.
‘Just what I have been claiming all along,’ Jesus replied. ‘I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.’
They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father.
So Jesus said, ‘When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.’”
John 8:21-29 – NIV
Then at the end he tells them again:
“For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'”
Matthew 23:39 – NIV, also Luke 13:35
The Messiah, as these texts and others show, was certain that God would never hand him over to his enemies, and would never forsake him.
“But a time is coming, and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.
I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”
John 16:32-33
Because of that the passers by, and indeed everyone who attended the so-called crucifixion, mocked the Messiah, as the writer of this Gospel says (although that could not have been true):
“Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads
and saying, ‘You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!’
In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him.
‘He saved others,’ they said, ‘but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him.
He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, “I am the Son of God.”’
In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.”
Matthew 27:39-44 – NIV
But it seems that Jesus’ certainty that God was with him began to waver, according to the distorted Gospel narrative, (although that could not have been true):
“Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, ‘Sit here while I go over there and pray.’
He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.
Then he said to them, ‘My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.’
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.’
Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping.
…
He went away a second time and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.’
When he came back, he again found them sleeping, …
So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.
Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, ‘Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners’”
Matthew 26:36-45 – NIV
Luke describes the scene and says:
“And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.
When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow.
‘Why are you sleeping?’ he asked them. ‘Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation.’”
Luke 22:44-46 – NIV
Because of this mockery of the message of Christ – according to their claims – and because Christ thought that God was with him and would never forsake him, then it follows that the writer who fabricated this dramatic scene would end it with a vision of the despair of the Messiah and his feelings of being abandoned by God – exalted be Allaah far above what the wrongdoers say. The fabricator says:
“From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land.
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?’--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Matthew 27:38-47 – NIV
See also Mark 15:34
If we understand what this story means when subjected to criticism, the same will apply to the doctrine of redemption and sacrifice that is based on it.
With regard to the Christian doctrine of salvation, see also question no. 6
And Allaah is the Source of strength and the guide to the Straight Path, and there is no Lord but He.
Islam Q&A
Let get into the beliefs of the Christians - Faith Hope Charity - 04-26-2007
In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit - One God - now & forever. Amen.
May the peace of Christ be with you!
it is not a mystery, it contradicts the sound mind, its very simple actually. water is not water anymore if mixed with other substances, a perfect example is a Pepsie can...how come u dont call it water anymore? so the sound mind tells u it has changed to something else...if GOD is changing then he is not a GOD, cz his absolute uniqness is gone.
The water analogy relates to the Most Holy Trinity, not the Incarnation.
But since you brought it up, Pepsi is probably a poor example because it contains several ingredients. Saltwater is a little bit better.
i think i explained that above....
We're just going around in circles aren't we? Hehe!
incarnation....attributed to GOD??? u love giving GOD human qualities dont you? ur faith calims him being a man, did he have to go to the bathroom? did he vomit? did he get sick? did he bleed? did he get weak? did he get tired? these are all human qualities... GOD is above such qualtities from which he himself has created.
The Incarnation is not an attribute.
Jesus - the Son of God Incarnate - possess human qualities in their fullest. He became Man in every sense of the word. Jesus Christ is the very definition of what "man" is. The Word made Flesh assumed all things human (except the capacity to sin of course). Please remember, He never ceased being divine though.
The human behaviour you mentioned isn't evil. Jesus Christ dignified humanity. In no way did He degrade it.
Divine and human? thats a contraiction in itself, what is divine is divine, and what is human is human.... If God wanted to send a DOG he could have, no one can stop him, but GOD does what befits his status, being the Creator of all things....
Which is exactly why we believe that the Jesus Christ - teh Son of God Incarnate - is 100% human & 100% divine. It's not a 50/50 proposition. Therefore, it's not a contradiction.
What exactly is "man" to you? Whenever we discuss the Incarnation, you make me feel dirty simply because I'm a human being. You need to remember that Christians believe that homo sapiens are made in the image & likeness of God. There's no way you can ever begin to understand the Incarnation if you don't know basic metaphysics.
according to this myth..all the prophets of GOD failed, and he had to come down and do the job himself..."if u gotta do something, u gotta do it urself" this is an insult to the perfection of GOD.
Subhan Allah. You've hit the nail on the head. That's exactly why the Son of God became Man. The 5 men Yahweh established a covenant with in the O/T (Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses & David) were supposed to be the mediators between God & man but each one failed miserably by violating their covenants. God cannot break a covenant, therefore, He established the New & Everlasting Covenant with Himself.
How on earth is this an insult to the Perfection of God?
Adam is a very different discussion than this one... but the similtude of Adam is not to be compared with God, Adam is a creation, and GOD is the creator, they dont collide with equal forces...
Hang on, I'm confused. What do you mean? Indeed, God's the Creator & Adam's a creature. What did I say that triggered your above statement?
i will start a thread on it...patience my dear
:lol: bi amrak!
wala yhimik ya bint.... mnirja3 shi nhar!!
Iza Allah bi rid ya khaye.
i live in Miami, FL now... mom is Lebanese and FAther was born in Leb, originally from a palastinian origin.
I am a Lebanese at the very core, i eat their food, speak their language, understand their minds, joke the jokes they do (no one can get them other than them for some reason)
Lebanese are good people, but their pride is a little too much sometimes
Miami? Salemli ala Shaquille :thumb:
Being Lebanese is both a blessing & a curse. I wouldn't want to belong to any other culture (pride ;)), but there's not a more dangerous place to live in than Lebanon. Dianyak ya watani.
One more question... how old are you? Did you live through the devestating war?
What Arab country do you originate from?
Both my parents are Phoenicians :D :lol: :P ;)
no at all im not here to make an enemy of you, we Muslims show understanding to one another and it is commanded to us to convey peace among the rest of the religions. Now as for Muslims telling you that they should not befried the unbelievers, they DONT know the reason of revelation of this verse, each verse in the Quran has a reason of revlation, a timeline, and a hitorical event that the prophet went thru and experienced, thus the verse.
one cannot pick verses from the Quran and simply throw it as he wishes on the rest to fit his own desires, i will get u the explanation of that verse soon.
That puts a smile on my face. The reason why I love Lebanon so much is because the citizens (Muslims & Christians) are united as one family. They look out for each other. There's no "us vs them" mentality (unless you're a lousy politician). InshaAllah we can be light for the rest of the world.
I'm off to bed now. I'll have to postpone my reply to your other post until tomorrow. Sorry habib!
Tisbahu ala kair.
Let get into the beliefs of the Christians - wel_mel_2 - 04-27-2007
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
What makes me more confuse now regarding Trinity is that Christians say that Jesus’ body dies <b>but his spirit was always alive and never taste death</b>, please bear in mind that we have 2 more persons who complete the God of Christians and these persons are The Father and the Holy Ghost. Now please count with me how many persons do we have in Trinity.
1- The Father
2- The Holy Ghost
3- The son (Jesus in his human body form)… A N D
4- Jesus also but in his spirit form which was there since the very beginning and never die.
Guess what? Christians will never admit that these are 4 persons.
Salam
Wael
Let get into the beliefs of the Christians - Faith Hope Charity - 04-27-2007
In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit - One God - now & forever. Amen.
May the peace of Christ be with you!
Quote:What makes me more confuse now regarding Trinity is that Christians say that Jesus’ body dies <b>but his spirit was always alive and never taste death</b>, please bear in mind that we have 2 more persons who complete the God of Christians and these persons are The Father and the Holy Ghost. Now please count with me how many persons do we have in Trinity.
1- The Father
2- The Holy Ghost
3- The son (Jesus in his human body form)… A N D
4- Jesus also but in his spirit form which was there since the very beginning and never die.
Guess what? Christians will never admit that these are 4 persons.
Wael, please come back to planet earth, bro! I demand a recount :P
What happens when we die? (could you please answer that from an Islamic perspective? - thanks :thumb:)
Christians believe that the human soul is immortal. When we die, the soul separates from the body. The body is then lifeless. The soul enters into the afterlife.
The Incarnation means that the Divine Son of God became FULLY human - possessing a human body & a human soul. Upon Jesus' Death, His body & soul parted but the 2 reunited at His Resurrection & forever will be.
Over to you :)
Let get into the beliefs of the Christians - JONATHAN_SAAD - 04-28-2007
listen to hope faith and the name after that lol
sorry just trying the reply thingy
and y do u question our faith?
Let get into the beliefs of the Christians - wel_mel_2 - 04-30-2007
Quote:In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit - One God - now & forever. Amen.
May the peace of Christ be with you!
Wael, please come back to planet earth, bro! I demand a recount :P
What happens when we die? (could you please answer that from an Islamic perspective? - thanks :thumb:)
Christians believe that the human soul is immortal. When we die, the soul separates from the body. The body is then lifeless. The soul enters into the afterlife.
The Incarnation means that the Divine Son of God became FULLY human - possessing a human body & a human soul. Upon Jesus' Death, His body & soul parted but the 2 reunited at His Resurrection & forever will be.
Over to you :)
So this is what I said… Jesus (body and
soul) +
his father (spirit only) +
the Holy Ghost (spirit “probably”) are (according to you) One God.
No need to count again.
Now you always say that when Jesus died, it was not his spirit that dies but his body only, so they are 2
separate things, but when we count them as 2, you are trying to convince me that they are only one.
Anyway, my intention was not to debate this subject, this was only my own “<i>unearthly</i>” observation. :D
Have fun FHC.
Salam
Wael.
Let get into the beliefs of the Christians - wel_mel_2 - 04-30-2007
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
Quote:listen to hope faith and the name after that lol
Am i not listening to her?
Quote:sorry just trying the reply thingy
and why dont you?
Quote:and y do u question our faith?
I did not question your faith, i was presenting my view point.
Salam
Wael.
Let get into the beliefs of the Christians - Faith Hope Charity - 05-07-2007
Glory to God, peace on earth, good will to all!
Assalamu alaikum, Al-fateh!
I apologize for the delay. I'm not too sure why you posted this but I'm guessing it's not because you're seeking knowledge or understanding on Christianity. If your intention was to get me to question my beliefs or doubt truths pertaining to The Faith, it was a complete waste of time. I'll provide quick & basic responses to your theories but if you're interested in further information regarding any points I make, please let me know & I'll be happy to elaborate.
Why is it so difficult for the Muslims to believe that Christ was crucified to erase our sins? Why do they reject the idea of the Crucifixion altogether?.
There is nothing strange about the Muslims rejecting this idea, because the Qur’aan in which they believe and accept what it tells them definitively states that that did not happen
Agreed! & I can't ask you to go against your sacred text. Please don't ask me to go against mine.
Rather the problem rests with the Christians for whom the doctrine of the crucifixion and redemption has become a central issue, so much so that the cross is the symbol of their religion.
There's no problem.
It is strange that they differ concerning the form of this cross which indicates their confusion about this fabrication.
There's no confusion on my part. There's certainly no fabrication.
There are differences between their Gospels and their historians regarding everything that has to do with the story of the crucifixion.
The Bible is inerrant. Error arises when certain people attempt to interpret the Sacred Scripture with a hidden agenda. Please approach the Injil with humility. It's a precious revelation from Allah (SWT) as you already know.
They differ concerning the timing of the Last Supper, which according to them was one of the events in the lead-up to the crucifixion. They differ concerning the traitor who led (the Romans) to Christ – did that happen at least one day before the Last Supper, as narrated by Luke, or during it, after Christ gave him the piece of bread, as narrated by John?
The Last Supper isn't mentioned in St John's Gospel. If you're referring to the feast of Passover, it lasted 7 days.
Judas is the traitor that betrayed Jesus in all 4 Gospels.
Was Christ the one who carried his cross, as John says, as was customary with one who was going to be crucified, according to Nottingham, or was it Simon of Cyrene, as the other three Gospels state?
They both carried it! Simon of Cyrene was a passer-by who helped Jesus carry His Cross. The Holy Bible is not the Quran. We interpret Sacred Scripture using various senses (literal, spiritual: allegorical, moral, anagogical). In an anagogical sense, we are Simon of Cyrene who must carry the Christ on our path of Redemption & participate in the work of Christ. St John places us at the foot of the Cross (the beloved disciple) alongside Mother Mary.
They say that two thieves were crucified alongside Christ, one on his right and one on his left, so what was the attitude of these two towards the Messiah who was being crucified, as they claim?
Did the thieves scorn him for being crucified, and say that his Lord had abandoned him and left him to his enemies? Or did only one of them scorn him, and did the other rebuke the one who scorned him?
Both reviled Christ. Then one of them repented. He's known as the "good thief". There's a reason why we have 4 Gospel's & not 1. Although there are apparent contradictions, they're actually complementary. Each Gospel is unique & speaks to us in different ways. Combined, they reveal the complete picture.
At what hour did this crucifixion take place – was it in the third hour, as Mark says, or in the sixth as John says?
St John wrote his Gospel decades after the Synoptics. He uses the Roman system (similar to ours today) whereas St Mark uses the Hebrew system (sunset to sunrise).
What happened after the so-called crucifixion?
Mark says that the veil of the Temple was torn from top to bottom. Matthew adds that the earth shook and rocks crumbled, and many of the saints rose from their graves and entered the holy city, appearing to many. Luke says that the sun turned dark, and the veil of the Temple was torn in the middle, and when the centurion saw what had happened, he glorified God and said, “Truly this man was righteous.”
But John does not know anything about all that!
All those things occurred. I assure you St John knew about them. He doesn't mention the Last Supper either but you can bet he was there. Each instrumental author places a different emphasis on the Life/Mission of Our Lord & appeal to particular communities.
These are not the only weak elements and indications of falseness in the story of the crucifixion, as narrated in the gospels. Rather the one who studies the details of the gospel narratives of this story will, with the least effort, notice the great differences in the details of this story, which are such that it is impossible to believe it all or even any part of it!
I pity those fools!
How desperate are the failed attempts to fill this gap and conceal the faults of this distorted book.
How desperate are the failed attempts to find errors & hopelessly present faults in a perfect & flawless book!
Apart from the fact that the gospel accounts are not sound, and their authors themselves admit that they were not revealed to the Messiah in this form, nor were they even written during his lifetime, none of the witnesses were present at the events to which they testify, as Mark says:
“Then everyone deserted him and fled.”
Mark 14:50 – New International Version (NIV)
Ask yourself what the deeper meaning behind this text is. St John 16:32 has Jesus Christ predicting that His friends will abandon Him into the hands of His enemies. Oh, what fragile faith! His disciples' faith couldn't stand the test of difficulties & opposition. I can see many Christens today in that situation. There's a very important message being portrayed in that scene. I can't believe you missed it.
By the way, St Mark goes on to mention that St Peter followed Jesus at a distance.
Because these events were not witnessed by anyone who narrated them, there is a great deal of room for imagination and poetic licence.
I like to think of it as Oral Tradition. St John & St Matthew were 2 of the 12 Apostles. St Mark was a disciple of St Peter & St Luke was a disciple of St Paul. Our sources are trustworthy. St Luke makes this clear in the opening verses of his Gospel... St Lk 1:1-4 "Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things which have been accomplished among us, just as they were delivered to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word, it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent The-oph'ilus, that you may know the truth concerning the things of which you have been informed."
We will complete our discussion of the fable of the crucifixion of Christ (peace be upon him) by looking at what the Gospels say about the Messiah’s prediction that he would be saved from death:
When you say "saved from death" do you mean "overcoming death" or "destroying death"? If so, then I'd totally agree with you. Jesus Christ didn't endure an eternal human death. I guess you could say He was "saved" by His Resurrection. As a Muslim, you deny Christ's Death because the Quran tells you to, however, if the Quran stated the opposite, you & I wouldn't be having this conversation. The Islamic puzzle is incomplete. How can you guys believe that "Prophet Isa" is a Man who was "taken away" whilst still being alive? Where do you say He is? What is He doing? Is He aging? Will He return as a 33 year old man? The missing pieces of the puzzle are His Death & Resurrection. I'm aware that the Quran dictates ideas to its adherents but does that automatically restrict you from asking questions or thinking for yourselves?
On one occasion the Pharisees and chief priests sent the guards to arrest him and he said to them:
“I am with you for only a short time, and then I go to the one who sent me. You will look for me, but you will not find me, and where I am, you cannot come.”
John 7:33-34 – NIV
Elsewhere he says:
“Once more Jesus said to them, ‘I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.’
This made the Jews ask, ‘Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, “Where I go, you cannot come”?’
But he continued, ‘You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.’
‘Who are you?’ they asked.
‘Just what I have been claiming all along,’ Jesus replied. ‘I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.’
They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father.
So Jesus said, ‘When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.’”
John 8:21-29 – NIV
Then at the end he tells them again:
“For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'”
Matthew 23:39 – NIV, also Luke 13:35
The Messiah, as these texts and others show, was certain that God would never hand him over to his enemies, and would never forsake him.
“But a time is coming, and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.
I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”
John 16:32-33
Because of that the passers by, and indeed everyone who attended the so-called crucifixion, mocked the Messiah, as the writer of this Gospel says (although that could not have been true):
“Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads
and saying, ‘You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!’
In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him.
‘He saved others,’ they said, ‘but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him.
He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, “I am the Son of God.”’
In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.”
Matthew 27:39-44 – NIV
But it seems that Jesus’ certainty that God was with him began to waver, according to the distorted Gospel narrative, (although that could not have been true):
“Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, ‘Sit here while I go over there and pray.’
He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.
Then he said to them, ‘My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.’
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.’
Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping.
…
He went away a second time and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.’
When he came back, he again found them sleeping, …
So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.
Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, ‘Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners’”
Matthew 26:36-45 – NIV
Luke describes the scene and says:
“And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.
When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow.
‘Why are you sleeping?’ he asked them. ‘Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation.’”
Luke 22:44-46 – NIV
Because of this mockery of the message of Christ – according to their claims – and because Christ thought that God was with him and would never forsake him, then it follows that the writer who fabricated this dramatic scene would end it with a vision of the despair of the Messiah and his feelings of being abandoned by God – exalted be Allaah far above what the wrongdoers say. The fabricator says:
“From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land.
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?’--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Matthew 27:38-47 – NIV
See also Mark 15:34
If we understand what this story means when subjected to criticism, the same will apply to the doctrine of redemption and sacrifice that is based on it.
Did I miss something? The breathtaking verses cited above undoubtedly point to Christ's Passion, Death, Resurrection & Ascension. Where are these bible-bashers coming from? If Wael's any indication to go by then I can only assume that our interpretations differ. Could you please explain it to me in your own words so I can help clear up any misunderstandings? I fail to see how the Death of Christ is just a "fable", especially based on the selected verses. Either I'm confused or your friends are.
With regard to the Christian doctrine of salvation, see also question no. 6
These folks have a lot of time on their hands. Does the site also contain a section on Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Atheism, etc... or like Satan, is it only infatuated with The True Faith?
And Allaah is the Source of strength and the guide to the Straight Path, and there is no Lord but He.
Amen! I'm glad we could end on a positive note.
Islam Q&A
Then perhaps they should stick to Islam.
God bless.
Let get into the beliefs of the Christians - Faith Hope Charity - 05-07-2007
Quote:So this is what I said… Jesus (body and
soul) +
his father (spirit only) +
the Holy Ghost (spirit “probably”) are (according to you) One God.
No need to count again.
:banghead:
I'm starting to think you have a severe case of memory loss, bro - haha!
God is: Father Son Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ, the Son of God Incarnate, is a Divine Person who assumed a human nature (body+soul). He isn't 2 people.
Quote:Now you always say that when Jesus died, it was not his spirit that dies but his body only, so they are 2
separate things, but when we count them as 2, you are trying to convince me that they are only one.
Jesus died in His humanity. I don't know about Islam but in Christianity the soul is the principle of life that animates the flesh. Therefore, upon death, the soul parts from the body & in our case we cease to be 'persons'. The term 'Person' actually originates from Catholic Theology so I wouldn't be surprised if you have no clue what I'm talking about right now. Anyways, in Christ's case it's different because He's not a 'human person', He's a 'Divine Person' with 2 natures: human & divine. While His Body & Soul were separarted, His 'Person' remained united to each individually.
I'll do it for you :conf06: :huh:
Quote:Anyway, my intention was not to debate this subject, this was only my own “<i>unearthly</i>” observation. :D
Your intention is always to debate :lol: My intention is to always have the last word ;) Especially when I'm dealing with aliens :P
Quote:Have fun FHC.
I'm having the time of my life, Alhamdulilah :) You have fun too, Wael!
God bless.