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John 1 - Muslimah - 07-31-2009
Bismillah
as salam alykom
let me give my humble opinion in a very simplified manner.
According to Kate's explanation:
You can't separate the two. He's One Persen,
And Steve made a comment about dying and that we dont die, we only move into the hereafter.
Well, human's are created with a knowledge that they will die, dying is the elimination of one's body, and the movement of the soul to a place awaiting the resurrectution. Resurrection is intended to be for putting us accountable and stand judgement.
All of this cannt apply on a divine entity, yes God can do everthing, and because of this particular point, it totally defies divine being and nature to die, eliminate, even for a slight momnet. It is totally against the divine majesty.
Now FHC says both God and Jesus are one person, and even without putting it this way, being part of God, having God's characteristic makes it totally illogical to say that he died on the cross, and yet worship him as God. I m aware that you believe that he concurred death by rising up to the skies to sit next to his father.
But well, if he is part of God, this makes him in charge of certain godly duties, who performed them during this fraction of a moment (i know it was not, just trying to clarify matters) when he was dead. Was it the father, the holy spirit? This makes him not possessing godly nature. One of the most important characteristic of a God is the super nature, not needing to rest, not sleeping, because all things are in his hands, he is handling them minute by minute in every place.
How would this fit into a godly nature???????
John 1 - Steve Consilvio - 07-31-2009
Quote:It is totally against the divine majesty.
....
How would this fit into a godly nature???????
Again, it is not our place to define God, his job, or apply our meager standards of logic and knowledge. Our place is to love, understand and trust God's wisdom.
Was it 'Godly Nature' for Him to make an old man like Abraham a father, and then ask that the child be sacrificed? God is trying to teach us something, and by dwelling on certain particulars, it is very easy to miss the big picture.
Consider the rebuke that Jesus gives to the church elders, who spent all their time discussing such things:
Quote:23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
Religion is not an automobile of mechanical parts, it is about the Spirit. Trust the Spirit, not reason. Do not get too caught up in the importance of rituals, without being in communion with the Word.
This discussion, regrettably, is not about the Word of God. It is suggested that the Counselor (the Holy Spirit) does not even exist. What I find most interesting, however, is how closely the reasoning here is to the reasoning that atheists claim.
Of course, there was a time when I applied my expectations to God, too. I wanted Him to be something that I could understand. Once you accept that you will never fully understand God, then you will understand Him better. Kind of like Socrates, you become wise (in comparison to your peers) only when you realize that you are not wise. The surety of self-righteousness is a double-edged sword, for if we have expectations of God and others, then we must meet those expectations ourselves. The Spirit gives us insight into our own double-standards (grace). It is not God whom we should be questioning, but our own beliefs. It is the errors in what we believe that separates us from God and one another.
John 1 - Faith Hope Charity - 07-31-2009
May the peace of our Lord, Jesus Christ, be with you!
Quote:All of this cannt apply on a divine entity, yes God can do everthing, and because of this particular point, it totally defies divine being and nature to die, eliminate, even for a slight momnet. It is totally against the divine majesty.
I agree. Without a human nature, the Son of God could not have died.
Quote:Now FHC says both God and Jesus are one person,
In fact, I said the total opposite. God is not Jesus. God is Father, Son & Holy Spirit. Each Person completely possesses the SAME divine nature, which is why it is fitting to say: the Father is God, the Son (Jesus Christ) is God, & the Holy Spirit is God. Not 3 different gods, but 3 Persons in the One True God.
Quote:But well, if he is part of God, this makes him in charge of certain godly duties, who performed them during this fraction of a moment (i know it was not, just trying to clarify matters) when he was dead. Was it the father, the holy spirit? This makes him not possessing godly nature.
God is omnipresent. The Son of God does not need to be restricted in space or time. The Son is very much united with the Father & the Holy Spirit before, during & after the Incarnation.
Quote:One of the most important characteristic of a God is the super nature, not needing to rest, not sleeping, because all things are in his hands, he is handling them minute by minute in every place.
How would this fit into a godly nature???????
Why would God send His only Son into the world & subject Him to the lowliness of humanity for the sake that we might be cured of our sickness, become reconciled to God, & have a share in His Heavenly Kingdom?
<b>Because God is Love. </b>
John 1 - Steve Consilvio - 07-31-2009
I just wanted to add one more thing:
Jesus taught to turn the other cheek.
His death was an example of this belief.
He had more than enough power to protect himself. He wanted to set an example of self-restraint.
In focusing on the molecules of his flesh, and our 'rational' understanding of life and death, you miss the point.
Kinda like the disputes between claimants of various scripture (Torah, Bible, Koran.) They are just words on paper. It is the meaning of the words that is important. The message, not the paper. The meaning of the event, not the details.
For example, the 9/11 commission studied everything about the attacks of 9/11, but not the motive. Why not the motive? Because all roads lead back to the same conclusion: we are sinners, and treat our brothers badly. It is easier to assign blame than to accept responsibility. It is easier to silence the messenger than to embrace the message. It is also easier to claim virtue by association than to actually be virtuous.
Jesus is an example of virtue, which no man will ever duplicate. If you think you are better than Jesus, or even equal to Jesus (which religious leaders sometimes/often fall prey to) then you missed yet another message of Jesus. Jesus, like a prince, was King, but he too has a King, his father. The trinity should not be all that confusing a concept. We can be a father and son simultaneously, or a daughter and a mother simultaneously. We are invited to be part of the family, but we come to the family only through our spiritual maturity.
When I am separated from my family (at work, shopping, etc,) I am still part of the family. Just because my body is separate from my spirit, it matters little. Jesus was trying to teach precisely that: that we worry about the things that are unimportant, and fail to take account of the things that are important.
John 1 - Muslimah - 08-01-2009
Quote:Bismillah
According to Kate's explanation:
<b>You can't separate the two. He's One Persen,</b>
Kate those are your words, I simply quoted u.
Steve. yes our human reasoning certainly is unfit to realise the Majesty of God, however, God Gave us enough reasoning to know that He Is incomparable, Eternal, Alive ..etc. Simply having part of God, God incarnate,.whatever you call it dies totally defied the divine nature. AS simple as this. Becuase dying, in part, means stopping to function, to assume duties..etc. How can a god stop functioning for a fraction of a second?
John 1 - Steve Consilvio - 08-01-2009
Quote:How can a god stop functioning for a fraction of a second?
I don't think He does. That is a question that you created.
You need to answer it to your satisfaction, but only you (with God's help) can do that.
I suppose for all of us, the point where faith and reason intersect is slightly different.
For me, this point does not trouble me, for you, it does.
Ask God, and see what He says.
Quote:Matthew 7
7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
9"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
John 1 - Faith Hope Charity - 08-02-2009
Assalamu alaikum, Muslimah!
Quote:Kate those are your words, I simply quoted u.
The two natures (divine & human) are perfectly united & cannot be separated in the 2nd Person of the Most Holy Trinity after the Incarnation.
Thanks & God bless.
John 1 - wel_mel_2 - 08-03-2009
Quote:Assalamu alaikum, Muslimah!
The two natures (divine & human) are perfectly united & cannot be separated in the 2nd Person of the Most Holy Trinity after the Incarnation.
Thanks & God bless.
And so to conclude this topic, i would say that Jesus did not simply die as human being, but also as fully divine/God.
Salam
Wael.
John 1 - Faith Hope Charity - 08-03-2009
Peace, love & grace be with you!
Quote:And so to conclude this topic, i would say that Jesus did not simply die as human being, but also as fully divine/God.
Allelulia! God loves me & gave Himself for me. If I did not believe this truth then I would have no reason to get out of bed in the morning.
God bless you, Wael.
John 1 - wel_mel_2 - 08-03-2009
Quote:Peace, love & grace be with you!
Allelulia! God loves me & gave Himself for me. If I did not believe this truth then I would have no reason to get out of bed in the morning.
God bless you, Wael.
Ok, I did <i>not</i> really understand what you mean by that! Is it a confirmation to my understanding? that (<i>according to you</i>) Jesus died as a complete person, <b>human and God at the same time</b>?
Salam
Wael.