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Wife Punishment - reepicheep - 12-01-2010
The question we are discussing is whether muslim husbands are permitted, under Islamic Law, to beat and rape their wives. We are NOT discussing whether Mohammad beat and raped his wives.
To summarize the opinions so far:
the scholar in the video wrote:
> The honoring of the wife in islam is also evident in the
> fact that the punishment of beatings is permissible in
> one case only: when she refuses to sleep with him. He
> should begin with admonishments and threats."
Wel_Mel_2 wrote:
> I have seen the video, and I really could not find
> anything taboo about it!
Muslimah wrote:
> I'm not qualified to judge scholars
So, the scholar and Wel_mel_2 clearly believe that there is nothing wrong with a muslim man beating and raping his wife, if she does not wish to have sex with him.
You seem to be contradicting yourself, Muslimah. On the one hand, you refuse to say that the scholar and Wel_Mel_2 are wrong. On the other hand, you seem to be arguing that, since Mohammad wasn't a wife beating rapist, it is clearly wrong for muslims like Wel_Mel_2 to be wife beating rapists.
So, which is it, Muslimah? Do you think Wel_Mel_2 and the scholar are right, or wrong, when they argue in favour of wife beating and rape???
Wife Punishment - Muslimah - 12-03-2010
Bismillah
Praise be to Allah, The Merciful, The Compassionate, Most Cordial, and blessings and peace be upon our mentor, teacher, leader and final Messenger Mohammmad Bin Abdullah.
May Allah expand my chest, facilitate my affairs, and untie a knot of my tongue so that they may understand my saying,
In order to cover this issue properly, may Allah Assist me much in this endeavor, we need first to introduce a simple relevant definition of Allah.
Allah, as you may know by now, Has multiple Names and Attributes, some of them we know because they are included in Quran, others we do not. Through those Names and Attributes, the whole creation, I reiterate, the whole creation, i.e mankind (regardless of their belief orientation, animals, cosmos, water creatures, mountains, plants..etc, function, and live of course this cover regulating interrelations. When I say interrelations, I m not only speaking about human/human, no, but for example human/animal, human/plant, human /earth, human/ inanimate bodies..etc.
Allah Opens each and every Surah in Quran using His Two Attributes, ArRahman, ArRaheem. The Merciful, The Compassionate. This is not haphazard. Also in many positions in Quran, when the Ayah is warning against Allah’s punishment, it is usually followed by a reminder of Allah’s Gentleness and Forgiveness in other positions Allah Chose to start by reminding us of His Forgiveness, then warn us against His torture.
Such as:
“Declare (O Muhammad) unto My slaves, that truly, I am the Oft-Forgiving, the Most-Merciful.* And that My Torment is indeed the most painful torment.” (Quran 15:49-50).
Translator’s remark: I would use inform or notify rather than declare.
And:
“And there is no sin on you if you make a hint of betrothal or conceal it in yourself, Allah knows that you will remember them, but do not make a promise of contract with them in secret except that you speak an honourable saying according to the Islamic law (e.g. you can say to her, "If one finds a wife like you, he will be happy"). And do not consummate the marriage until the term prescribed is fulfilled. And know that Allah knows what is in your minds, so fear Him. And know that Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Forbearing.” (2:235)
And:
“On the Day when every person will be confronted with all the good he has done, and all the evil he has done, he will wish that there were a great distance between him and his evil. And Allah warns you against Himself (His Punishment) and Allah is full of Kindness to the (His) slaves.” (3:30)
I do not want to flood the post with excessive Ayahs, those just examples to many other similar occurrences of how Allah repeatedly explained to us about Himself in order to realise and take heed. In addition, to constantly observe those facts and strictly keep them in mind all the time when we proceed in this life.
Coming to marital relation, how did Allah describe the type of relation that is supposed to prevail between spouses:
Allah Say:
“And among His Signs is this, that He created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find repose in them, and He has put between you affection and mercy. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect.” (30:21)
However, I stood for a long time pondering upon the Arabic word which is translated here as affection. Matter of fact, this word (Mawadah) is derived from Allah’s Attribute Al Wadood, Al Wadood is the exaggerated adjective of Wud. What is Wud?? Is it only affection? No it goes far beyond this. It encompasses meanings of cordiality, friendliness, affection, constant closeness, sustainable communication, care, and deep emotions. I tried my best to convey this important meaning. Having said that, it becomes clear now that the principle ground of any marital relation should be as hereinabove mentioned. The daily interaction between both spouses should be based on Mawadah and mercy. However, everything has exceptions. Let us take for example penal codes in any given country, they are enacted in order to deal with exception cases of the society, as being a murderer is not the norm, neither being a thief….etc. Those exceptional cases need to be curbed, how? Through the penal code and similar instruments.
Back to our topic, when I brought the case of the Messenger blessing and peace be upon him, this was because he is our role model and we are commanded to follow him.
But not all men are the Messenger neither all women are his blessed wives.
If he did never beat a wife or domestic servant, this does not mean that Quran is wrong. Because when I posted the question, I then grew concerned that you might take it this way. But you took it in a different way. I can see where you are heading. But I will still reply, as you know me by now, many might come to this site and read and benefit.
The Messenger blessing and peace be upon him, discouraged men from practicing beating. This means that the ruling is available, but men should use it under very limited conditions. Just as the State enforcing death penalty/capital punishment, only when necessary and after exhausting all means to save the criminal’s life for example.
Other relevant hadith in this regard:
The Messenger blessing and peace be upon him said: “Those who are best among you, do not beat”
The Messenger blessing and peace be upon him said: “One who treats women graciously is gracious, and one who humiliates them is mean”.
According to those hadith, you can clearly see how did the Messenger blessing and peace be upon him encouraged men to treat their wives. In this respect, he was truly a role model, he played with them, helped with domestic chores, entertained them, loved them..etc. And was firm as the situation requires.
But before he asks her to obey and maintain piety, he has to fulfill his obligations towards her starting from giving proper dowry, covering all her necessary expenses, fulfilling her physical needs. By the way, there is an Ayah that actually very eloquently describe how a man should approach his wife and how he must be compassionate and not force himself on her.
Actually, personally I do not agree with the scholar’s interpretation that beating is only restricted on situations when a woman denies her husband his right. Because the adjective Nushooz which is literally being odd, covers those who act against Islamic teachings in terms of marital life. Women has a major role to play in the household. Thus, if the woman, who is concurrently, mother, ignores her duties, proper teachings, she needs to be disciplined. How to discipline is introduced in this Ayah, first state is admonishion, second to desert her in bed because when a man refuses to have the intimate relation with the wife, this is deeply hurting, then if all this does not work, beating comes in order to sort of shake her and wake her up.
However, I reiterate, it should be last resort and if the man practices patience, he will be actually rewarded more.
Then we can sum up as follows:
The ruling is there in order to address potential marital problems.
Man before asking for his rights, should first fulfill his obligations.
Man is always encouraged to kindly and softly treat women.
Women are encouraged to abide by Islamic teachings regarding marital relations.
Women should always observe Allah’s limits and remember that she enters the relation in the name of Allah.
Man should only resort to beating under pressing needs and difficult circumstances.
By the way, if a man beats his wife without reason, she is not going to be at fault (in the Eyes of Allah) if she refused to have sexual intercourse.
Wife Punishment - reepicheep - 12-03-2010
Muslimah, here in Canada muslim men do NOT have the legal right to beat and rape their wives.
Do you think that Canadians are right, or wrong, when we refuse to grant muslim men the right to beat and rape their wives? Is Allah pleased, or displeased, with Canadians because we refuse to legalize spousal abuse and rape?
Wife Punishment - AlShamms - 12-05-2010
Good morning all, sorry about my silence, sometimes all the obligations of life keeps one busy. On to the topic:
Ok, to comment on Muslimah's summary:
Wife beating is available to those muslim men who first fulfill their obligations in terms of providing for the wife.
Wife beating should be done not just in instances of sexual dissatisfaction, but in areas of other discipline where the wife is lacking.
Wife beating should only be done as a last resort.
I looked up the english translation of Surah 4:34 which is entitled "An-Nissa" or The Women translation by Yusuf Ali and Pickthall:
(Ali)
“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).”
NOTE: The words in parenthesis are not in the original arabic language
(Pickthall)
“Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.”
I notice something interesting in the verse. That permission is granted for this form of punishment not on any actual wrong doing of the woman, but on fear on the part of the man:
"As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct"
and
"As for those from whom ye fear rebellion"
this seems to me a preventative measure, not necessarily a corrective one.
Now, as far as the "rape" which Reepi mentioned, I looked up Surah 2:223 which is entitled "Al-Baqarah" or The Cow:
(Ali)
"Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear God. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe."
(Pickthall)
"Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad)."
Question: Isn't the word translated by Ali as "wives" in surah 2:223 the word "nissa" which means women? Isn't this verse giving men permission to approach the women they possess (wives, slaves, sisters, mothers) when and how they see fit?
Wife Punishment - wel_mel_2 - 12-06-2010
Quote:Muslimah, here in Canada muslim men do NOT have the legal right to beat and rape their wives.Let us be more clear and specific in using terminologies here:
Do you think that Canadians are right, or wrong, when we refuse to grant muslim men the right to beat and rape their wives? Is Allah pleased, or displeased, with Canadians because we refuse to legalize spousal abuse and rape?
BEAT according to Oxford Dictionary Seventh Edition 1984:
“Strike repeatedly or persistently, esp. to harm or punish; dash or strike repeatedly against; deliver rhythmic blows on (drum etc); remove dust from (carpet etc) by beating; overcome, surpass, win victory over, perplex, be too hard for; fashion or shape, move or shift, by blows; knock loudly at door etc; stir (egg etc) vigorously into frothy mixture; (of bird) move (wings) up and down, (of wings) move thus; mark or follow (time in music) with rhythmic movement,
tapping
, etc make (path) -------->
So in Islam, TAPPING is allowed to warn your NASHEZ wives against their disloyally and disobedience. The Arabic word WADREBOHONNA mean to tap them as a method of saving the marriage bond, and in tapping one should NOT leave any marks on their bodies AT ALL. “I wonder what kind of beating is that?”
Let’s now look at other words you have used:
RAPE: <Forcible sexual intercourse with woman without her freely given consent; violent assault or interference---------->
The above is not allowed in Islam based on the following narrations:
“There shall be no infliction of harm on oneself or others".
“Whoever causes harm to others subjects himself to harm caused by God.”
“You must refrain from dealing wickedly with others, for that would count as a benefaction you do to yourself”.
All these narrations condemned harming OTHERS, which includes one’s wife of course, then how can anyone FORCE his wife by beating her to sleep with him while he is commanded not to harm her? This is your own understanding and not the teaching of Islam. In Islam TAPPING is permitted, and not RAPE OR BEATING THAT LEAVES EVEN A MARK.
You also used the word ABUSE which means:
“make bad use of; maltreat, attack verbally, revile, offensive language------>
The above is not allowed in Islam as well. The Prophet said:
“The best of you is he who is best to his wives”
The prophet never abuses any of his wives and so we should follow his footsteps. And how can we be the best if we abused our loved ones?
So I hope this would end up the discussion on this thread.
Salam
Wael
Wife Punishment - Muslimah - 12-07-2010
Bismillah
as salam alykom Shamms,
You asked a very good question:
Isn't this verse giving men permission to approach the women they possess (wives, slaves, sisters, mothers) when and how they see fit?
In fact this Ayah instructs to totally the opposite demonstrating how Islam does not overlook the tiniest details. It is the Ayah regulating the intimate relation between spouses. It shows how Allah Tackled each and every aspect of our lives, special intimate relation but in a very modest and polite manner, avoiding obscene expressions,yet very clear and direct about how a man should approach his wife.
Allah Used nesaukum, which is translated as your women=your wives.
Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will
In Arabic, the Ayah says: anna shetum=as you please or as you wish. This Ayah had been revealed in an occaision when Al Ansaar (Medina people who vowed to support and accomodate the Messenger blessing and peace be upon him) came inquiring to the Messenger blessing and peace be upon him about the positions they may apply during the intimate relation. They asked him saying that Jews told them, if they approached their wives while laying on their sides, the potnetially conceived child would come with twised eye balls. Thus, the Messenger blessing and peace be upon him explained that they are allowed to enjoy their spouses on any position, provided they use the legitimate point (in Islam anus sex is illgitimate). That is why Allah referred to this point politely saying tilth. Tilth is an implication of sawing seed that would grow. Using the proper point is means to conceive children which is the main reason of marriage and forming families. The Ayah also teaches men how not to just throw themselves on women without any introduction or helping her to prepare. This is what the Ayah is about. It is one of the most delicate Ayahs that sets forth rulings on the intimate relation between spouses and yet maintaining modesty and polite wording in an incomparable manner.
but do some good act for your souls beforehand
This is the part of the Aya I am speaking about, with all due resepct to the translator, he did not cover all of it. In Arabic, it says: qademou le anfusikum. It means make introductions to yourselves. It has a double fold meaning. As I explained above. Prepare the women, make some introduction to yourself before you start the actual act, and also, pronounce the invocation taught by the Messenger blessing and peace be upon him in order to protect both you and your wife from interception of the devil.
In sha Allah I answered your question Shamms and Allah Knows best.