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The Qur'an On Trial - Whisper - 06-07-2003
Why don't you get on with it?
You said "my job will be: make you put your foot in your mouth."
Come On, you took me up on my offer and now you're ducking and diving and still have yet to answer the above and "my job will be: make you put your foot in your mouth.",
I will continue,
"No other book in the world can match the Qur'an ... The astonishing fact about this book of ALLAH is that it has remained unchanged, even to a dot, over the last fourteen hundred years. ... No variation of text can be found in it. You can check this for yourself by listening to the recitation of Muslims from different parts of the world. (Basic Principles of Islam, Abu Dhabi, UAE: The Zayed Bin Sultan Al Nahayan Charitable & Humanitarian Foundation, 1996, p. 4, bold added)"
The fact is that the Qur'an is thought to be perfect by Muslims.
The above claim is that all Qur'ans around the world are identical and that "no variation of text can be found". In fact the author issues a challenge saying, "You can check this for yourself by listening to the recitation of Muslims from different parts of the world". I take up this challenge to see if all Qur'ans are in fact identical.
I am going to start by comparing two Qur'ans first and then the rest.
The first Qur'an is the most commonly used Qur'an and is according to the Hafs' transmission. The second Qur'an is according to the Warsh' transmission and is mainly used in North Africa.
Remember, this is just the start.
When you compare these Qur'ans, it becomes obvious that they are not identical. There are three main types of differences between them.
Graphical/Basic letter differences
Diacritical differences
Vowel differences
There are differences between the basic printed letters of these two Qur'ans. It was these letters that Uthman standardized in his recension of the Qur'an.
THE QUR'AN ACCORDING TO THE TRANSMISSION OF IMAM HAFS AND SECOND, IMAM WARSH
IMAM HAFS surah 2:132 (wawassaa)
IMAM WARSH surah 2:131 (wa'awsaa)
IMAM HAFS surah 91:15 (wa laa yakhaafu)
IMAM WARSH surah 91:15 (fa laa yakhaafu)
THIS IS A STARTER, I WILL POST PICTURE LATER ON,
Unchanged - all Qurans identical?
The below pictures in reference to
IMAM HAFS surah 2:132 (wawassaa)
IMAM WARSH surah 2:131 (wa'awsaa)
[img:bb85b604f8]http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven/hafs_1.gif[/img:bb85b604f8]
[img:bb85b604f8]http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven/warsh_1.gif[/img:bb85b604f8]
The below pictures in reference to
IMAM HAFS surah 91:15 (wa laa yakhaafu)
IMAM WARSH surah 91:15 (fa laa yakhaafu)
[img:bb85b604f8]http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven/hafs_11.gif[/img:bb85b604f8]
[img:bb85b604f8]http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven/warsh_11.gif[/img:bb85b604f8]
The above examples show that there are differences between the basic letters of these two Qur'ans.
DIACRITICAL DIFFERENCES - Arabic uses dots to distinguish between certain letters that are written the same way. For instance the basic symbol represents five different letters in the Arabic language depending upon where the diacritical dots are placed. For the above example, the five letters with their diacritical dots are as follows: baa', taa', thaa', nuun, yaa'. However these dots were a later development of the Arabic script and were not in use when Uthman standardized the text of the Qur'an. Thus the Uthman' Qur'an did not have any dots to record the exact letter and pronunciation. The text could be read in several ways and was in this way ambiguous in places. It served as a guide for the different Readers of the Qur'an, but not as a complete guide because the diacritical dots were not yet in use. The two Qur'ans that we are examining come from two different Readers and so have two different oral traditions. These traditions have their own unique system of where the dots (and vowels) should go. Here we see another difference between these two Qur'ans for they do not have the dots in the same place. We see that for the same word these two Qur'ans have the dots in different positions thus making different letters. (Remember that verse/aya numbering differs between these two Qur'ans.)
The Qur'an On Trial - Purgetory - 06-07-2003
Quote: Muslims believe that the Quran was written directly by Allah, given to the angel Gabriel, and handed down to Muhammad. Thus, it is perfect in its original language, and in fact, cannot even be translated properly by any human - but must be read in Arabic (Suras 12:2; 13:37; 41:41,44). Unfortunately, this makes the Quran unreadable by approximately 800 million Muslims.[/quote:d3dc8f17fa]</div></blockquote>
There are several good translations in any language, yet non the less, its common sense that a translation cannot be exactly the same as the original language in which any book has been written. Considering it a book of God, every specific word has been chosen for a reason. You see my friend, in Arabic, there are several words that have the same meaning, yet still each one gives a different feeling, a different…pulse….pressure, if I may say, its hard to explain realy…its like describing the color blue to a blind man.
Yet that doesn’t mean the English translation is a complete non-sense compared to the Arabic original, its just not the same. Non the less, its not THAT bad, not realy a subject to be very concerned with.
<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="304" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> The Quran contains grammatical errors (Suras 2:177,192; 3:59; 4:162; 5:69; 7:160; 13:28; 20:66; 63:10...) In fact, more than 100 aberrations from the Arabic language have been noted by Arabic scholars.[/quote:d3dc8f17fa]Now why don’t you tell me how I can reply to that to a man that doesn’t know Arabic. I can post the verses in Arabic for you, yet could you read them? This point is useless, it doesn’t mark anything on your side because you don’t know that this is true for sure. Did you see thoughs errors yourself? Can you name the scholars and show us where on the web did they say that?
<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="304" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> The Quran uses words foreign to the Arabic language. These include Egyptian, Hebrew, Greek, Ethiopian, Persian...over 100 in all. This also shows the manner in which Muhammad borrowed stories from merchants as they passed through Mecca.[/quote:d3dc8f17fa]You have given us verses of other points, yet of all of them, this is the one which can be truly seen if true or not by quoteing from the Qoran…and I see no quote. Doesn’t this tell you something?
<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="304" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> There is absolutely no doubt among western and Arabic scholars that many variant readings exist for the Quran (over 140 for just one sura!). Now, that in itself should not be important, except we must remember that Muslim doctrine states that the Quran is perfect and that it exists in only one form - that which was handed down to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel.[/quote:d3dc8f17fa]I don’t know what exactly your talking about, yet I know for sure, in reading the Qoran, I have heard different tones given. If you ever hear the Qoran being read, you will notice some kind of music which the reciter does of his own. Nothing vitial for reading, only desirable for some people. These tones could defer, and could not exist sometimes, depends on the guy reciting.
Do you think this is realy that important? The Book still holds its words.
<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="304" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> Uthman's standardized version of the Quran (the one currently accepted by Islam) has verses missing (over 120 verses from just one sura!). This fact is universally recognized. The Quran has gone through an "editing" process since the time of the original collection of documents. Uthman's standard version is in itself proof of the malleability of the Quran...what need is there for a standardized text if no variations exist? Verses have been removed, added, changed...interestingly the Muslim excuse is that Allah may "change his mind" on certain teachings. Is this not the way of all false religions?[/quote:d3dc8f17fa]
Excuse? Excuse for what? This is the first time I ever heard of such a thing! Realy strange what you guys could come up with.
I have said this before. How can you edit a book that have been memorized in our minds for centuries. How can you change a book engraved in the mental world? You cant even remove a letter, not to mention verses! In life, there are three generations. The granddad, father, and son. If the son is memoriseing edited Qoran, believe it or not, his father or grandfather will notice and right the wrong.
<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="304" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>There is no such thing as an "original" Quran. The fact is that Muhammad spoke the contents of the Quran during his fits or when something needed to be done. Sometimes those words would be recorded, sometimes not. Often they were written on leaves or sticks. None of these original writings exist today. Period. The "heavenly language" of the Quran is, conveniently, not only in Muhammad's own tongue, but in the dialect of his own tribe! What are the odds?[/quote:d3dc8f17fa]
Yes, the Qoran was written back then on leaves, stick and bones and also memorized by heart. Until later it was compiled into a book. The Qoran is there now, the only thing I can answer you with is go read it and find out for yourself. How am I to prove to you that the Qoran is written in a type of Arabic never been used before. It is in a level of its own. Yet you wont believe me nor any one who tells you this. So realy, those comments your making simply don’t have any answer for you. Unless you trust us, the only answer you could find is by studying Arabic and checking for yourself. As for my part, I am telling you, the Qoran is in a level of its own when it comes to the style of Arabic it is written in. Cant say more can I?
<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="304" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> The eloquence of the Quran is merely a matter of opinion. It is a confused collection of jumbled suras, often wordy and in no particular order. It has been called "humiliating to the human intellect"..."mediocre literature"..."exceedingly incoherent"..."badly edited"... "obtusely arranged" (and these last two from a Muslim scholar!).[/quote:d3dc8f17fa]This is were the language doesn’t matter. Here is a link with English and Arabic Qoran. Click on any verse and scroll up to start reading from the beginning. Then come back and speak for your self and not through the mind of others whom you have taken this article off.
http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/qur...le/subject1.htm
You have not given any proofs again Whispers. All what you did was judge judge and judge. Any proofs from the Qoran would make your judgment more stable. You did give verses for a few things, which we cant reply to you about because they deal with the Arabic language which you are of ignorance in. non the less, you take what is said against Islam to heart without seconding it. Would you take what us arabs and muslims that read the Qoran at least once every year and memorise it to heart? We have more basis and can be trusted more than your sourse. We own copies of the Qoran and we read and memorise them. Did the author of your article do that? Who can you trust more? Yet I’m expecting from you not to trust us, which doesn’t matter realy.
The main thing is, try to prove your point after making them.
Why don’t you start with the hard ones, eh whisper?
![[Image: wink.gif]](http://www.islamsms.com/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif)
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The Qur'an On Trial - Whisper - 06-08-2003
Hey, stop screwing around, the fact is .i have already provided proof, I said that ONE mistake is enough to cast complete doubt on the Qur'an.
The Qur'an is supposed to be PERFECT, UNCHANGEABLE, ALL QUR'ANS IN THE WORLD (ARABIC) ARE IDENTICAL.
Now, you obviously need your eyes checked.
You, by what you have said are going against the Qur'an, Muslims accuse the Bible of being corrupt because there are different translations, however the Bible doesn't claim that God wrote the Bible,
The Qur'an does claim such and there are translations and there are differences,
The Qur'an is unique according to Muslims because it is actually from Allah and is perfect, how can this be when there are translations and differences as I have shown?
"There are several good translations in any language, yet non the less, its common sense that a translation cannot be exactly the same as the original language in which any book has been written. Considering it a book of God, every specific word has been chosen for a reason. You see my friend, in Arabic, there are several words that have the same meaning, yet still each one gives a different feeling, a different…pulse….pressure, if I may say, its hard to explain realy…its like describing the color blue to a blind man.
Yet that doesn’t mean the English translation is a complete non-sense compared to the Arabic original, its just not the same. Non the less, its not THAT bad, not realy a subject to be very concerned with."
You botched that one up!!!
The Qur'an On Trial - Whisper - 06-08-2003
Again.........
"No other book in the world can match the Qur'an ... The astonishing fact about this book of ALLAH is that it has remained unchanged, even to a dot, over the last fourteen hundred years. ... No variation of text can be found in it. You can check this for yourself by listening to the recitation of Muslims from different parts of the world. (Basic Principles of Islam, Abu Dhabi, UAE: The Zayed Bin Sultan Al Nahayan Charitable & Humanitarian Foundation, 1996, p. 4, bold added)"
The fact is that the Qur'an is thought to be perfect by Muslims.
The above claim is that all Qur'ans around the world are identical and that "no variation of text can be found". In fact the author issues a challenge saying, "You can check this for yourself by listening to the recitation of Muslims from different parts of the world". I take up this challenge to see if all Qur'ans are in fact identical.
I am going to start by comparing two Qur'ans first and then the rest.
The first Qur'an is the most commonly used Qur'an and is according to the Hafs' transmission. The second Qur'an is according to the Warsh' transmission and is mainly used in North Africa.
Remember, this is just the start.
When you compare these Qur'ans, it becomes obvious that they are not identical. There are three main types of differences between them.
Graphical/Basic letter differences
Diacritical differences
Vowel differences
There are differences between the basic printed letters of these two Qur'ans. It was these letters that Uthman standardized in his recension of the Qur'an.
THE QUR'AN ACCORDING TO THE TRANSMISSION OF IMAM HAFS AND SECOND, IMAM WARSH
IMAM HAFS surah 2:132 (wawassaa)
IMAM WARSH surah 2:131 (wa'awsaa)
IMAM HAFS surah 91:15 (wa laa yakhaafu)
IMAM WARSH surah 91:15 (fa laa yakhaafu)
THIS IS A STARTER, I WILL POST PICTURE LATER ON,
Unchanged - all Qurans identical?
The below pictures in reference to
IMAM HAFS surah 2:132 (wawassaa)
IMAM WARSH surah 2:131 (wa'awsaa)
[img:58bdb6b608]http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven/hafs_1.gif[/img:58bdb6b608]
[img:58bdb6b608]http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven/warsh_1.gif[/img:58bdb6b608]
The below pictures in reference to
IMAM HAFS surah 91:15 (wa laa yakhaafu)
IMAM WARSH surah 91:15 (fa laa yakhaafu)
[img:58bdb6b608]http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven/hafs_11.gif[/img:58bdb6b608]
[img:58bdb6b608]http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven/warsh_11.gif[/img:58bdb6b608]
The above examples show that there are differences between the basic letters of these two Qur'ans.
DIACRITICAL DIFFERENCES - Arabic uses dots to distinguish between certain letters that are written the same way. For instance the basic symbol represents five different letters in the Arabic language depending upon where the diacritical dots are placed. For the above example, the five letters with their diacritical dots are as follows: baa', taa', thaa', nuun, yaa'. However these dots were a later development of the Arabic script and were not in use when Uthman standardized the text of the Qur'an. Thus the Uthman' Qur'an did not have any dots to record the exact letter and pronunciation. The text could be read in several ways and was in this way ambiguous in places. It served as a guide for the different Readers of the Qur'an, but not as a complete guide because the diacritical dots were not yet in use. The two Qur'ans that we are examining come from two different Readers and so have two different oral traditions. These traditions have their own unique system of where the dots (and vowels) should go. Here we see another difference between these two Qur'ans for they do not have the dots in the same place. We see that for the same word these two Qur'ans have the dots in different positions thus making different letters. (Remember that verse/aya numbering differs between these two Qur'ans.)
The Qur'an On Trial - Purgetory - 06-08-2003
Quote:Hey, stop screwing around, the fact is .i have already provided proof, I said that ONE mistake is enough to cast complete doubt on the Qur'an.[/quote:fabc428247]Where? You only gave them where you spoke of the language used. Do you know arabic? how am I to show you that your judgment is flawed when you dont know arabic? How do you have the heart to judge about something you dont know anything off? You realy should think for your self and stop taking what others say for granted.</div></blockquote>
<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="304" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The Qur'an is supposed to be PERFECT, UNCHANGEABLE, ALL QUR'ANS IN THE WORLD (ARABIC) ARE IDENTICAL. Now, you obviously need your eyes checked.[/quote:fabc428247]
Oh, so you dont want an answer to you remarks. If I tell you I read the Qoran and I dont find any errors, you tell me I need my eyes checked. What do you want me to say? You want me to lie so that I will please you? there is only one way to find out the truth, make YOUR OWN research and read the Qoran yourself to find out!
<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="304" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>You, by what you have said are going against the Qur'an, Muslims accuse the Bible of being corrupt because there are different translations, however the Bible doesn't claim that God wrote the Bible, The Qur'an does claim such and there are translations and there are differences.[/quote:fabc428247]
Where did I say that muslims believe that the Bible was corrupt because of the translations? What I have said in other posts was that you missinterpert alot of your Bible.
try reading this article, http://www.islamsms.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=631
<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="304" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The Qur'an is unique according to Muslims because it is actually from Allah and is perfect, how can this be when there are translations and differences as I have shown?[/quote:fabc428247]This is a different story all together. you can make your own book and call it the Qoran. Blasphemy? yes. possible? also yes. we're not talking about mere translations, we're talking about making a comic, lets say. and claim its divinity.
Non the less, God still protected His book and it remains. However much you may try to make different copies, the one which is true will always remain, until the end of days. THAT is protecting the Book. It doesnt mean that no one will ever try to edit or change in it to ruin our nation, but however much you may try, God's book will remain in its glory and remain on earth as a guidance to humanity forever.
As I have said in my first post here, france and Israel have tried to make copies. I never said it was impossible, yet they never succeed in destroying us, because any change would be obvious. We memorise our book through generations, whisper, thats the greatest way to preserve a book. no one, no one, can change our book with the way we preserve it.
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The Qur'an On Trial - Whisper - 06-08-2003
Stop dancing around again, I have already caught you out in the other topic.
A person doesn't need to understand Arabic to judge if THE Qur'an is IDENTICAL in all countries.
To be IDENTICAL is for something to be exactly the same as something else.
That is the claim of the QUR'AN.
PERFECT, UNCHANGEABLE, it has to be the same, EXACTLY.
If a dot is out of place, there is a difference.
Stop wasting my time..........
Next............
The Qur'an On Trial - Purgetory - 06-08-2003
Whispers, how can you not need to know arabic to know the difference between two arabic books?
The Qoran is protected and is unchangable. You may have other books which CLAIM to be the Qoran, yet they are not. The Qoran remains there, and will always remain.
Am I repeating myself here? your the one thats dancing around Whispers.
The Qur'an On Trial - Whisper - 06-08-2003
Look at the below,
12121212121212121
11121112111212111
You see, that was for you, to show how a person can tell if something is identical or not.
Obviously the above two lines are different.
If I see one difference, (Although there are many many differences) in the Qur'an.
It is not an exact copy, and is not identical.
The two Qur'ans used were
THE QUR'AN ACCORDING TO THE TRANSMISSION OF IMAM HAFS AND SECOND, IMAM WARSH.
[img:17ea996c5c]http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven/hafs.jpg[/img:17ea996c5c]
[img:17ea996c5c]http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven/warsh.jpg[/img:17ea996c5c][/img]
The Qur'an On Trial - Purgetory - 06-08-2003
my dear whispers, I shall quote myself again and this time, read my post.
Quote:The Qoran is protected and is unchangable. You may have other books which CLAIM to be the Qoran, yet they are not. The Qoran remains there, and will always remain.[/quote:a2a68afcc9]There could be several books out there that claim to be the Qoran, yet only one is the true book and that one will never perish.
The Qur'an On Trial - Whisper - 06-08-2003
The Hafs' transmission Qur'an - i.e the top book, is the most commonly used Qur'an in the world.
The Warsh' transmission Qur'an - i.e - the botttom book is mainly used in North Africa.
There are other Qur'ans out there also - e.g
[img:7a9ca2c5c3]http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven/qalun50.jpg[/img:7a9ca2c5c3]
[img:7a9ca2c5c3]http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven/duri50.jpg[/img:7a9ca2c5c3]
The Qur'an that everyone has is supposed to be IDENTICAL.
"There could be several books out there that claim to be the Qoran, yet only one is the true book and that one will never perish."
So, where is it? -If there is one true book, it must be different to the ones i have presented, otherwise you would say so.
Aren't all Qur'ans IDENTICAL?
UNCHANGEABLE, PERFECT?