Liberal Muslims - Printable Version

Liberal Muslims - Printable Version

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Liberal Muslims - John 3:16 - 10-17-2003

Dan, I know a good deal about Islam but tell me, and I'm being blunt here, you and the others here have yet to comment on the verses I posted. Now the bottom line is that they are indeed in the Qur'an and the Hadith.

Does anyone here agree entirely with what is preached in those verses?

Have another look.... but do you see the difference between Muhammad the Military leader and Jesus The Christ, could anyone point to one instance when Jesus ordered the killing of someone, when an apostle used a sword to protect Jesus, Jesus immediately told him to put it away, the old phrase, "If you live the sword, you will die by the sword", how can you believe that Muhammad is the final prophet?

2:190-193 "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you ... And slay them wherever ye catch them ... And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God ..."

2:216 "Fighting is prescribed for you and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth and ye know not."

2:224 "Then fight in the cause of God and know that God heareth and knoweth all things."

3:157-158 "And if ye are slain or die in the way of God, forgiveness and mercy from God are far better than all they could amass. And if ye die, or are slain, Lo! It is unto God that ye are brought together."

3:169 "Think not of those who are slain in God's way as dead. Nay, they live finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord."

3:195 "... Those who have ... fought or been slain, verily I will blot out from them their iniquities and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath; a reward from the presence of God ..."

4:101 "... For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies."

4:74, 75 "Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of God whether he is slain or gets victory, soon shall we give him a reward of great (value). Those who believe fight in the cause of God and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil, so fight ye against the friends of Satan, feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan."

4:89 "They but wish that ye should reject faith as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they. But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them…"

4:95 "Not equal are those believers who sit at (at home) and receive no hurt and those who strive and fight in the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than those who sit (at home).

5:36 "The punishment of those who wage war against God and His apostle and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land. That is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter."

5:54 "O ye who believe. Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust."

8:12-17 "Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips off them. This because they contend against God and his apostle. If any contend against God and his apostle, God is strict in punishment ... O ye who believe. When ye meet the unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day, unless it be a stratagem of war ... he draws on himself the wrath of God and his abode is Hell, an evil refuge (indeed)."

8:59-60 "Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly). They will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of God and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know ..."

8:65 "O apostle! Rouse the believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred. If a hundred they will vanquish a thousand of the unbelievers, for these are a people without understanding."

9:5 "... fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) ..."

9:14 "Fight them, and God will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame ..."

9:29 "Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and his apostle nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay the Jizya [religious tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

47:4 "Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks, at length when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them) ... but if it had been God's will, he could certainly have exacted retribution from them (himself), but (he lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of God, he will never let their deeds be lost."

61:4 "Truly God loves those who fight in His cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure."

And these from The Hadith

"Allah's Apostle said, ‘Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords.’" (vol. 4, p. 55)

"Allah's Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ and whoever says, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ his life and property will be saved by me…" (vol. 4, p. 124)

"It is not fitting for a prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he has made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land…" (vol. 4, p. 161)

"Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him." (vol. 9, p. 45)

"An infidel spy came to the Prophet while he was on a journey. The spy sat with the companions of the Prophet and started talking and then went away. The Prophet said (to his companions), ‘Chase and kill him.’ So, I killed him. The Prophet then gave him the belongings of the killed spy." (vol. 4, pp. 181-182)

"Some people from the tribe of Ukl came to the Prophet and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered them to go to the (herd of milk) camels of charity and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away. The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophet ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die." (vol. 8, pp. 519-520)

"The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." (vol. 4, pp. 158-159)

Liberal Muslims - Guest - 10-17-2003

John 3:16, I think you are just being antagonistic here, on 2 fronts. 1. By re quoting what you said earlier and 2. Quoting in length will get the "Web Police" on to you. [Image: wink.gif]

Going by the verses quote, it's Islam's way or rhe highway !!

Liberal Muslims - John 3:16 - 10-17-2003

"2. Any one has an Islam related question of course is most welcome in an effort that members may provide the answer"

I have asked a question - here it is again, does your heart agree with those verses?

Does anyone here agree entirely with what is preached in those verses?

Liberal Muslims - Muslimah - 10-18-2003

Quote:Originally posted by HabibHibee Dan, I have got to admire your conviction ! However, you do fall into the catgory of the christian equivalent of \"bible basher\" with all that fire and brimstone rhetoric towards the end:D 

For me it's not about winning an argument it's about trying to figure out the true face of Islam and what it means to be a muslim.

I really can't see me being a muslim, way too much work. No alcohol, no sex, death to adulterers, I wouldn't last five minutes

Habib once u r in, you will be surprised that all what u fear to abandon is nothing. Christianity does not call of fornication either, or drinking or other ill manners, am I not right.

Liberal Muslims - Muslimah - 10-18-2003

Quote:Originally posted by John 3:16 \"2. Any one has an Islam related question of course is most welcome in an effort that members may provide the answer\"

I have asked a question - here it is again, does your heart agree with those verses?

Does anyone here agree entirely with what is preached in those verses?

And JOHN, I am a fundamentalist, proud to be one, fully believe in every single word not only verse of the Holy Quran which is from Allah. Just for the record, Islam is already spreading fast as u must know in the US and other Western communitities without a need to any reform as u say. U know why? because it simply fits.

As Habib and Dan clrealy observed, u r here to say Christianity is better than Islam.

and I think we will go back to our game Whisper, no one here Insh a Allah is interested to convert to Christianity, we are happy as Muslims, u r happy as Christian. If u want to stay this way good and well if not, I think we went throught this several times.

For a change I will not lock the thread nor will I ban u NOW. Let us see.

Liberal Muslims - John 3:16 - 10-18-2003

You answered the question, thankfully so.

I want Christians here to look at the verses that Muslimah agrees with, they are quite shocking and yet she doesn't practise what is preached herself, of course which is good but she isn't being very consistent as a Muslim.

Here is what Muslimah said, this is her answer

"I am a fundamentalist, proud to be one, fully believe in every single word not only verse of the Holy Quran which is from Allah"

Now apply the above to the following..... (A few examples)

5:54 "O ye who believe. Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust."

Muslimah, do you have Jewish and/or Christian friends?

Would you consider "MichelleSeeking" a friend?

Do you agree with the Qur'an here?

47:4 "Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks, at length when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them) ... but if it had been God's will, he could certainly have exacted retribution from them (himself), but (he lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of God, he will never let their deeds be lost."

Do you agree with this and have you put this into practise?

Is this a peaceful command?

4:89 "They but wish that ye should reject faith as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they. But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them…"

I could go on here and it's worth looking at the Hadith also, I've posted many verses from that book and I'm sure a Muslim here will comment on Muhammad's behaviour, again it's important, especially for Jews and Christians.

Liberal Muslims - SisterJennifer - 10-18-2003

Quote:Here is what Muslimah said, this is her answer:\"I am a fundamentalist, proud to be one, fully believe in every single word not only verse of the Holy Quran which is from Allah\"

You asked, Do you agree with this?

Yes, of course I do.

David, I am sure you realize that one could pick and choose selective verses from any book, Quran, Bible, or whatever, and try to paint some kind of picture based on a very small portion of the entire content.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but you do not strike me as a person really wishing to better understand Islamic teaching.

Do you, or do you have some other aim?

Thank you,

Jennifer

Liberal Muslims - John 3:16 - 10-19-2003

Jennifer,

5:54 - According to Allah in the Qur'an, you should not have Jewish and/or Christian friends, that if you befriend one, you also are one of them. The picture is painted already, your God has said this, do you obey this command?

47:4 - According to the mighty Allah in the Qur'an, the unbelievers should be brought under forcible control (That's putting it politely) and then tied up, Allah justifies this behaviour, you only have to read the end of that particular verse to come to this conclusion.

Here's another quote

8:12-17 - "Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips off them.,

Do you agree with this course of action?

You know, I haven't really touched on what Muhammad did yet, but as far I'm concerned, if indeed you are a Muslim, you must therefore agree with what Allah in the Qur'an says and you should do what Allah says, you must then be a violent people because you are commanded to be violent towards unbelievers, I am according to Allah from the Qur'an your enemy. You cannot be a moderate in today's world because that implies that you are reasonable.

Do you agree that Allah in the Qur'an condoned terrorism?

*edited by Jennifer*

Liberal Muslims - SisterJennifer - 10-19-2003

Taken from the forum rules:

10. Based on the above mentioned, the forum team retains the right to delete/ edit any topic that if found not compatible with our rules. Mainly of course topics which may touch, slander or abuse Allah, Quran or our beloved Prophet Mohamed (PAPBUH).

Liberal Muslims - John 3:16 - 10-19-2003

The end of the edited paragraph has lost a little bit of its original meaning but suffice it to say that the uncut ending contained the words - Extremism, The Qur'an, Allah, Today's world, and Muslims, the ending is up for interpretation.

I don't want anyone here to cop out in an effort to evade the points made.