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Islamic Hijaab - Lightuponlight - 08-05-2004
Peace,
Quote:There is no doubt that a Muslim woman shall cover her hair, IF she wants to follow Allah, SWT. If she on the other hand will not, then that is her choice - There is no compulsion in religion.
Can you give me the ayat where The God commands Muslim women to cover their hair?
Thanks.
Islamic Hijaab - umm Zachariah - 08-05-2004
Hi again and salaam,
It is the same Surahs that has been quoted by both yourself and others.
Surah 24.31 - illa ma zahara minha - reflects the interpretation made by the first generation of Muslims, especially Al-Qiffal (cited by Razi) which means 'what according to prevalent custom (al-adah al-djariyah) openly can be shown.
The noun KHIMAR (plur. KHUMUR) indicates the veil that the Arabian women before and after Islam used to fasten over their hair. According to several commentators this veil was worn more or less like a adornment, loosely hanging down on the back, and since the womens dress according to the custom of that time included a deep low-neck the bust was left partly visable. The women therefore is requested to cover it with the help of the KHIMAR (well known during the Prophet's, PHUB, time).
So the word that tells us that we SHALL wear it and HOW to wear it, is KHUMUR that can be read in this verse. And an effort in finding out HOW it was worn will give the answer to 'shall I wear the hijab or not?'. IF one is interesting in following the Way given to us by Allah, SWT. And as I wrote earlier, if NOT, well that is up to the woman. The responsibility is up to each and everyone of us. No one else can be burden with that. That is the beauty of Islam, everyone is responsible for their own decisions and actions.
Do you know that wearing the hijab is not a new custom that Arab women or Muslim women started with? An interesting study between the three monotheistic religions called 'Women in Islam versus Women in the Judeo-Christian Tradition: The Myth and The Reality' can be read on for example the site: http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsecti...p?articleid=127. There we can be updated on that also Jewish and Christian women before us also did wear it (and that some still do). Other comparising subjects for us women can be read too in this same study. I have benefitted much from it. It is so informative.
Salaam
Islamic Hijaab - Lightuponlight - 08-06-2004
Hey,
The word that is being manipulated is the arabic word Khimar, which means cover, any cover. A dress can be a khimar, a curtain can be khimar, a table cloth, a blanket, etc. Khamra is used to mean intoxicant. Khimar and khamra have the same root. Khamra covers the state of mind, whereas khimar covers something physical.
If you look at 24-31, The God is telling the women to draw their khimars OVER THEIR BOSOMS, NOT THEIR HEADS. The Arabic word for head, raas, isn't even in that verse.
Peace.
Islamic Hijaab - umm Zachariah - 08-06-2004
Salaam,
If you state that the words in the Quran is manipulated, then you have to stand up for that before Allah, SWT, when your turn comes to meet Him. As a Muslimah I know the danger of stating things that I have no knowledge of, it is very clear for me, do you know what it means? It is a very dangerous way you have taken.
I gave you an historical explanation to the word KHIMAR, which was well known to the people during the time that the Quran was revealed. I see that you have no bigger interest in facts, you want to make other interpretations. But you must bear in mind that you cannot read the Quran in the way that you like, since it is Allah, SWT, that has made the decision HOW to reveal it to us and what words it shall contain.
Why dont you let us Muslims follow the Words of Allah, SWT, since it is we that feel blessed that He has chosen us to follow His Message? If we want to obey His command to wear the hijab, why dont you let us do that in peace? Isnt that what you write everytime you write on this forum? Peace? Are you unhappy that we feel blessed and content with the blessings of Islam? For us to obey our Creator is the highest blessing we can reach. For us that is happiness and peace.
Consider the word peace or salaam again - join us in finding out the truth of Islam, by mutual respect and with the willingness to learn. That WILL bring peace in mind and in the heart. If you cannot do that, it may be better to take a step backwards and take a break. For the sake of peace.
Salaam
Islamic Hijaab - Lightuponlight - 08-06-2004
Peace,
I clearly stated the definition of the word khimar, its relation to khamra and the root. I clearly stated that, there is no command to cover the HEAD/HAIR in that verse.
You stated: I know the danger of stating things that I have no knowledge of
And when if you say that, The God has told us to cover our head, without being able to substantiate it that claim, via the Reading, then, you go against what you have said.
But, if you wish to ascribe something to The God without being able to prove it, then, that's all you.
I am not here to cause fitna or any corruption/trouble. I am here to learn from you and the other brothers/sisters here, and maybe you can learn a thing or two from me, too. Unfortunately, not many people here are willing to give me a chance. I start a thread, they close it and say I'm deviated.
I'm willing to learn and discuss based on logic and reason. And if you are too, then, that's great.
If not, then, to each is own (17-84)
Peace.
Islamic Hijaab - radiyah - 08-06-2004
Al-salam 'alaykom
How are u sister Umzakharia, hope u r doing fine, and masha'Allah jazaky Allah khayr for your post.
U know the problem with lightuponlight that he is already claiming to be a muslim, and I do not know what sect of Islam he belongs to, the more we explain to him, the more he manipulates with the words of Allah and then he claims that we are manipulating. And if u can c that he is not using the word Al-Salam 'Alaykom when he is starting his speach. He is using the word Peace, we use that for Ahl-Alkitab and Kuffar, so what kind of a muslim is he?
Wasalam
Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem
Quote:Here are GOD's WORDS ONLY without any nasty insertions in them:
Lightuponlight stop being sarcastic, and arrogant as well, first of all what u quoted as words of Allah, is not the authentic words of Allah, because that is a translation of the translation of Quran. and u r changing that translation to your own nafs. Since u do not beleive in Sunnah( and that is the translation of the Quran by prophet Muhammad, (PBUH) and he is a Prophet, then are u better than him claiming to know what Allah Subhanahu Wa ta'ala meant by the words in Quran, now that will be another issue that we will discuss on another post. So now let us go back to the Hijab or Khimar issue.
Quote: Hey,
The word that is being manipulated is the arabic word Khimar, which means cover, any cover. A dress can be a khimar, a curtain can be khimar, a table cloth, a blanket, etc. Khamra is used to mean intoxicant. Khimar and khamra have the same root. Khamra covers the state of mind, whereas khimar covers something physical.
If you look at 24-31, The God is telling the women to draw their khimars OVER THEIR BOSOMS, NOT THEIR HEADS. The Arabic word for head, raas, isn't even in that verse.
No a KHIMAR is a KHIMAR, it is not a curtain, it is not a dress, it is not a table cloth or
a blanket, stop changing meanings of arabic words.
The word <b>Khimar</b>, when Allah Subhanahu wa T'ala adresses women by saying:
"Wa leyadrebna bekhomorehena 'ala jeyoubihina" it means :
KHOMOREHENA= is plural for KHIMAR, and the (hena) is to stress that he is talking
to women, which means in arabic what a woman covers her head with, and then
throwes it over her bossom, from head to bossom. What u r trying to manipulate
here that khumur could mean what ever could be covered is not true, because the
ayah is clear, Allah Subhanahu Wa Talla here is addressing the muslim women, and
not adressing table or wall or box or anything else(WOMEN), so when it comes to
women a KHIMAR is what she covers her head with, and u r not to change the
menaing of an arabic word according to your own whims..
If u look in an arabic /arabic dictionary it says :
إختمرت المرأة, أي لبست الخمار, والخمار ما تغطي المرأة به رأسها.
Ikhtamarat almar'a = the woman wore her khimar, and a khimar is what a woman should cover her head with. So it means Hijab is an obligation from Allah.
Quote:and let them place their covers over their chests.
Is this how it was mentioned in the Quran, u r the one who is manipulating the words
of Allah. The word cover here means ghita'a in Arabic, Allah subhanahu wa t'ala did not use that word, he used KHuMURIHINA, because it is clear and obivious that it is a head cover. Now if u will again tell me where does the word head comes in the aya, this means u r ignorant of the beauty of the Quran, and why it is a miracle, and how Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala uses the Arabic language in a way that no1 could ever write like it, the arabic language is a rich language, I suppose u should know that( I am assuming u know Arabic) and when Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala describes something he does not describe it like any human being He Is the ILLAH, and the only person who translates what Allah means is Prophet Mohammad taught to him by Gabriel.
In The Name Of Allah The Most Gracious The Most Merciful:
7. It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad ) the Book (this Qur'ân). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkâm (commandments, etc.), Al-Farâ'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allâh. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabarî).
8. (They say): "Our Lord! Let not our hearts deviate (from the truth) after You have guided us, and grant us mercy from You. Truly, You are the Bestower."
9. Our Lord! Verily, it is You Who will gather mankind together on the Day about which there is no doubt. Verily, Allâh never breaks His Promise". 3, Al-Imran
This is an aya from The Quran, to say that only Allah knows of hidden meanings, and he said also that it is those who are firmly grounded in knowledge that beleive in such, the known and the hidden, and they do not claim to know what is hidden.
Quote:O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they should draw their cloaks about themselves. That is better so that they would be recognized and not harmed. God is Forgiver, Merciful. 33-59
This verse is about lengthening our garments. NOTHING about covering our HEADS.
Will u tell me here, when Allah says that they would not be recognized what does it mean?
<b> 1. identify somebody or something seen before: to identify a thing or person because of having perceived him, her, or it before</b>
If you saw him again, would you recognize him?
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/recognize.html
Then identify is to recognize one when seeing him, knowing him if he sees his face, so when Allah says that they are not to be recognized it means that they are not to be known when seen. Again u r playing with Allah's words and translating them according to what pleases u.
In arabic in the Quran it says:
" Ya ayuha Alnaby gul leazwajik wa banatek wa nisa'a almo'meneen yudneena 'aleyhen min <b>jlabeebihina thalika adna alla yu'rafna fla yo'thayn,</b> wa kan Allah Ghaforan Raheema"
1) Jilbab in arabic language is what a wide dress cloak that a woman covers her whole body with from head to toe, which is now known as abaya which is worn over the Thoub=Dress, so a jilbab is not an ordinary dress. so when u want to refute something return it to its correct original arabic root , and I hope that u will stop repeating yourself.
Again I say that u r a submitter, belonging to rashad khalifa the cult, because what u
u r trying to convey here, or the dogma u r using is exactly the same as his, again peacfully we are asking u to repent, otherwise it is up to Allah subhanahu Wa Ta'ala to
expose all of u in the future.
This is the dress code on the submitters site and all that non accepting to Sunnah stuff. Will u still deny that u do not belong to his sect?
http://www.submission.org/dress.html
Peace
Islamic Hijaab - radiyah - 08-06-2004
Quote: Peace,
I clearly stated the definition of the word khimar, its relation to khamra and the root. I clearly stated that, there is no command to cover the HEAD/HAIR in that verse.
You stated: I know the danger of stating things that I have no knowledge of
And when if you say that, The God has told us to cover our head, without being able to substantiate it that claim, via the Reading, then, you go against what you have said.
But, if you wish to ascribe something to The God without being able to prove it, then, that's all you.
I am not here to cause fitna or any corruption/trouble. I am here to learn from you and the other brothers/sisters here, and maybe you can learn a thing or two from me, too. Unfortunately, not many people here are willing to give me a chance. I start a thread, they close it and say I'm deviated.
I'm willing to learn and discuss based on logic and reason. And if you are too, then, that's great.
If not, then, to each is own (17-84)
Peace.
Well it seems u r not giving yourself the chance to learn, we are giving u proofs and u r
not accepting them, now may I ask u 1 question. do u know arabic, if u dont then I can say yes maybe u r mislead and we are then willing to help u, but if u do, well it seems u need to learn the arabic language all over again.
Islamic Hijaab - Lightuponlight - 08-06-2004
Peace be upon you,
Quote:U know the problem with lightuponlight that he is already claiming to be a muslim, and I do not know what sect of Islam he belongs to, the more we explain to him, the more he manipulates with the words of Allah and then he claims that we are manipulating. And if u can c that he is not using the word Al-Salam 'Alaykom when he is starting his speach. He is using the word Peace, we use that for Ahl-Alkitab and Kuffar, so what kind of a muslim is he?
First of all, I am a female, and second of all, salam simly means peace.
Either you accept it, or you don't.
Quote:Lightuponlight stop being sarcastic, and arrogant as well, first of all what u quoted as words of Allah, is not the authentic words of Allah, because that is a translation of the translation of Quran. and u r changing that translation to your own nafs. Since u do not beleive in Sunnah( and that is the translation of the Quran by prophet Muhammad, (PBUH) and he is a Prophet, then are u better than him claiming to know what Allah Subhanahu Wa ta'ala meant by the words in Quran, now that will be another issue that we will discuss on another post. So now let us go back to the Hijab or Khimar issue.
You and the others here, keep saying: SUNNAH OF MUHAMMAD, now, whenever I ask you or the others to GO to al quran and produce the verse which speaks of the SUNNAH OF MUHAMMAD, you either evade it, or resort to diatribes and ad hominem arguments.
Now, please don't duck it this time. I'd like to see the verse that says: SUNNAH OF MUHAMMAD
Quote:No a KHIMAR is a KHIMAR, it is not a curtain, it is not a dress, it is not a table cloth or
a blanket, stop changing meanings of arabic words.
The word Khimar, when Allah Subhanahu wa T'ala adresses women by saying:
"Wa leyadrebna bekhomorehena 'ala jeyoubihina" it means :
KHOMOREHENA= is plural for KHIMAR, and the (hena) is to stress that he is talking
to women, which means in arabic what a woman covers her head with, and then
throwes it over her bossom, from head to bossom. What u r trying to manipulate
here that khumur could mean what ever could be covered is not true, because the
ayah is clear, Allah Subhanahu Wa Talla here is addressing the muslim women, and
not adressing table or wall or box or anything else(WOMEN), so when it comes to
women a KHIMAR is what she covers her head with, and u r not to change the
menaing of an arabic word according to your own whims..
If u look in an arabic /arabic dictionary it says :
إختمرت المرأة, أي لبست الخمار, والخمار ما تغطي المرأة به رأسها.
Ikhtamarat almar'a = the woman wore her khimar, and a khimar is what a woman should cover her head with. So it means Hijab is an obligation from Allah.
Stop trying to manipulate the words. The word khimar simply means cover, as khamra means an intoxicant which covers the state of mind. Khimar can also mean head-covering, that's right, did I ever say that it doesn't mean head-covering? But khimar can also mean COVER, and you have to put the meaning which best fits the context of the verse, not that which suits your own whims and fansies.
The God is telling women to DRAW THEIR KHOMORINA OVER THEIR <i><b>BOSOMS</b></i> Therefore, the best translation is COVER. Had The God said to draw it over your head, then it would be accurate to translate it as headcovering
The God never said ANYTHING about covering the HEAD, so to ASSOCIATE khimar with HEAD is WRONG.
The Arabic word for head isn't even in there.
The God never said to cover the head.
If you says that He did, then point it out, verbatim, that He said so. Otherwise, don't misrepresent Him and say things about Him which you have no knowledge of.
Quote:Well it seems u r not giving yourself the chance to learn, we are giving u proofs and u r
not accepting them, now may I ask u 1 question. do u know arabic, if u dont then I can say yes maybe u r mislead and we are then willing to help u, but if u do, well it seems u need to learn the arabic language all over again.
I am learning fushaa. And it seems that, you need to stop trying to manipulate other meaning for God's words, as you people love to do it over here, hikma = sunnah instead of wisdom, who knows what's going to be next.
Peace.
Islamic Hijaab - umm Zachariah - 08-06-2004
Salaam Lightuponlight,
Your definition of Khimar is fascinating in a way, since the thought havent even occured to me before that I could be a TABLE. Allah, speaking to me in the Quran as a table and tells me to cover my head - where is my head if I am a table?
Dont you think this is going a bit out of hand now? This is not serious learning, this is ridiculing honorable women. Peace or true knowledge will never be gained this way.
You are welcome to state whatever pleases you, the statements of Allah, SWT, pleases me more.
It is you that say that I say against myself, I have evaluted what I said and I am posivite that you are badly mistaken. But that is human, all can make a mistake. The brave thing to do when failing, is to repent and ask for forgiveness. We humans can also use that concept among ourselves. To ask each other of forgivness for doing or saying what was not true. THAT brings peace in mind for the wrongdoer. The door is open...
IF you are here to learn and share the genuine interpretation of the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad's, PHUB, Sunnah - that is good. IF not, there are quite a few other places to misinterpret the Islamic religion. But this is not the right place, that I definitely can say after being on this pages for some days.
Salaam
Islamic Hijaab - radiyah - 08-06-2004
Quote: <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Lightuponlight" data-cite="Lightuponlight" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="1748" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> Peace,
I clearly stated the definition of the word khimar, its relation to khamra and the root. I clearly stated that, there is no command to cover the HEAD/HAIR in that verse.
You stated: I know the danger of stating things that I have no knowledge of
And when if you say that, The God has told us to cover our head, without being able to substantiate it that claim, via the Reading, then, you go against what you have said.
But, if you wish to ascribe something to The God without being able to prove it, then, that's all you.
I am not here to cause fitna or any corruption/trouble. I am here to learn from you and the other brothers/sisters here, and maybe you can learn a thing or two from me, too. Unfortunately, not many people here are willing to give me a chance. I start a thread, they close it and say I'm deviated.
I'm willing to learn and discuss based on logic and reason. And if you are too, then, that's great.
If not, then, to each is own (17-84)
Peace.
Well it seems u r not giving yourself the chance to learn, we are giving u proofs and u r
not accepting them, now may I ask u 1 question. do u know arabic, if u dont then I can say yes maybe u r mislead and we are then willing to help u, but if u do, well it seems u need to learn the arabic language all over again.
</div></blockquote>
U r useless, u do not want to understand do u, and u did not answer my question, do u know arabic or not, if u dont then I will answer your questions, if u do u need to learn perfect arabic. and stop ordering around as if u are boss around here. I have fully explained what is a khimar according to arabic language, and u r still repeating the same mistakes and u r the one who is still manipulating, words which means u r so ill at arabic language. And the Sunnah issue we will talk about it in another thread and not here. And u better lower your tone of attacking.
Wait and be patient and all your attacks will be refuted, and if u r not convinced it is your own problem, u do not accept what we preach here, then u may leave and propagate your Ideas somewhere else, otherwise be patient and u will be answered.
I know that when one is wrong, and does not want to admit, then he/she becomes nervous and starts shouting and attacking, and keeps repeating himself, and that is exactly what I am seeing from u.
Hasbuna Allah Wa NI'ma Al-Wakeel