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Abrogation - Muslimah - 06-20-2005
Bismillah
as salam alykom
I need to make an improtant comment on post #3:
However, I need to stress a point here, the first rule is not abrogated in the sense not applied or used. What I mean is that both rules are not contradicting to each other, since each the first one indicates the Capability and Extend of Allah's Knowledge due to which He Knows what we disclose or keep inside.
While at the same time Allah Does not burden a person beyond his scope.
There are similar other positions in Quran where Allah Puts forth according to the context and rule needing to be stressed both Attributes such as:
"And there is no sin on you if you make a hint of betrothal or conceal it in yourself, Allah knows that you will remember them, but do not make a promise of contract with them in secret except that you speak an honourable saying according to the Islamic law (e.g. you can say to her, "If one finds a wife like you, he will be happy"). And do not consummate the marriage until the term prescribed is fulfilled. <b>And know that Allah knows what is in your minds, so fear Him</b>. <b>And know that Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Forbearing
</b>." (Quran 2:235)
Now would u say that both sentences in one Ayah abrogated each other, no Allah Shall Remain the One Who Knows what is in our minds that we must fear but He Is at the same time the Oft - Forgiving Most Forebearing.
And Allah Knows best
Abrogation - Muslimah - 10-07-2005
Bismillah
As salam alykom
Still on the copy of Ayah's part in this issue.
The word naskh is also to write either to copy or even start writing. Another meaning is to replace.
In order to follow a more scientific coarse in this issue, the legislation (Sharia) related abrogation definition is to cease the application of a given ruling which was made by virtue of a legal text from Quran or Sunnah to be replaced by another legal text that followed from Quran and Sunnah. The process is made due to a wisdom within Sharia. However, the preceding ruling shall remain valid to be applied.
We can add here for example that Allah actually annuled (replaced) both the Injeel and Tawrah with the Quran. This is what can be considered as a real abrogation. For now we dont apply them any more and Quran fully replaced them.
On another note:
One of the Ayahs that mostly receive the criticism of non Muslims who try to diminish the authenticity of Quran as they introduce it in a way that makes Allah (astghaferullah) regretted the ruling Allah Made and changed His mind is:
“And those of your women who commit illegal sexual intercourse, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death comes to them or Allah ordains for them some (other) way.” (Quran 4:15)
The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. (This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allah's Law).
Sites that are devoted to attack Islam perceives those two Ayahs as one contradicting the other. Or to be more precise, one ruling annulling the other.
In this case, the two Ayahs do contain the sense of abrogation as the ruling of locking women who commit Zina in their houses till they die was changed in the second Ayah.
At the wake of Islam, the ruling applied on a woman who commits zina was to be locked in the house. However, when Allah Made this ruling, in the same Ayah Allah may He be Glorified, Indicated that it is a temporary ruling that has a time limit only known to Allah. It is clearly driven from the second part of the Ayah saying: or Allah ordains for them some (other) way.
This way out was revealed afterwards in the other Ayah that stipulates a hundred strips flog for each one provided they are both unmarried. As for the married individual, the ruling is derived from the Sunnah.
In such case, the situation is not more than a gradual coarse of education from Allah Who in many areas Took things on stages. Matter of fact, we can safely say, that only due to Allah’s Wisdom that rulings are made in such gradual manner. It can be only attributed to (astaghferullah) a lesser perfection of Allah by those who want to believe as such due to their own ill minds or those who strive to propagate lies about Islam without real understanding.
Another Ayah that also receives major attention in this regard is:
“O Prophet (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم)! Urge the believers to fight. If there are twenty steadfast persons amongst you, they will overcome two hundreds, and if there be a hundred steadfast persons they will overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are people who do not understand.”
” Now Allâh has lightened your (task), for He knows that there is weakness in you. So if there are of you a hundred steadfast persons, they shall overcome two hundreds, and if there are a thousand of you, they shall overcome two thousand with the Leave of Allâh. And Allâh is with As-Sâbirûn (the patient)” (Quran 8:65-66).
As we can see, the two Ayahs contain clear change or let us say abrogation. The first Ayah makes it obligatory on the believers to confront their enemy in the ratio 1:10 while the second one decreased the ratio to 1:2.
The mitigation of fighting burden put on the group of believers is the legislation wisdom in this gradual change. How can this be interpreted into a fault and that Allah Changes His mind. It is not more than the interaction between the Creator and His Creator. The assertion that Allah Is All Near and Close to us. I see it as Allah Is Telling the Creation this is what you might be exposed to of burden. Then Allah confirms that as He previously promised not to burden a soul of what it may be capable of taking, Allah decreased this burden. Just to stress the fact that Allah Does not change His mind, the underlined word He Knows, actually in Arabic is put in the past tense as a`lema which literally translates as Knew. This one word explains the fact that Allah already Knew they suffer weakness, just tested them to see how their situation may have been, responded with His mercy and lightened the burden in order for them to always recall this blessing and feel grateful.
Alhamdulelah Who Has Guided us for this and if it was not for Allah We wouldnt have been guided.
Whatever is correct is from Allah and whatever is wrong is from me and shaytan.
Abrogation - Muslimah - 10-22-2005
Bismillah
as salam alykom
Before Insh a Allah I continue on explaining the Ayahs that usually cause confusion on the side of non Muslims or even Muslims, I need to touch on a crucial Ayah that non Muslims twist to attack the authenticity of Quran.
"Have you then considered (the idols of the pagan Arabs:) Al-Lat, and Al-'Uzza* And Manat (another idol of the pagan Arabs), the other third?" (Quran 53:19-20)
In this Ayah, Allah Is bringing the names of the three main idols highly respected by the pagans at that time. This Surat (Annajm) was the first Surah to revealed (a Meccan Surat) containing a position of Sajda (prostration) in quran which comes at the end of the Surah:
"So fall you down in prostration to Allah, and worship Him (Alone)."
When the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam recited this surat while praying at Ka`ba, a number of pagans where standing behind him listening in complete awe. They were so much taken by the words of Quran, carefully listening with full respect, that by the time the position where one who recites must follow the Command of Allah and Prostrates came, the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam went down immediately. The group of pagans who were listening followed without thinking and prostrated as well.
Later on, they received much blame and criticism from their peers. In order to verify their action and not be accused that they were deeply affected by Quran, they lied,claimed, alleged and said that Mohamed salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam praised their idols after mentioning their names through a verse in Quran. But one who reads the Surat does not of course find such praise (waliyadhubillah). This incident was somehow misinterpreted as that waliyadhubillah satan was able to throw this part to the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam who just repeated it but then Allah abrogated this part and took it off.
However, the situation is just as explained above. Such verses were not even included. It was just a way out the group of pagans used to verify their prostration after the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam
Alhamdulelah
wa Allahu a`lam
Abrogation - reepicheep - 10-23-2005
The hadith contain at least one clear example where Mohammad modified a passage in the Koran:
Quote:Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 118:
Narrated Al-Bara:
When the Verse:--"Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home)," (4.95) was revealed, the Prophet said, "Call so-and-so." That person came to him with an ink-pot and a wooden board or a shoulder scapula bone. The Prophet said (to him), "Write: 'Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and those who strive and fight in the Cause of Allah." Ibn Um Maktum who was sitting behind the Prophet then said, "O Allah's Apostle! I am a blind man." So there was revealed in the place of that Verse, the Verse:--"Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home) except those who are disabled (by injury, or are blind or lame etc.) and those who strive and fight in the Cause of Allah." (4.95)
As the above hadith shows: originally, Surah 4:95 stated that "not equal are those believers who sit and those who strive and fight". But Um Maktum, a blind man, pointed out that this wasn't really fair since blind men (for example) couldn't be expected to fight.
So, Mohammad changed Surah 4:95 to read "not equal are those of the believers who sit except those who are disabled...".
Since we know that Mohammad modified Surah 4:95, it is not unreasonable to assume that other verses were modified, too (for example, Surah 53:19-20 which reportedly included the "Satanic Verses" which Mohammad later deleted from the Koran).
Reepicheep.
beeble_canada@yahoo.ca
Abrogation - mohsie - 10-23-2005
Reepicheep: Two points... first of all, you have to check the authenticity of the hadith, which by the way looks TOTALLY fabricated. Secondly, even if we assume that the hadith is authentic, it is possible that Angel Gibraeel was right there with the Prophet Muhammad when this happened, and he gave the Prophet the correct words by the Order of Allah. Since only the Prophets of Allah can see the Angels, the person who came to write the verse would not have seen the Angel Gibraeel.
You have to be careful with which hadiths you actually believe. I mean, there are loads of fabricated hadiths out there, especially if you are looking at some un-authentic website, which could have easily been created by a non-Muslim, by an enemy of Islam!
Abrogation - Anyabwile - 10-23-2005
Quote: it is possible that Angel Gibraeel was right there with the Prophet Muhammad when this happened, and he gave the Prophet the correct words by the Order of Allah.
But then this would be Allah correcting a mistake?? and Allah knowing the future would not need to correct a mistake or something he'd forgot to mention. Allah words are pefect and need no changing, am i right?
Also these (Bukhari) Hadith are where some of the most important aspects of the religion are learnt from. The ONLY place how to pray etc etc would be learnt from.
To pick whats fabricated and what isn't from the two authentic hadith is just blind fear of not wanting to accept some of the more questionable things Mohammed did Moshie.
One of the many things i admired about Muslimah (even tho now disagree with her) was how she wasnt ashamed of the genuine hadith and stuck by them. Same with the quran, one time (and forgive me if im wrong Muslimah i might be [img]style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif[/img] ) but one time on here we were talking about space and i mentioned the stars and you actually said, they were there to ward of Jin. You didnt try and say oh thats a mis interpritation, i know thats from Quran but its the same example of not being ashamed of the more unusual and distrubing aspects of Islam. You "stick by your guns" as we say in the uk.
You cant call a reliable hadith un authentic because you dont like it, that makes it sound like one is scared or embaressed of things the prophet has done.
Abrogation - reepicheep - 10-23-2005
mohsie wrote:
> first of all, you have to check the authenticity
> of the hadith, which by the way looks
> TOTALLY fabricated.
>
> You have to be careful with which hadiths you
> actually believe. I mean, there are loads of
> fabricated hadiths out there, especially if you
> are looking at some un-authentic website,
> which could have easily been created by a
> non-Muslim, by an enemy of Islam!
I just checked five different web sources for the Bukhari collection, and all include this hadith. So, there seems to be no doubt that the hadith is authentic. If you research this yourself, you will see that I am right. I think we can safely conclude that I am not quoting from an un-authentic website.
Anyabwile the Wise wrote:
> You can't call a reliable hadith un authentic
> because you dont like it, that makes it sound
> like one is scared or embarassed of things
> the prophet has done.
So, from a theological standpoint, it is not valid to just ignore this hadith or say that it is not authentic. If the Bukhari collection is considered to be authentic, then all the hadith in Bukhari must be considered to be authentic. And, if this hadith is authentic, then it must be explained.
I have searched the web for Muslim websites which explain this hadith, but was unsuccessful in finding any.
Reepicheep.
beeble_canada@yahoo.ca
Abrogation - Anyabwile - 10-23-2005
Quote:So, from a theological standpoint, it is not valid to just ignore this hadith or say that it is not authentic. If the Bukhari collection is considered to be authentic, then all the hadith in Bukhari must be considered to be authentic. And, if this hadith is authentic, then it must be explained.
Yes although i know muslims who have a system of filtering out genuine hadith that don't sound like they fit with the Prophets character or they are embaressed of. Some have said to me "if it doesnt sound like the Prophet would have done that then i ignore it" some Muslims i prayed with and follow Islam in every way have said this to me. However my Imam said to me once if it's in authentic Hadith we must belive it. At least he was honest.
But yes, some Muslims do filter out if it doesnt sound right. It's like when you hear Muslims denying that Aisha was 6 yrs old when The Prophet Mohammed married her or showed intrest in marrying her and 9yrs old when he had sex with her. Some will say 19 or 16. Despite authentic Hadith confirming Her age, not to mention Aisha herself etc etc. But that's not really arguable in the Muslim world now, more the few embaressed converts who try to deny this.
I wish i was wise btw looking back i'd say foolish. But thank you.
Abrogation - Muslimah - 10-23-2005
Bismillah
Thank u Anya for this opinion about me, Alhamdulelah. However, I d rather ask u to show the same respect for any Muslim. Reverts are not embarrased. if u left that is fine, u r not harming anyone but yourself. But calling those who believe embarrased sorry, this is not acceptable.
belivers are not embarrased of anything. We know we are correct Alhamdulelah. If u r trying to convince yourself that u had to leave, that is not for us to deal with.
And pls stay on topic dont mix other issues here. We have a dedicated thread for the issue of this marriage. If u still want to discuss it.
Hold on everyone Insh a Allah i will try with Allah's Close assistance to explain this part.
There is a major misunderstanding in all of this, step by step Insh a Allah we will get there.
And yes Anya Quran say that what u call a star that u make a wish for is there to kill Shaytans. No I m not ashamed of anything in Quran or hadeeth, because this is Allah's Manual given to us to follow and apply as much as possible in order to attain the best in this world and the Day After.
reepi, I d really appreciate it if u can post the link from where u got the hadeeth. Meanwhile i m going to check it in Arabic and get to u. As I see u said that u checked Muslim sites for it and didnt find it. Unless u get the info from Muslim sites, dont come to us telling us what is this and what is that. We are not responsbile about how non Muslims enjoy distorting things.
Meanwhile u might as well learn about the issue of abrogation from here as we are Alhamdulelah a Muslim site.
I mean u cant be in a math class and tell the teacher than the PT teacher explained this point as such.
If u want to learn, read and learn. Dont bring us info from distorted sources and request we deal with it.
Till u get the source, I will continue with the thread, so just sit and learn pls rather than just wanting to talk. Listen and learn.
Hope this is clear as rule from now on.
mohsie, it never happended that Allah Changed His word under any circumstances.
Abrogation - Muslimah - 10-24-2005
Bismillah
Praise be to Allah Creator of the Creators The All Knowing and prayer and peace be upon His final Messenger, our leader and teacher and beloved Prophet Mohamed Ibn Abdullah, his household and companions.
[22:52]
Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise;
This is the Ayah which non Muslims base their argument that satanic verses do exist in Quran.
Actually, if those who claim so just understand the meaning they will not be saying so.
Now to start with let us focus and see that the Ayah is talking about either messengers or prophets. Pls take note that Prophets were sent to their own people, however, they didn’t have a book I mean a holy book from Allah, a revelation.
To say then that their books ( I mean the original ones from Allah not the corrupted ones that are being used now) contained satanic verses will be invalid since they didn’t have one to start with.
Then what does the Ayah mean? It is an information to the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam, in a way from Allah to console him on his position, that not one single messenger or prophet who were sent before him, except that they faced the same situation he is encountering. The situation of the target group with the call (recipients) who obey and follow their own ego and shaytans telling them that what the Messenger or prophet is calling for is wrong and must not be respected.
As such, we are not talking about Ayahs inserted into a holy book then abrogated by Allah, we are not talking about a Messenger or Prophet repeating what shaytan makes him say, inserts it into a holy book then abrogated as some would like to allege.
Allah Is Explaining how recipients rejected a message after another due to their own desires. But then Allah removes or abolishes what they distort of the calls, as we are aware that nations after nations always distorted the Divine calls, worshiping idols, sun, or fire, or people and so forth. Then Allah Sobhanhu wa Ta`la abolishes such distortions and establishes His signs, His proofs, His Evidences.
Note that Allah in this Ayah Didn’t Say while the Messenger or Prophet is reciting (with all due respect to the translator’s effort) Ayahs revealed to him, but rather Allah Say while conveyed the message. In Arabic the word is Tamana which means to convey a message or more precise wish for people to believe. Thus saying that Quran contains verses dictated to the Messenger from shaytan is an invalid argument since it is based on wrong grounds due to misinterpretation of this verse for the interest of those who want to live in their wishful thinking.
The meaning would be also that not a Messenger or a Prophet who came to call to Allah just as u r doing, except that shaytan came to the recipients and threw doubts in their hearts that the source is not Allah, that the caller is a magician or that the caller receives from shaytan rather than Allah in order to radically abolish this call just exactly as what is happening to you Mohamed.
The response of the ayah that Allah Abrogates what is thrown by shaytan is the physical act of renewing the call thru a different Messenger or Prophet as well as abolishes all obstacles and distortions preventing people from understanding, accepting and listening to the word of Allah.
Again on the word tamana which is translated in the Ayah here as recite. May Allah reward the translator, however, if we say recite then how a prophet who does not even have a book be reciting the word of Allah. The word tamana here is to wish. In simple format, the Ayah is saying when the Messenger or the Prophet carries out his duties of calling people to Allah while wishing of course for them to believe and that his endeavor become successful, satan who has nothing to do except to derive people astray, obstructs and hinders the achievement of his wish. A proof of this is that at the end of the Ayah Allah Didn’t use again the word umnia (wish), but rather here Allah Used Ayah which is sign or verse. Can u see now how the line of sequence is going?
A more comprehensive part here, is that while the Messneger or the prophet is carrying out his Dawa duty, certainly he wishes (as expressed by the Ayah) for his effort to bear positive fruit. Shyatan comes and disturbs this wish or hope by making him feel desperate and frustrated, by making him loose hope that people will believe or that his effort will be successful in any way. But Allah supports the Messenger thru various means and establishes His signs thru those who believe.
Allah u Akbar.
Alhamdulelah who has guided us for this and if it was not for Allah we wouldnt have been guided.