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for Friends are non-Muslims - Faith Hope Charity - 01-02-2007
Peace brother :peace:
Quote:Just as our muslim brothers Survivded and Still do in Europe, Russia, and Tukmenistan and Kazakstan
PErsonal encouters with brothers from these areas , They could not Read Salaah openly, or give Azaan, they had no Free access to islamic litreature / quraans
Puppet, I'm not requesting that only Christians be allowed to practice their faith freely & openly, but believers from ALL religions in ALL countries. Correct me if I'm mistaken but the countries (not continent) you mentioned were all communist when Muslims (& others) were treated that way, right?
Quote:In the above scenario, Faith lies inside a persons mind and heart and soul
Yes, but the freedom to express/practice your beliefs lies on the outside.
Quote:If a person is true to his faith then in these circumstances unfortunately they have to practise silently, for fear of being victimised
Easier said than done!
Ideally, no one should fear for their life or be victimised for their choice of religion. It's a real shame.
Quote:not shout out from Roof tops I have renonunced islam
Converts tend to stay low key... for obvious reasons. Many coverts write books & teach seminars though (usually under a pseudo name).
Quote:SO i dont buy your argument
Okie dokie!
for Friends are non-Muslims - Faith Hope Charity - 01-03-2007
G'day my favourite Atheist (sorry JD).
I'll keep this short & sweet :)
I have to ask, what evidence can anyone share to demonstrate that in fact, Jesus <b>is</b> Gods’ <b>S</b>on sent to earth?
2 things: miracles & prophecy.
There it sits, creationism in 2 short poetic chapters. There is no indication that we can ever know anything more about the most significant event in human history and all indications are that as more fossils are found, as scientific tools become more sophisticated and exacting, evolution is going to be more and more supported and defined.
We don't interpret the creation account in Genesis in a literalistic sense (as opposed to literal & spiritual - allegorial, moral & anagogical). There is so much profundity in Genesis, you wouldn't believe it! When you approach the Bible with pre-conceived ideas, you're never going to understand its message.
The Church does not cancel out theistic evolution. If the <i>theory</i> of evolution is ever proven, it won't affect our religion one bit.
Most people don't like incontrovertible truths especially if it removes from them their comfort zone. Most people prefer to believe in gods and spirits and heavens and hells because it comforts them.
Hmmm... please allow me to put it in my own words: The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God & for God; and God never ceases to draw man to Himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for (CCC 27).
that most believe they are going to heaven should tell you something about why they believe as they do.
I'm glad you said most & not all, because Catholics commit the unforgivable sin of presumption if they presume they're guaranteed a place in Heaven.
Not one single verifiable shred of evidence that a god exists (and even an argument that states that if there were proof, it would defeat his requirement for pure faith), and in fact, a very youthful science that shows more and more every day that a god isn't even <i>needed</i> for reality to exist... god theories crumble quickly under the light of scientific knowledge.
God exists. You & I both know that. I choose to enter into real intimacy with Him, you don't. Faith is not whether we believe in God, but rather do we believe God.
There are two worldviews: the one that establishes reality as all encompassing and has no need for the supernatural realm. This is the "rational" (within the bounds of reason exclusively) worldview.
That's not rationality but rather convenience. Face it, there is a God & it's not you!!!
The other view, the theistic view, asserts that reality requires a supernatural causation; thus, the supernatural --and less diplomatic sounding-- "irrational" (outside the bounds of reason exclusively) worldview.
Man is by nature & vocation a religious being. Coming from God, going toward God, man lives a fully human life only if he freely lives by his bond with God. When he listens to the message of creation and to the voice of conscience, man can arive at certainty about the existence of God, the cause and the end of everything (CCC 44, 46). Rational enough for you?
For myself, I don't conceive of my atheism as a belief as much as I conceive it as a conclusion based on the asserted models out there and the lack of evidence to support those assertions. As an example, one can't really consider oneself as having the "belief that Santa doesn't exist". It's just a fact-- Santa doesn't exist, and only those who would assert he does are required to support the claim with evidence.
Here's another example: Let's say I grew up never knowing my dad, Johnny. I've never seen Johnny, I've never spoken to Johnny, I've never touched Johnny, I've never smelled Johnny. I have absolutely no sense perception of Johnny whatsoever. But my mom constantly talks about Johnny. She gives me a gift every Christmas & says Johnny sent it. I come home from work & she tells me Johnny rang earlier to speak to me. I receive an email & it's signed "Love Johnny". What's going on in my mind? Is Johnny just a figure of my imagination? Or does he truly exist? Hmmm... Let's pretend for argument's sake that Johnny is God, my mother is the Catholic Church, the gift is salvation, the phone call is prayer, the email is the Holy Bible. Get the picture? I am a creation of my father (& Father).
Theists acknowledge that god(s) is /are ultimately incomprehensible. If you cannot understand him, then how do you understand what he expects of you? This is a good example of a self-contradictory assertion, although you may not see it that way.
It's very hard for me to talk to you about this because you don't have a clue what the foundation of Christianity is (despite what you may think). Although we can never grasp the infinity of God's Perfection, we can learn something about Him, and we can deepen our knowledge by pondering on what He has told us of His Perfection. Remember, Jesus is the "Word of God" - God's mental Word of Himself. Everything God <i>wanted</i> us to know, He revealed through His Son. Our knowledge is not comphrehensive. We are on a need to know basis, so to speak.
Given that this would be such a great life if existence conformed to our wishes, isn't it much harder to face the cold-hearted truths of reality when life <i>doesn't</i> conform to our desires?
The former is Atheism & the latter is Religion, right?
The evidence leaves us as responsible for our own destiny, the arbiters of justice (or lack thereof), always responsible for the kind of world we live in.
We are responsible for our own destiny. Catholics don't believe in pre-destination.
<i>Are you aware that science has proven every single human on earth is descended from one woman - formally known as Eve???
</i>
I’ve seen nothing to support that claim.
Google it! While you're at it, do a search on "Intelligent Design" too - the scientific research they didn't want you to know about ;)
What do you remember before you were born? Anything? No, of course not. It’s pretty self evident, pre-natal and post mortem are indistinguishable from one another.
I don't remember anything before I reached the age of reason. That's not the point! The second God infuses a soul into a person, it never ceases to exist.
As to the rest of your paragraph, you’re speaking of “feelings”, and a host of non-material concepts including emotions.
All the poetry about feelings and spirit and so on -- reside only in the brain. Remove it, and away it all goes. All of it. Even belief in gods.
Now you demonstrate the spiritual source, which you assert is the actual reason emotions exist and disassemble my case, please.
I wasn't talking about feelings/emotions at all. Humans have a conscience as well as intellect & free-will - found in the spiritual source - the immortal soul. That what sets us apart from other animals.
the theist is in a psychological dilemma of superiority/inferiority -- they are so vaunted by their gods that the entire realm of existence was created exclusively for them, but they are so unworthy that they are but worms in the sight of their deities.
No no no! You have it all wrong! Look, if it weren't for the Incarnation, then maybe you'd be onto something.
Pascal's Wager-- the underlying threat of the theistic argument-- "Gamble that there is a god on the chance he will not send you to an eternity of torture."
I'm not a gambler. I don't love God because I fear hell. I don't love God because I want to go to paradise. My love for God is simply my response to His unconditional & everlasting love for me.
a. What if you have chosen the wrong god? You will spend an eternity apart from your “real” god for making such an egregious error
There's only one God.
b. "Betting" on god displays prideful ego and might anger god, and you might spend eternity apart from him for making such an egregious error
It's not a game you clown :D
c. God might prefer courage of one's convictions instead of cowardice and self-deceit, in which case you might spend eternity apart from him for making such an egregious error
You need to read Jesus' parables.
d. What if the gods deplore such self-serving narcissism and instead embraces the atheist for not succumbing to threats of a human nature? In that case you might spend eternity apart from him for making such an egregious error.
Cut it out!
You know what... there are no Atheists in Heaven or Hell. Do you know why?
e. What if the gods are revolted by the very suggestion that there is something like an "eternal punishment"? In that case you might spend eternity apart from him for making such an egregious error.
No one spoke about hell more han Jesus Christ, the Son of God, did. Don't fool yourself into believing that hell doesn't exist. When the Virgin Mary appeared to the 3 children at Fatima, she was crying. She was so sad because of the numerous souls that chose the evil path on earth & ended up in hell. Consider it a warning - haha!
Your comments are couched in terms of using the Bible to prove the Bible is true.
You're a former Bible Christian who doesn't accept & honor Sacred Scripture & Sacred Tradition with equal sentiment of devotion & reverence. True or false?
But empirically we have progressed in our science and technology to see farther and farther, deeper and deeper, and there's no reason to assume it won't continue.
I wanna tell you a funny joke - please laugh :lol:
One day a group of Darwinian scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one Darwinian to go and tell Him that they were done with Him. The Darwinian walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost." God listened very patiently and kindly to the man. After the Darwinian was done talking, God said, "Very well, how about this? Let's say we have a man-making contest." To which the Darwinian happily agreed. God added,
"Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam." The Darwinian said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt. God looked at him and said, "No, no, no. You go get your own dirt!!!!"
You’re being dishonest. The three Abrahamic faiths are relatively recent in humans reign on the planet. We’re obviously here. We’ve obviously evolved.
Speak for yourself. I don't even like bananas - LOL! The Aborigines, who are the most ancient human inhibitants (& decendents of Adam & Eve) believe in God (their own version). Religion has always existed. It's getting a little out of hand now but that's more of a reflection on us than God.
As I noted in my prior post, morality is both transitory and subjective.
Pity it's self-defeating!
I wouldn't set up a test for my children that was impossible for them to pass, purposely tempt them, and when they did fail it I wouldn't curse my children, and their children, and their children and their children and...
The N/T is hidden in the O/T & the O/T is revealed in the N/T. I don't even know where to start! Basically, God's greatest work isn't Creation but Redemption! It all makes sense when you piece the puzzle together.
I wouldn't drown them all.
It has to do with cleansing. It's typology. Prefigures Baptism.
I wouldn't be the general of some of them and order some of them to put others to the sword -- but keep the female virgins for their pleasure.
Are we still talking about Catholicism???
I wouldn't create a Satan and allow him any power over my children.
God can't create evil. Lucifer is a fallen angel. Evil is like darkness or coldness. It's the absence of something - lack of goodness = evil; lack of light = darkness; lack of heat = coldness.
I wouldn't create a hell and condemn my children to it forever, even if they did call me names and spit on me and hurt me or didn't acknowledge me.
We condemn ourselves to hell. The definition of hell is "being seperated from God." The choice is ours!
I wouldn't allow vials to be poured out carrying disease and death and destruction.
This is a hard one to talk about! Ummm... all I'll say for now is... God will not permit evil unless we gain a greater good out of it. In this imperfect world, we must take the bad on board with the good, but it's temporary. The Son of God became Man to unite His Divinity with our humanity. Through Jesus Christ, God took on human suffering... & conquered it! I know, I know, I'm all by myself on this one (Islamic forum). But if only you guys could see the beauty & awe in this profound truth. It's life-changing... literally!
The list of things this "loving father" does is horrifying in the extreme. You may think that bashes him, but I didn't write the book that describes him doing such things, remember?
I usually charge for a Theology lecture but your first lesson's free :P
The whole Bible is a marriage contract. It's the manual of unconditional love! When God's people continually disobeyed Him, He remained with them. In the covenant between God & mankind, one side constantly violates it, the other remains faithful & always will. When Adam & Eve sinned, God punished them but promised a redeemer; when Cain killed Abel, God punished Cain but protected him. When Moses sinned, God punished him but kept his promises, when God's chosen people, Israel, sinned over & over, God punished them time & time again, but He never abandonded them... etc etc etc.
Great. It would appear that there’s nothing “morally” wrong with selling child and making a few bucks.
No idea where you came up with that conclusion!
Until that happens, and we all know it won't unless Jesus actually does come back
Jesus never left us or this world. But yes, you will see Him face to face at the end of time.
then as long as we are alive evolution remains the most supported, most logical, most demonstrable paradigm by which we can explain the existence of life on Earth
Turn it up! You weren't there when apes became humans! Have we all of a sudden stopped evolving? If I'm ever blessed to have children, will they have more fingers? Wings to fly? A larger brain capacity? In my opinion, we have evolved in nothing but stupidity!
I think you’re an intelligent woman who demonstrates with every post that you have a passion for your belief and can express it better than anyone on this board.
It's not the time nor the place for compliments. We're at war here - LOL!
Thanks RT! I got more than I bargained for when I registered on these boards. You're always one of the highlights of my day :)
However, I have no reason to believe that Zeus will condemn me to everlasting torment for not succumbing to what he has not provided evidence to support. Thanks Zeus.
Just be the best Atheist you can be & make Epicurus proud! But please don't lose the Christian virtues you were raised with. Hopefully, the momentum of Christianity which is carrying you along will inevitably spend itself in this or a future generation.
Actually, I’ve been rushing this response before the moderators block my log-in.
:( :( :(
If you get blocked, I plan to go on strike - hehe!
and this god then inspired a book but did not allow the original to last in case the condemned to damnation by definition humans worship those texts... and allowed copies of copies to multiply so that huge civilizations would clash with one another over interpretations...
I'm not saying we're better than other Christians, but today's Catholic Bibles (the ones with the Church's tick of approval) match the manuscripts of the first few centuries AD. I guarantee you that the translation of the Bible I use is more identical to St Jerome's Vulgate (4th Century AD) then my remastered version of Aristotle's "Nicomachean Ethics" compared with earlier copies of the text.
Please don't blame God for human error.
and this god then comes down to earth as a human to act as a mediator to experience human weakness and pain and sin
Jesus didn't experience sin in His Perfect, Sinless human nature. Indeed He was surrounded by it.
that he created in the first place anyway
Sin does not have its origin with God. Someone pass me a drill, please!
and he's letting billions upon billions of people suffer
Why is it when something goes wrong in the world, we blame God, but when something good happens, we pat ourselves on the back?
You know what's weird? St Rafqa asked God to grant her participation in Christ's suffering. She wanted to suffer freely with Christ. She prayed non-stop for a stigmata. She suffered so patiently & offered it all up to God. Her story is so inspirational.
I'm not saying we should all follow her example (I wish I had her fortitude though), but I'm just trying to point out how the power of God's love can move us.
Just a side note - we see stars forming today by the way, in the Pleiades-- various stages of stars being formed are quite visible.
I sing for joy at the work of His Hands!
Ignorance is bliss
Being ignorant is okay. Remining ignorant is not okay!
<i>"Our hearts are restless, O Lord, until they rest in Thee" (St Augustine).</i>
for Friends are non-Muslims - Teh_Curious - 01-04-2007
wow huge post F H C :o
to add a few points and opinions :P
Quote:Not one single verifiable shred of evidence that a god exists (and even an argument that states that if there were proof, it would defeat his requirement for pure faith), and in fact, a very youthful science that shows more and more every day that a god isn't even needed for reality to exist... god theories crumble quickly under the light of scientific knowledge.
to be honest the more and more scientists learn the more convinced i am that god does exist look at the entire universe, galaxies and solar systems, planets and the enviroment here on earth. Things just seem a little too perfect to be random. (i can clarify this point if i need to it will just be long)
Quote:One day a group of Darwinian scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one Darwinian to go and tell Him that they were done with Him. The Darwinian walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost." God listened very patiently and kindly to the man. After the Darwinian was done talking, God said, "Very well, how about this? Let's say we have a man-making contest." To which the Darwinian happily agreed. God added,
"Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam." The Darwinian said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt. God looked at him and said, "No, no, no. You go get your own dirt!!!!"
ROFL thats a classic
Quote:I wouldn't create a Satan and allow him any power over my children.
God can't create evil. Lucifer is a fallen angel. Evil is like darkness or coldness. It's the absence of something - lack of goodness = evil; lack of light = darkness; lack of heat = coldness.
how do you understand the nature of good if there is no comparison?
just my 2c
for Friends are non-Muslims - Faith Hope Charity - 01-04-2007
Hey Aussie,
Quote:wow huge post F H C
It's actually the condensed version :D
Quote:how do you understand the nature of good if there is no comparison?
Without getting too philosophical, I, as a Catholic, don't believe anyone is created bad. God, who is Goodness itself, cannot but create good beings. Lucifer, who was created good, fell from grace (by his own free-will), which is why St Michael the Archangel cast him into hell. Evil cannot exist in heaven. We have a <i>fallen</i> nature not a bad one. Evil is simply the absence of good. Boy is this world lacking goodness! Satan is roaming the globe as we speak seeking the ruin of souls!
I hope that makes sense.
Cheers Mate :thumb:
for Friends are non-Muslims - Ruggedtouch - 01-09-2007
G'day my favourite Atheist (sorry JD).
Hope I don’t cause you to change your mind.
I'll keep this short & sweet
I just can’t shut up long enough to do that.
2 things: miracles & prophecy.
So-called “miracles” or supernatural occurrences are just that. Please provide testable evidence that any “supernatural” occurrence has ever, in fact happened. What you may not realize is that the assertion of “supernatural” suggests a different realm, that cannot be tested, cannot be accessed and cannot be quantified or qualified and is therefore no different from describing “nothing”.
I don’t explain how anyone could do miracles. An eccentric use of science is usually short lived. But the miracles of the bible? Absurdities by definition (else they wouldn't be considered miraculous)? Those are believed for thousands of years regardless or in spite of any evidence.
Everything outside of logic <i>is</i> suspect -- but where we differ is, I apply the proper label of illogic to the illogical, and work to bring it into the realm of the logical, if it at all can be done – using the methods of science. Now you on the other hand assert an entire other realm to explain the illogical. But you cannot demonstrate this other realm, you admit not only that you do not know how this other realm operates, but you admit also that you cannot <i>ever</i> know how that realm operates, as its author is infinitely beyond you. Yet this undemonstrated, non-perceived, unsupported other realm is the causation of all logic. So in order to find your own answer, you accept what you already admit is an irrational non-answer as the answer.
We don't interpret the creation account in Genesis in a literalistic sense (as opposed to literal & spiritual - allegorial, moral & anagogical). There is so much profundity in Genesis, you wouldn't believe it! When you approach the Bible with pre-conceived ideas, you're never going to understand its message.
Which words are gospel and which words are not? Does this related to specific letters as well? For instance, is English verified as a proper language by which these gospel words are delivered (I believe the Qu'ran is considered corrupt by bfundamentalists the moment it is translated out of Arabic). Can one sentence be gospel, the next not, the next two yes, the rest no? What is the standard by which this is judged?
I think you can see I'm being facetious here, but it really is the underlying context of your approach. Sure, you can pick and choose whatever you want, and think you are right -- but you have no baseline by which to assess whether or not you are interpretating things correctly.
And that means your moral and ethical foundation is, by definition, on tenuous ground.
The Church does not cancel out theistic evolution. If the theory of evolution is ever proven, it won't affect our religion one bit.
Of course it will. The science and the fact of evolution completely dismantles the creation assertion.
I noted earlier that one thing Theism has truly exalted is it's fear of <i>knowledge</i>.
Most of Theism's history is written in this misology, and I’ve recounted here before and enough to not detail it yet again. But theism <i>cannot flourish</i> in the face of knowledge -- honest, true, supported-by-evidence, knowledge-- because the universe tells us so many things quite different from what the religions claim and promise.
Now there will be rebuttals lauding Theism’s role in continuing to keep sciences alive and yes, there is truly that aspect. Because human nature is such that we pursue the knowledge anyway, even in the face of eternal damnation, as the allegory tells it (and it was done in a vain and ultimately failed attempt to unify the claims of the bible with the evidence around us, such as the noble attempts of Kepler remains as testimony).
And there will be those who will say that one can interpret the universe in a way that supports a god, and yes, one can do that if one wishes to.
Simply remember the foundations of Genesis--
The curse of <i>all humanity</i> for the actions of the "first" man and woman to use their free will to gain knowledge-- The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil
Ever notice that in the Genesis story Yahweh doesn't bother to tell A&E (not the cable station), there would be consequences of massive -- in fact -- eternal proportions (we don't get the "Oh, yeah ummm- by the way, there is a Hell, hmmm' okaay?" information until waaay too late)? Ever notice that, bereft of knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the fruit of the tree, they can't tell what constitutes a "good" or "bad" behavior in the first place?
Hmmm... please allow me to put it in my own words: The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God & for God; and God never ceases to draw man to Himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for (CCC 27).
Not true at all. Support this with proof that we are implanted with monotheism or any idea of gods at all. Babies seem to be blank slates, devoid of anything but instinct (eat, defecate, sleep, that sort of thing). They also display curiosity and experiment with their environment, so they seem far more in tune with the processes of science as opposed to those of faith. If you raise a baby in a Hindu culture, it will almost certainly embrace Hinduism; if in a Christian home, Christianity. All theistic beliefs seem to be externally brought to human beings, none of them display inherent hardwiring. If you raise a child devoid of god concepts in the middle of a remote jungle, the child will not arbitrarily and spontaneously generate theism.
I am not a theist, I am an atheist and your statement that presumes we are implanted with a god spirit requires it to be supported or discarded as mere speculation (and you're entitled to speculation – only I am.)
I'm glad you said most & not all, because Catholics commit the unforgivable sin of presumption if they presume they're guaranteed a place in Heaven.
Well… at least you’re not inclined to car bomb people as a way of promoting your ideology. That's a plus!
God exists. You & I both know that. I choose to enter into real intimacy with Him, you don't. Faith is not whether we believe in God, but rather do we believe God.
I don’t know that at all, (that god(s) exist.). In fact, I believe just the opposite. I know you think this, but where is there any evidence of it? It's poetic, beautiful, and very nice, but it doesn't jibe with the facts. In fact, as man has become more technological, the incidence of god being involved in man's earthly dealings has diminished concurrently. As his morality has grown (with definite and horrific backslides), we learn that whatever god deemed worthy of recording in the various "sacred writings", was fairly short of what man was able to evolve on his own. In the realm of ethics and morality, “man”, (not to include all of “man”), kicks god's behind by a far margin.
That's not rationality but rather convenience. Face it, there is a God & it's not you!!!
No, that’s not rationality. For example, When people say they believe in an entity that cannot be seen, cannot be felt, exists outside of the natural realm in an asserted supernatural realm, that has attributes we need to worship but cannot understand or even describe, who lives in eternity in both directions, who can create existence from nothing and is uncreated himself and uses methods and means we can never know or hope to understand, that stands outside proof which is exactly why it's for certain he exists-- I would say that rationality has left the building even before Elvis has..
Man is by nature & vocation a religious being. Coming from God, going toward God, man lives a fully human life only if he freely lives by his bond with God. When he listens to the message of creation and to the voice of conscience, man can arive at certainty about the existence of God, the cause and the end of everything (CCC 44, 46). Rational enough for you?
That’s pure conjecture and completely without corroboration. I repeat the assertions until they fall of their own accord or your argument topples them. If you keep coming at me with "God did it" -- which is what you are basing all of existence on, then I am going to ask the same question of you until you supply an answer that addresses it: <i>Which</i> god, and by what authority is it <i>your</i> god and not a <i>different</i> god. "Because the bible says so" is <i>not</i> a satisfactory answer because one can counter, "Because the Tibetan Book of the Dead says so" with equal authority. These are the rules of engagement, FHC. Nothing more and nothing less.
Here's another example: Let's say I grew up never knowing my dad, Johnny. I've never seen Johnny, I've never spoken to Johnny, I've never touched Johnny, I've never smelled Johnny. I have absolutely no sense perception of Johnny whatsoever. But my mom constantly talks about Johnny. She gives me a gift every Christmas & says Johnny sent it. I come home from work & she tells me Johnny rang earlier to speak to me. I receive an email & it's signed "Love Johnny". What's going on in my mind? Is Johnny just a figure of my imagination? Or does he truly exist? Hmmm... Let's pretend for argument's sake that Johnny is God, my mother is the Catholic Church, the gift is salvation, the phone call is prayer, the email is the Holy Bible. Get the picture? I am a creation of my father (& Father).
Your analogy is flawed. “Johnny”, in your analogy, is not an asserted supernatural entity. Further, why <i>”pretend for argument's sake’</i>? Why pretend at all?
It's very hard for me to talk to you about this because you don't have a clue what the foundation of Christianity is (despite what you may think). Although we can never grasp the infinity of God's Perfection, we can learn something about Him, and we can deepen our knowledge by pondering on what He has told us of His Perfection. Remember, Jesus is the "Word of God" - God's mental Word of Himself. Everything God wanted us to know, He revealed through His Son. Our knowledge is not comphrehensive. We are on a need to know basis, so to speak.
Oh come on, FHC. Such are the standard arrogant claims spoken by all religionists. "I have the truth! Everyone else is <i>wrong!</i>" Sure, and maybe what you assert as divine can be divined (in which case it would belong to the natural world). But theists <i>insist</i> the supernatural does <i>not</i> belong in the natural realm and to that the materialist says, “Okay, then by definition it is not rational and if it it not rational, knowable, extant, etc. then it is indistinguishable from nothingness. Hence, why believe it is true?"
Where do you see perfection? War, pestilence, disease, Children dying in uncontrollable agony… God could wash away all sin if he wished to, he just doesn’t. I wonder why?
The former is Atheism & the latter is Religion, right?
Yes. religious people are comforted by the growth of their religious views. It dictates their choices and their politics. It addresses the irrational need for and "us vs. them" dynamic, and because religious doctrine is irrational by definition (i.e., nothing outside of the natural world is rational, it must be irrational) -- an irrational response to an irrational claim is the norm.
Cheers!
We are responsible for our own destiny. Catholics don't believe in pre-destination.
Then why believe in a god and a savior? That is the point of the faith and the promise of Jesus in the first place! And my overwhelming experience is that believers find it <i>very easy</i> to believe because the dynamic of the belief system makes you feel good about choosing "correctly" and it addresses your concerns about mortality. It just doesn't back them up with any authority.
The price to pay for a world that leaves us humans to reap what we sow is a world and a universe that isn't a very embracing place. It's not comforting to confront eternal mortality-- it's far more inviting to embrace immortal life. And from here, you know everything I have to say on that subject
Google it! While you're at it, do a search on "Intelligent Design" too - the scientific research they didn't want you to know about
”Intelligent Design? Sorry, no.
I don't remember anything before I reached the age of reason. That's not the point! The second God infuses a soul into a person, it never ceases to exist.
What soul? Read my previous post about the “soul”. We have evolved a sense of survival, it is <i>evident</i> in almost every animal, and the methods to which we go to survive get more complex as -- surprise! -- the higher towards sentience you go. At the same time, we also see vestiges of self-sacrifice for the greater good, just like a lowly bee will sting an invader and die, for the greater good of the hive.
Also, why would god create mankind out of dust, give him sentience, a special place in the universe, and then give animals such similar abilities—just at a lower “wattage”? Yet more confusion, making it seem as though we evolved our characteristics from animals similar to us, who share 99.9% of our DNA, instead of humans being qualitatively different. Why would a god do this, particularly when the bible says man will have dominion over all beasts? What is more likely, that god purposely made these similarities so to confuse and confound us, or the story was set down within the limited parameters of knowledge of the natural world that existed at the time?
Nature has preprogrammed successful animals with a desire to survive, and once you add our ability to have a sentient perception of death, you have a formula for a more deep seated fear (at least, one that can be expressed by doing something more than just fleeing, like all other animals do). And I don’t mind telling you, I have a deep seated fear of death within certain circumstances
I wasn't talking about feelings/emotions at all. Humans have a conscience as well as intellect & free-will - found in the spiritual source - the immortal soul. That what sets us apart from other animals.
Free will under a god paradigm is a hopeless failure unfortunately. It cannot be without reducing god in some way, and theists insist god is omniscient and perfect (how perfection creates something less than perfection-- existence-- is always unanswered as well). One cannot assert an all-knowing god and then say "but we are not robots"-- because god knows every choice we can make and every choice we will make. While there is an <i>illusion that we are not robots, we clearly are from god's perspective. God had arranged the laws of the cosmos so that man's sin, and the evil and oppression that accompanies that sin, actually serves to transform people step-by-step into His character - those who want to be transformed, that is."</i>
This nicely segues to my second point: There is this curious idea that all of this evil exists only to teach us how to be better, but then -at least in the Christian paradigm- "better" can only come through Jesus and no matter how much evil is there to "perfect us" (!) we will always fail miserably.
So it's useless to argue that the bad exists to make us good. Of what purpose then are there "natural evils"? How many fires wiping out cities have we needed to learn to "be good" to one another? Do we really need mudslides eradicating villages and snuffing out the lives of children just so we can rescue some of them and "be good"?
And so the next argument is, "Well, this is the way existence is!" Except that argument has no reply against: "Yes, but why does god create it "the way it is" when he just as easily could create it different?" And back to the same answer: Evil exists to make us good-- a wonder to behold!
Except... we didn't create evil, god did with Lucifer, long before Man was created... <LOOP= IF 10=Y GOTO 1>
We simply don't need "evil" to be good. We are generally good, far more often than we are evil. But evil perplexes us-- why <i>should</i> there be tornadoes and natural disasters that take our loved ones and neighbors? And so, we invent gods in the sky, and get into sweet little subtle feedback loops that really make no sense except they calm our emotional requirement to have something to hang the blame on-- even if we create something "perfect", claim it created everything, but then cringe that it might have created evil, so loop back that responsibility on ourselves.
Or-- existence is natural and things happen that are good to our perspective, or bad to our perspective, and each day we choose a path unfettered by anything but the laws of nature.
No no no! You have it all wrong! Look, if it weren't for the Incarnation, then maybe you'd be onto something.
You’re the one claiming supernaturalism and <i>I’ve</i> got wrong?
I'm not a gambler. I don't love God because I fear hell. I don't love God because I want to go to paradise. My love for God is simply my response to His unconditional & everlasting love for me.
As noted previously, the dynamic of the belief system makes you feel good about choosing "correctly" and it addresses your concerns about mortality. It just doesn't back them up with any authority.
There's only one God.
Not according to a rather substantial segment of the planet.
It's not a game you clown
The entire god question is a pretty important one I'd say. For me, it's not something to just roll over and believe because if you truly dig deep into what allows you to believe, you will find there is no clear reason to believe as you do-- the differing paradigms out there do not make a single case that rises above the others. In other words, there is no reason to believe Christianity over Islam over Buddhism over Judaism over Hinduism.
You need to read Jesus' parables.
I have. The problem is, without external corroboration to convince anyone they’re true, how do you separate truth from fiction?
Cut it out!
I’m going to make you more knowledgeable whether you like it or not!
You know what... there are no Atheists in Heaven or Hell. Do you know why?
No. I don’t know why that is but I’m sure you’re going to tell me. Just make sure your answer is verifiable and testable.
No one spoke about hell more han Jesus Christ, the Son of God, did. Don't fool yourself into believing that hell doesn't exist. When the Virgin Mary appeared to the 3 children at Fatima, she was crying. She was so sad because of the numerous souls that chose the evil path on earth & ended up in hell. Consider it a warning - haha!
Why is religion so keen on threats? I do readily embrace the admission of Theists that Scripture is not understandable by man, that heavens and hells are posited with no underlying basis to believe them. What you conclude is the Word of an all mighty, etc god, I conclude is mythology and fable. How that is pertinent is thus: your <i>entire worldview</i> comes from a book you readily admit is incomprehensible to you, whereas I note that that which is readily admitted as incomprehensible is... <i>incomprehensible</i>. I don't then build a worldview on that which I admit is impossible to understand.
You're a former Bible Christian who doesn't accept & honor Sacred Scripture & Sacred Tradition with equal sentiment of devotion & reverence. True or false?
False.
I wanna tell you a funny joke - please laugh
One day a group of Darwinian scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one Darwinian to go and tell Him that they were done with Him. The Darwinian walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost." God listened very patiently and kindly to the man. After the Darwinian was done talking, God said, "Very well, how about this? Let's say we have a man-making contest." To which the Darwinian happily agreed. God added,
"Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam." The Darwinian said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt. God looked at him and said, "No, no, no. You go get your own dirt!!!!"
Mildly amusing. I have a counter story - bear with me for a moment -
The scientist creates a maze for his rats to navigate. There are two exits to the maze. At the end of the short path lies a bowl of poisoned food. At the end of the long, hard path lays a never ending feast. The scientist already knows that most of the rats will die, because he is omniscient. But he still carries out the experiment. Perhaps he didn’t want the rats to die, but in implementing the experiment despite his knowledge that they would, <i>he gives tacit approval to the end result</i>. Obviously we can’t argue that our scientist couldn’t do anything about it, because of that tricky omnipotence that he possesses. If he still wanted to grant the rats the freedom to choose their path, but didn’t want most of them to die in the process, it would have been well within our scientist’s ability to alter the experiment.
But he didn’t.
What the god environment does is illustrate that only by pursuing experimentation, using tools available to expand perception (science), would us mortal creatures ever stand a chance at detecting/discerning the force behind our existence. What we learn is that supernatural hypotheses, (religious dogma in this case) removes us further and further from our goal, or any hope of achieving our goal of coming to terms with our existence. The term “supernatural” essentially defines out of science what is knowable and understandable. By adhering to the theistic paradigm, you can never know. You already "know" what you need to know, and that's contained in one of many “holy texts”. I find it interesting that human nature pursues deeper than the superfluous non-answer. We pursue knowledge. Allegorically speaking, it's both the blessing and curse of our nature-- which is why the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" is a very apropos symbol of eternal sin.
Even if the "gods" chose to intervene out of pity for us poor creatures hopelessly spinning wild conjectural theories about who and what we are, and where we came from, what would these gods tell us? That our existence is predetermined? Maybe they would tell us that all our dogmatic proclamations were utterly unfounded, and we worshiped beings who are just as constrained to the unalterable laws of reality as we are, even if there is a difference in dimensions, and space/time continuum.
Again, we are left to conjecture what this god would or would not think of itself and “its” own motives, but do we think of ourselves as godlike? I realize that some people certainly would, but I hope that we collectively would not. I don't think scientists culture bacteria in petri dishes all the while thinking they are somehow gods over their various bacterium. If anything, they are completely disinterested in the bacterium except as how it pertains to whatever experiment they are pursuing; in which case, perhaps "god" has finished his experiment with us, and we are relegated to some dusty back shelf, allowed to simply mold.
Speak for yourself. I don't even like bananas - LOL! The Aborigines, who are the most ancient human inhibitants (& decendents of Adam & Eve) believe in God (their own version). Religion has always existed. It's getting a little out of hand now but that's more of a reflection on us than God.
Many ancient peoples had beliefs in gods, spirits and all sorts of superstitions which were used to explain phenomena they didn’t understand. The Abrahamic god of the desert is more recent but no less a vehicle for superstition. Share the knowledge why <i>your</i> god is extant to the exclusion of other, more ancient gods. When you can share that knowledge in a way that would verify your claim that you in some way attain supremacy over the Dayaks, then you'd have some cleats in the turf. But it's all gainsay. The <i>only</i> thing we have ("we" meaning those who don't embrace your particular theology) is your assertion that your spiritual knowledge is somehow better. You like to drop it in my lap that there are "different tools" to show these different assertions, but hey-- why don't you show <i>me</i> the tool that places your beliefs in supremacy to all others?
The N/T is hidden in the O/T & the O/T is revealed in the N/T. I don't even know where to start! Basically, God's greatest work isn't Creation but Redemption! It all makes sense when you piece the puzzle together.
It is not the skeptic who asserts the validity of the passages, we only use them to assess whether the theist's claims of their validity is accurate. In terms of piecing the puzzle together, the faith of others has given them different pieces of the puzzle. Therein lies the problem of this whole issue. The faith of the al-Qaida, the faith of the suicide bomber, the head chopper-offer... etc. etc... Why did they do that? Because they had discovered the "truth" in their quest for understanding... their faith told them so.
It has to do with cleansing. It's typology. Prefigures Baptism.
Drowning is cleansing? In any other circumstance it would be premeditated murder.
Are we still talking about Catholicism???
Indirectly.
God can't create evil. Lucifer is a fallen angel. Evil is like darkness or coldness. It's the absence of something - lack of goodness = evil; lack of light = darkness; lack of heat = coldness.
To the mats, then.
Quite the paradox. God can be quite the hard as….. and quite the utter contradiction.
Well, let's look at the source material, why don't we (KJV):
<i>Genesis 2</i>
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
[Commentary: God has created the plants (which would include trees) and then creates man. Then he plants the garden and places man there. We on the same page so far?]
<i>16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:</i>
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
[Commentary: Very clearly here we can see that <i>evil already exists</i> else it cannot be a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Man at this point in the narrative has <i>nothing to do nor any knowledge of</i> either good <i>or</i> evil. Hence evil <i>must</i> predate Man in order for there to be a choice.]
<i>Genesis 3</i>
1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
________________________________________
Now we have two questions:
1. Does this serpent lie, deceive, and tempt ("yes" to all three)-- and are <i>any</i> of these behaviors sinful? To answer this, apply them to the model of perfection, God. Can this God...
Lie? No, it would be sinful of God to lie and God by definition is sinless.
Deceive? No, it would be sinful of God to deceive and God by definition is sinless.
Tempt? Well, perhaps towards good, but the context here is towards disobedience and thus would be sinful, and of course it would be sinful of God to tempt and God by definition is sinless.
So we can agree that the behaviors of the serpent are pretty much sinful and none of them could be applied to the perfection of God within the narrative.
Onto our second question:
Exactly <i>who</i> (or what) is this serpent? It can only be one of three things:
A. An actual flesh and blood serpent
B. Satan
C. God
If it is A., and if it sins (and it does) then sin has been introduced into the world by a flesh and blood creation of god, and man has not brought it into the world.
If it is B. and if Satan sins, then once again evil has been brought into the world by an agent other than Man (although not of flesh and blood)
If it is C. (and actually, as the Author of Everything then Everything is ultimately of God) then we have a very deep problem, and a nature that totally self-destructs as God is both perfect and imperfect at the same time (this is the core "proof" of God not existing that leads to an atheistic conclusion-- for all those endless demands that atheists prove that a nothing doesn't not exist, it is only this-- that God is a senseless mass of contradictory nonsense that can establish any sort of "proof". A senseless mass of contradictory nonsense is indistinguishable from "nothingness"). For arguments sake, let's not head down C at all since in question 1 we have eliminated God being able to sin.
Now, left with choice A or B: I have heard the argument (and it's not a bad one actually): "Well, nowhere does it say God told the serpent he couldn't be evil and it was the disobedience that is the sin, not the act of evil."
To this I would point out that if sin (disobedience) is <i>not</i> evil, then it must be good, and if it is good, it cannot be an act of disobedience, and once again we're in a feedback loop.
But let's even concede this point and see where it leads:
What we are left with is this: Evil is of God -- no way around that -- hence, God is all good and all evil at the same time and is completely self-contradictory. Sin is the failure of the test -- but if sin is evil, and man was kept from knowing what good and evil are (only the tree could supply that knowledge and he was told not to indulge), then he is precluded from being able to pass the test. God must know this, and God, being omniscient, must know which way Man would choose. Hence, free will is an illusion.
Hence, things are the way they are because God wants them precisely this way and this includes a nasty and capricious nature which will kill people via floods and tornadoes and fires and earthquakes etc., none of which are <i>essential</i> to a world created by a God. He could have just as easily made it otherwise, he just didn't.
We condemn ourselves to hell. The definition of hell is "being seperated from God." The choice is ours!
No. Hell is an eternity of not very nice things… and it’s very hot.
This is a hard one to talk about! Ummm... all I'll say for now is... God will not permit evil unless we gain a greater good out of it. In this imperfect world, we must take the bad on board with the good, but it's temporary. The Son of God became Man to unite His Divinity with our humanity. Through Jesus Christ, God took on human suffering... & conquered it! I know, I know, I'm all by myself on this one (Islamic forum). But if only you guys could see the beauty & awe in this profound truth. It's life-changing... literally!
Regarding what god will or will not allow, how do you know that?
Your faith as to god's wish is very nice, admirable. I have a similar wish for humanity as well, that we continue to evolve towards perfection, or a reasonable facsimile thereof. I believe it's attainable by the growth of science and technology and knowledge while we're alive. I assume you believe it can come post mortem by a god. Either way, everyone here will be dead anyway before it happens, no matter which way it happens.
I usually charge for a Theology lecture but your first lesson's free
The whole Bible is a marriage contract. It's the manual of unconditional love! When God's people continually disobeyed Him, He remained with them. In the covenant between God & mankind, one side constantly violates it, the other remains faithful & always will. When Adam & Eve sinned, God punished them but promised a redeemer; when Cain killed Abel, God punished Cain but protected him. When Moses sinned, God punished him but kept his promises, when God's chosen people, Israel, sinned over & over, God punished them time & time again, but He never abandonded them... etc etc etc.
Unconditional love?
I would argue that you can select science, history, art, etc with abandon but you cannot do the same with divine revelation. Remember I can only accept a claim of regeneration as an inarguable position (unsupported, but not debatable) of the theist, and that means there is no possibility of interpretation on the part of the theist. Please do so (share knowledge of Theology.) Moses for instance, had little cause to misunderstand his mission statement, and if he did, he could always check back to his boss. Care to share your communications with god? If you do, can you support your claim that god communicated directly with you or anyone else?
Forget logic, say those who would advise "searching for spirituality" -- and opt for <i>feelings</i> instead. Well, feelings are the least reliable way to make a solid decision. People feel better when they are comforted, and the god myths are comforting in that they all promise some sort of power over death or suffering. So most of us will opt for any sort of existence after death-- even one that comes with a frightening price tag of eternal punishment (since we rarely believe we will be paying that price tag ourselves), and then comes the belief... without critical analysis at all.
Do not just follow your feelings. Follow logic as well--
If something feels good, investigate it objectively. See if the good feelings are substantiated. You function with your critical faculties on an ongoing basis, and while you can misinterpret some sensory input, for the most part reality adheres to laws that are testable.
Are multiple and competitive religions the mark of Satan trying to muddy the waters? Or are they the mark of humans struggling with concepts and paradigms that evolve? Is the proliferation of Islamic doctrines a supernatural plot to mislead, or do they stand as evidence that religions are inherently flawed, and lead to constant reworking and tinkering to try to make them make sense?
Which is more likely to be the case?
No idea where you came up with that conclusion!
I think the verse provides allowance for it.
Jesus never left us or this world. But yes, you will see Him face to face at the end of time.
Well, the downside to that worldview is that others will want to be the first to see their god(s) return first. There’s no more chilling evidence of that than the Iranian nutbars.
Turn it up! You weren't there when apes became humans! Have we all of a sudden stopped evolving? If I'm ever blessed to have children, will they have more fingers? Wings to fly? A larger brain capacity? In my opinion, we have evolved in nothing but stupidity!
Maybe re-think the above. Unfortunately, your entire premise is terribly flawed. I see this frequently. My suspicion is that you have been coached by religious entities who certainly have a vested interest in placating your desire to believe the religious tales and fables in lieu of hard facts.
Meaning, of course that the apes into human beings nonsense displays a fundamental lack of understanding. Man was never an ape. Man was never descended from an ape. Man and primates shared a common ancestor but branched off in separate directions. That’s not at all uncommon in evolutionary history, by the way, for species to diverge in different directions while sharing a common ancestry.
It's not the time nor the place for compliments. We're at war here - LOL!
Thanks RT! I got more than I bargained for when I registered on these boards. You're always one of the highlights of my day
A thousand pardons effendi if I have said anything to offend you.
In all honesty, I thank you for the stimulating conversation. You’re very good at it.
Just be the best Atheist you can be & make Epicurus proud! But please don't lose the Christian virtues you were raised with. Hopefully, the momentum of Christianity which is carrying you along will inevitably spend itself in this or a future generation.
I think Christian values (tolerance, “turning the other cheek”, etc., and the accepting message (allegedly), of Jesus being supplanted by the hate and intolerance of Islam is doing great harm to humanity.
Alhough, I will note that Christianity (and most Heaven and Hell religions) use fear as a powerful motivational tool. It works, too. Christianity started a bit differently, and would have been an interesting religion if it had stuck to its roots (and now that it is going back to its roots, it's far more palatable), but Christianity would have crapped out if it hadn't been for Constantine winning his campaigns after having a "vision" to slap a cross on the shields of his infantry. There's that dynamic again though -- Constantine wants to be victorious, so he boosts the morale of his men by citing a fierce god will give them victory under "H"is name, and when they win, it seems the prophecy is upheld. Now that entire empire, safe and a lot richer, has a vested interest in being adherents to the religion that won the day.
If you get blocked, I plan to go on strike - hehe!
I know they’re watching and waiting.
I'm not saying we're better than other Christians, but today's Catholic Bibles (the ones with the Church's tick of approval) match the manuscripts of the first few centuries AD. I guarantee you that the translation of the Bible I use is more identical to St Jerome's Vulgate (4th Century AD) then my remastered version of Aristotle's "Nicomachean Ethics" compared with earlier copies of the text.
Whether I agree or disagree doesn’t bring the text any closer to the truth. Absent corroboration, it’s hearsay testimony.
The entire god question is a pretty important one I'd say. For me, it's not something to just roll over and believe because if you truly dig deep into what allows you to believe, you will find there is no clear reason to believe as you do-- the differing paradigms out there do not make a single case that rises above the others. In other words, there is no reason to believe Christianity over Islam over Buddhism over Judaism over Hinduism.
Please don't blame God for human error.
I don’t. Our technology has rewritten human motivation, and that has been for the betterment of all. But it has its costs and one of those costs is that we rely on our technology to an irrational level. We think that science will be able to whip every solution out of its collective ass because we have laser lights and digital technology. In our loss of innocence and simplicity, we risk annihilation from many quarters. And the only thing that keeps it from happening is our growing sense of compassion and decency. Child labor, abuse, involuntary servitude, religious and communistic despots, the treatment of minorities, etc., etc -- all things confronted and recognized as immoral, with no compass from the theistic god.
Jesus didn't experience sin in His Perfect, Sinless human nature. Indeed He was surrounded by it.
His father allows it. Why do you think that is?
Sin does not have its origin with God. Someone pass me a drill, please!
Of course it does. Read my disclosure a few paragraphs back.
Why is it when something goes wrong in the world, we blame God, but when something good happens, we pat ourselves on the back?
You know what's weird? St Rafqa asked God to grant her participation in Christ's suffering. She wanted to suffer freely with Christ. She prayed non-stop for a stigmata. She suffered so patiently & offered it all up to God. Her story is so inspirational.
I'm not saying we should all follow her example (I wish I had her fortitude though), but I'm just trying to point out how the power of God's love can move us.Unfortunately, the perceived power of gods hate can also move us. Move us to do terrible things.
I sing for joy at the work of His Hands!
I applaud the work of scientists and engineers who innovated the mechanisms to give us the stars in our view.
Ultimately though, why a book of god? Why not the message emblazoned across the sky, always before us, unaltered by the corruptive? hand of man? in no single language but understandable by all, even children, even before they can read? Imagine? unaltered, no dispute, clear knowledge that something beyond the natural world communicates with us mere mortals! Why not the words encoded in our minds-- a common hardwired realization not needing external verification but no two people could ever utter a conflicting phrase, just like none of us use our ears to see light (we all use our eyes to see light-- this is hardwired into us). Just a couple of suggestions by a "mere mortal" that escapes the ability of all the collective powers of all the gods ever claimed to have existed...
Ignorance is bliss
Being ignorant is okay. Remining ignorant is not okay! Nicely stated.
Unfortunately, the religious perspectives have been the prime antecedent of 10,000 years of odd rituals, human and animal sacrifice, deistic moral codes, cathedral building, sectarian strife, chants-Gregorian and otherwise, magic beads, smelly incense, golden icons, prayers of petition, public stoning, plastic effigies on dashboards, blind worship of an arbitrarily compiled and dubiously translated book, and lots of guys sporting big funny hats!
But none of them make the absolute case of authority -- hence, I select the default position of atheism until such time as there is a clear defining <i>reason</i> to select one over the other.
But the struggle over the spiritual questions -- in fact, pondering all great mysteries -- is the real thing that sets us above the animals. Perhaps in the end, sentient life is the universe's way of trying to understand itself. But I consider that a noble struggle, and don't diminish it in any way. I applaud it and it makes me feel good about the human condition. And hell, what is more courageous than saying, "I want to know the <i>truth?</i>" (wherever it leads).
As always, best regards to you and yours.
for Friends are non-Muslims - Teh_Curious - 01-09-2007
sorry RT but much of your argument is flawed, gimme an hour or 2 and ill try to respond to ur essay :P
feelin alittle lazy atm :P
for Friends are non-Muslims - Ruggedtouch - 01-09-2007
Quote:to be honest the more and more scientists learn the more convinced i am that god does exist look at the entire universe, galaxies and solar systems, planets and the enviroment here on earth. Things just seem a little too perfect to be random. (i can clarify this point if i need to it will just be long)
If these were objective statements based on factual observation rather than imposed conclusions of a subjective worldview, perhaps it would be remarkable.
But it is simply false to claim that “Things just seem a little too perfect to be random.” The illusion of a benign, odered universe is primarily an artifact of scale. We live in a profoundly violent and chaotic universe, but are spared direct experience with most of that chaos because it occurs on cosmic and geologic time scales, while we exist on a human time scale. This (luckily for us) means most of us expend our lifetimes in the brief moments of calm between supernovae, asteroid impact, and cometary bombardment. A perfect universe hardly requires mass extinctions via meteor impact. Remember Schumaker-Levy?
for Friends are non-Muslims - Faith Hope Charity - 01-11-2007
Hello RT :wavey:
I'll keep this reply to the absolute minimum. I'm feeling lazy today.
<b>Miracles -</b> The possibility of miracles cannot be denied by anyone who admits the existence of a personal God. He who fixed the course of nature can alter, suspend or supercede it at His pleasure. The question of miracles is a question of evidence. The evidence in favour of miracles can be so thoroughly tested & controlled that we can arrive at certainty both regarding the miraculous character of the occurrence & its confirmation of a doctrine. For more info: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10338a.htm
<b>Rational Knowledge of God -</b> By the light of pure reason, we may arrive at some knowledge of the Nature of God from the fact that He is the First Cause, eternal and self-existent. For more info: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm
<b>Supernatural Order -</b> Creation in its entirety includes heaven & earth. It indicates a bond, deep within creation, that unites both natural & supernatural & distinguishes the one from the other. For more info: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14336b.htm
<b>The Holy Bible -</b> The inspired written word of God. As every Biblical scholar knows perfectly well, there's no book in the world more difficult than the Holy Bible. It is a sheer absurdity to say that ordinary people (like you & I), with no knowledge of Hebrew or Greek, archaeology, ancient history or the writings of the Fathers of the Church, are competent to interpret it. "I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me" (St Augustine 354-430). For more info: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08045a.htm
<b>Theist Evolution -</b> The Church has not ruled out the theory of evolution so long as it involves the Creator. For more info: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05654a.htm
<b>Rational Soul & Human Intellect -</b> The soul of man gets its knowledge of material things through the senses, of immaterial things through the mind. For more info: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1086.htm#2
<b>Genesis -</b> Adam & Eve didn't fall from grace because they ate the apple & became opened to the world of good & evil. They already possessed infused knowledge. For more info: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm
<b>Man's Capacity for God -</b> From the age of reason onwards, we all search for the ultimate meaning in life. First comes the search, then the Divine Revelation by which God comes to meet man, & finally the response of faith. For more info: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608b.htm
<b>Non-Catholic Faith Traditions -</b> There's some truth in all religions (mono & poly). That doesn't mean that there exists many gods though. There's only One Supreme Being/Reality who belongs to everyone. There's no "us vs them" mentality in Catholicism. For more info: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10499a.htm
<b>The Soul -</b> All living earthly things have a soul (material or immortal). Plants: vegetative; Brutes: vegetative, sensitive; Humans: vegetative, sensitive, rational. For more info: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1075.htm#3
<b>The God-Given Gift of Freewill -</b> God's omniscient, however, He doesn't interfere with our choices. For more info: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1083.htm
<b>My one-line responses to the rest of your assertions:</b>
Take God out of the picture & morality becomes relative.
Evil is a distortion of good, permitted by God but never willed by Him.
The only thing God can't do is contradict Himself.
God, who is Perfect, can't create another God because God is an uncreated Being.
Evil is contrary to God's nature.
Being Catholic isn't a walk in the park.
There are no Atheists in hell because in the next life we're all believers.
Faith shouldn't contradict reason.
In our quest to become more God-like we're becoming less human.
Hell is painful (not physically) because it's eternal separation from God.
Constantine isn't the founder of Christianity; all he did was make it the official state religion.
Demons are fallen angels.
God doesn't have a religion.
Why do you fear death???
RT, it appears that you & I are the only ones reading this thread. Considering it has very little to do with Islam, shall we switch to PM mode? That way we can avoid essays & engage in a conversation-style interaction. Your posts contain everything from A-Z. Let's tackle one issue at a time. Please PM me with your response.
John Stuart Mill was spot-on when he said that Socrates dissatisfied is better than a pig satisfied. This discussion is rather intriguing!
Peace & Blessings.
<i>Faith Hope Charity Openness Tolerance Equality</i>
for Friends are non-Muslims - Ruggedtouch - 01-15-2007
Quote:Hello RT :wavey:
Why do you fear death???
RT, it appears that you & I are the only ones reading this thread. Considering it has very little to do with Islam, shall we switch to PM mode? That way we can avoid essays & engage in a conversation-style interaction. Your posts contain everything from A-Z. Let's tackle one issue at a time. Please PM me with your response.
John Stuart Mill was spot-on when he said that Socrates dissatisfied is better than a pig satisfied. This discussion is rather intriguing!
Peace & Blessings.
<i>Faith Hope Charity Openness Tolerance Equality</i>
Hey, FHC. I note that you and I are basically the only ones posting in this thread but it is getting a lot of "hits".
I haven't had a lot of time to go through your links, (I've had a nose-bleed work schedule to deal with). I did want to address your "fear death" comment though.
We all fear death I suppose, since no one knows what lies beyond that event...if anything. (Truth be known, I'll bet every fetus is scared xxxxless at the idea of <i>birth</i>, for the same reasons). Most likely death is simply "nothing", but that is as peaceful an eternity as any promised by religion.
But certainly I am as afraid of the pain, falling, hitting, bleeding, hurting, drowning, smooshing, burning, etc etc, as the next guy.
My take on death is this: I have a natural fear of it under certain circumstances. Let me illustrate: (note to FHC – what follows relates to a close friend I came to know and respect in the context of my earlier PM)
A close friend was diagnosed with melanoma at 33 years of age, and in the 5 months it took for him to die a miserable painful agonizing death in front of his 27 year old wife and his two daughters, one 7 and one 9 -- he was terrified.
This was a frightening, miserable and heartless way to die-- the pain and horror he endured was a nightmare, no appeals to Jesus changed a single thing, and he died less than three weeks before Christmas-- what a nice gift to his children. I do NOT wish to die that way. It's frightening, and the process of wrestling with one's mortality on an ongoing basis for months, always losing every battle, is mind numbingly terrifying.
Now someone else I knew only casually a few years ago was on his way home from work when he was approached from behind and shot in the head. He died instantaneously. This I cannot see being a necessarily "bad" way to go (the human tragedy part of it was terrible of course, but I mean more in the physical sense of dying). I know I have no choice in the matter (I must die sometime), but I readily have no fear of being alive one second and dead the next as I won't have time to even register the fact that I am dead.
What I find remarkable is the dynamic of islam’s martyr-murderers. The belief system has squelched the issue of self-preservation (via their ideology, which deceives them via a promise that cannot ever be proven to exist, i.e., paradise) and they are very much aware that being blown to bits pretty much snaps off the light switch with no time to register the fact that one is in pain or dead (academic argument, that last bit).
Perception is everything, of course, but I've always understood martyrdom to be based on dying for "the cause" at the hands of others...not the self-inflicted variety.
There's all sorts of honor accorded those who willingly lay down their lives in defense of (insert cause here)...the ultimate sacrifice.
I'd guess that's the mainstream opinion as well, at least in western societies, where I was raised.
Suicide on the other hand, is taught to be the "coward's way out" and, from the theists' points of view, the usurpation of god's role in taking something that isn't really "yours".
To commit suicide in a fashion that also takes the lives of other innocents is, of course, abhorrent to all societies...except orthodox moslems.
While they certainly didn't invent suicide bombing as a tactic, moslems are the ones saying these heinous crimes are legitimate, even honorable and praiseworthy, simply because they have changed the definition of mass murder/suicide to martyrdom.
Now imagine a world where everyone was instructed on the foundations of critical thinking, where each child was encouraged to question the supportive evidence of authority, where we all understood that our senses, while always accurately reporting what is there, often do not give us enough information to arrive at correct and sound interpretations --that we must always dig deeper and support the things we believe... Imagine that sort of a world.
for Friends are non-Muslims - Faith Hope Charity - 01-16-2007
May the Divine Love, Grace & Truth of the Most Blessed Trinity - One God - be with you always.
Hey, FHC. I note that you and I are basically the only ones posting in this thread but it is getting a lot of "hits".
I doubt anyone is actually reading our posts though - LOL!
I haven't had a lot of time to go through your links, (I've had a nose-bleed work schedule to deal with). I did want to address your "fear death" comment though.
Please take your time. Don't ware yourself out.
We all fear death I suppose, since no one knows what lies beyond that event...if anything.
Death is the most crucial event of our lives because of its finality. My fear of death is somewhat different to yours. I'm not worried about suffering or being removed from this life... but I'm scared that when I appear before the Son of God, my Judge, I'll be in an unworthy state. "Death inevitably brings us to the place where we shall be called to account for our actions & our whole life - something that we may have wished to avoid at all costs during our earthly existence."
(Truth be known, I'll bet every fetus is scared at the idea of <i>birth</i>, for the same reasons).
What's a fetus? Do you mean "baby"??? (JD will appreciate that joke)
A close friend was diagnosed with melanoma at 33 years of age, and in the 5 months it took for him to die a miserable painful agonizing death in front of his 27 year old wife and his two daughters, one 7 and one 9 -- he was terrified.
May he rest in peace. His family's in my prayers.
This was a frightening, miserable and heartless way to die-- the pain and horror he endured was a nightmare
A couple of months ago, I witnessed a 27 year old wife & mother of 3 lose her own battle with cancer. It was anything but a nightmare! I spent the last few hours with her. I spent the last few hours with her <i>& Jesus</i>. She bore her cross so beautifully. Her faith carried her through. I wish you could've been there. God bless her soul.
no appeals to Jesus changed a single thing
Hmmm... I beg to differ.
he died less than three weeks before Christmas-- what a nice gift to his children.
Christmas. What a poignant reminder of how valuable their father's soul truly is.
I do NOT wish to die that way. It's frightening, and the process of wrestling with one's mortality on an ongoing basis for months, always losing every battle, is mind numbingly terrifying.
"In the face of death we no longer have control over anything or can decide what is to be done. We are entirely in God's hands." Dying with warning has its benefits. Merely to dismiss the thought of death is not the way to overcome your fear of death. The only thing that can help you is to prepare for it.
Now someone else I knew only casually a few years ago was on his way home from work when he was approached from behind and shot in the head.
I pray that he too is at peace, & may God have mercy on his killer.
This I cannot see being a necessarily "bad" way to go (the human tragedy part of it was terrible of course, but I mean more in the physical sense of dying). I know I have no choice in the matter (I must die sometime), but I readily have no fear of being alive one second and dead the next as I won't have time to even register the fact that I am dead.
Death is lurking on all sides. Regardless of the method, whether you die slowly or instantly, you can't dodge what's ahead. The best thing we can do is prepare for death with a proper fear of judgement. "The agony of having to face death & walk through the dark valley can be turned into everlasting joy & glory - for those who have prepared beforehand. Jesus has conquered the power of death, & if we believe in Him, we shall experience His victory & the grace that He has won for us."
"Into Thy Hands, Lord, I Commend My Spirit."
Now imagine a world where everyone was instructed on the foundations of critical thinking, where each child was encouraged to question the supportive evidence of authority, where we all understood that our senses, while always accurately reporting what is there, often do not give us enough information to arrive at correct and sound interpretations --that we must always dig deeper and support the things we believe... Imagine that sort of a world.
I've skipped the part on death in Islam. I'm not qualified to comment nor do I wish to. Everyone around here already knows how I feel about beginning/end of life ethics.
As for your final paragraph, does it apply to me too... or is it a continuation of your thoughts towards Islam? I can't figure out how that sort of world contradicts Christianity. (Note: in terms of senses, we believe in both external & internal ones)
I pray that the suffering caused by fear of dying will be transformed into the most blissful & heavenly joy... for you & for all.
God bless you my dear friend.