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John 1 - Faith Hope Charity - 07-30-2009
Peace Wael!
Quote:I only asked who died on the Cross? Jesus the human or the Divine?
You can't separate the two. He's One Persen, remember?
It's like the term we give to the Blessed Virgin Mary, "Theotokos", which means Mother of God. She's not the mother of the Blessed Trinity, she's the mother of Jesus Christ. Since Jesus is One Person (possessing a fully human nature & a fully divine nature), it becomes fitting to call Our Lady the Mother of God - you don't give birth to a "nature", you give birth to a "person". It's the same with death - a person dies not a nature. Jesus' two natures were perfectly united into One Person.
Just in case you're wondering... the Son of God was not able to die until He became Man. The Incarnation is the key factor.
In Christ,
Kathie :)
John 1 - wel_mel_2 - 07-30-2009
Bismillah: Assalamo ALikum.
Quote:Perhaps the simplest answer is that <b>God can do whatever he wants.</b> He does not have to fulfill our expectations of logic.
Ok, so can he create a 'fat-thin' man at the same time or a ‘tall-short' guy simultaneously’?
If we just follow your understanding of God, then we can safely say that he could also die, since he can do “whatever he wants”.
Quote:As far as your claim that I will go to Hell, etc, if I do not accept a certain doctrine, that is a man-made doctrne to ensure conformity by those in power, or who would like power. The only opinion that matters is God's opinion. God regularly sends prophets to refresh the message, and get people back on the right track. Whether people listen or not is another matter.
The whole doctrine of Trinity is a man-made decision, you forgot what happened at Nicaea in 325 after Jesus? The purpose of this gathering was to settle the dispute between those who believed that Jesus Christ is not God and those who regards him as a divine. And so bishops of the Christian Church back then were gathered at Nicaea, and Constantine the Emperor who was in power at that time has convinced those Bishops to accept this “new” doctrine called Trinity. And at the end, the creed was signed by 218 Bishops to declare to the world that Jesus is actually equal with God. Not only that but they’ve regarded this “man-made” decision of the council members to be divinely inspired. Does this make any sense to you?
There was no one form of Christianity in the first few centuries, and there was no one canon which is agreed upon. So why do you reject the man-made doctrine found in the catechism and accept a whole dogma decided by an emperor almost 4 centuries after Jesus? And why none of the Prophets who preceded Jesus mentioned anything about it?
The encyclopedia of religion states that:
Quote:“Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible DOES NOT CONTAIN A DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY.”
Quote:Theologians agree that the New Testament ALSO DOES NOT CONTAIN AN EXPLECIT DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY.”
The New Catholic Encyclopedia mentioned:
Quote:“The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament.”
So if it was not taught in your Bible, then why should follow this human invention?
Salam
Wael
John 1 - wel_mel_2 - 07-30-2009
Bismillah: Assalamo ALikum.
Quote:Peace Wael!
You can't separate the two. He's One Persen,
Alright, so in short, Jesus died as a whole, including the divine part, is that correct?
Salam
Wael
John 1 - wel_mel_2 - 07-30-2009
BTW... Anyone care to answer my question regarding 'Bible for children' thread?
Salam
Wael.
John 1 - Steve Consilvio - 07-30-2009
Quote:Bismillah: Assalamo ALikum.
Ok, so can he create a 'fat-thin' man at the same time or a ‘tall-short' guy simultaneously’?
If we just follow your understanding of God, then we can safely say that he could also die, since he can do “whatever he wants”.
Actually, you desire for me to follow your definition of Christianity, and then reject it. Sorry that I can't help you. My definition of Christianity is already often at odds with other Christians. :-)
I speak the truth as I understand it. If you want to teach me something, then please teach me, but I will not be drawn into defending the interpretation of others, much less your interpretation of their interpretation.
Ideas exist separate from who speaks then. If you want to define and explore an idea, then please do so. The truth is the truth, no matter whose lips it is on, and an error is an error, no matter whose lips it is on.
Can Jesus die on the cross and be divine? Of course, why do you put limits on the divine? It is your definition of death and divine that is probably the problem. For example, if somebody was brought back from the dead, then were they really dead?
You are, I assume, trying to use reason to defend your Islam faith. But why defend any faith? It is God we want to understand and be in His grace, not some pedantic definition. God wants us to love one another. You are seeking ways to disagree with one another. That is a struggle that lies in your heart, and only you can solve it.
While I say I am Catholic, it was not my choice. God placed me in a Catholic family. Since there is hypocrisy everywhere, I see no purpose of trading one hypocrisy for another. I go to church because I am a sinner, not because I am holy.
You seem to have fallen into the trap of thinking that you are holier, wiser and smarter than Christians generically, and me specifically. It is a common trap, is it not, the sin of pride? You decide the question, and you decide what is the correct answer. Isn't that the classic format of the Inquisition? The self-righteous test the humble. Wasn't that the fate of Socrates, Jesus and all the prophets? The patient are stoned by the impatient. The weak are stoned by the strong.
If I may, could I ask you a question? How do you define mercy, and why is it important? Forget for a moment religious definitions and traditions. What is Mercy?
btw, how do I 'follow' the trinity? It is a concept, or a description. I love Jesus the same as I love you. Because I love him, he taught me how to love. If I can hate one person, then I hate the whole world. I even love Christians who I feel are in error. Afterall, I am just a sinner, too. It is only my sins that I can control, nobody else's.
I love Moses, Muhammad, Osama bin Laden and Hitler, too. I even love George Bush and Nixon. They are all a reflection of myself. I choose to reflect love and forgiveness, and purge the jealousy, hate, fear and pride that resides within me, as best I can. That is how I am in communion with the Holy Spirit. Can I prove it? lol Of course not. You shall see what you decide to see, and I shall see what I decide to see. That is what 'the seen and unseen' refers to.
Quote:These are the horns of the dilemma
What truth is proof against all lies
When sacred fails before profane
The wisest man is deemed insane
-lyrics from a song by the Grateful Dead
John 1 - wel_mel_2 - 07-31-2009
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
<b>Steve</b>
Quote:Actually, you desire for me to follow your definition of Christianity, and then reject it. Sorry that I can't help you. My definition of Christianity is already often at odds with other Christians. :-)
Brother, there is no definition for Christianity. Christianity never had been one religion as you were told. If the Ebionites Christians for example won the dispute over Jesus’ nature in the first few centuries, you would have probably believed that every Christian should be a Jew. If the Marcionites push their beliefs down people’s throat, you would have probably rejected the entire Old Testament and literally believed in two separate Gods. If the Gospel of Peter was included in the Canon, you would have believe that Jesus never die at all. (And I can go on like forever to show you that Christianity has got no one definite form in the first 4 centuries after Jesus.) So God alone knows what was the original teaching of Jesus and his disciples.
Quote:I speak the truth as I understand it. If you want to teach me something, then please teach me, but I will not be drawn into defending the interpretation of others, much less your interpretation of their interpretation.
Just speak what you wish, I only ask you not to put words into my mouth. Thanks.
Quote:Can Jesus die on the cross and be divine? Of course, why do you put limits on the divine? It is your definition of death and divine that is probably the problem. For example, if somebody was brought back from the dead, then were they really dead?
I beg you please to answer my question in a direct manner.
So what I got from the above is that “Yes, Jesus died as God too” did I get that right?
Quote:You are, I assume, trying to use reason to defend your Islam faith. But why defend any faith?
I don’t have to defend Islam; it has been there for over 1400 years standing on its own, who am I to defend the faith? Just try not to let me say what you wanted me to say. Why is it difficult for you to imagine that I am really asking a very innocent question?
Quote:While I say I am Catholic, it was not my choice. God placed me in a Catholic family. Since there is hypocrisy everywhere, I see no purpose of trading one hypocrisy for another. I go to church because I am a sinner, not because I am holy.
Being a catholic (whether you have choose to be or not), it is a personal matter, if you are enjoying there, then stay there, no one is pushing you to be something else.
Quote:You seem to have fallen into the trap of thinking that you are holier, wiser and smarter than Christians generically, and me specifically.
Don’t worry, I am not smart at all.
Quote:If I may, could I ask you a question? How do you define mercy, and why is it important? Forget for a moment religious definitions and traditions. What is Mercy?
Mercy is the state of returning bad with that which is good, to show an excellent behavior towards any offender, it includes compassion and love towards people in general.
I hope that you can also share your views on the question I asked on the other thread “Bible for children.” Thanks
Salam
Wael.
John 1 - Faith Hope Charity - 07-31-2009
Peace of Christ be with you!
Quote:Alright, so in short, Jesus died as a whole, including the divine part, is that correct?
Oh, I see what you're getting at.
Jesus, as a Person died, but even in the case of a human being, the living principle (the soul) goes on living after death - only the body dies. Jesus' "divine part" & His Human Soul did not cease to exist.
I hope that makes sense.
Quote:BTW... Anyone care to answer my question regarding 'Bible for children' thread?
Please copy & paste the link & I'll try to answer it soon.
God bless,
Kath :)
John 1 - wel_mel_2 - 07-31-2009
Quote:Peace of Christ be with you!
Oh, I see what you're getting at.
Jesus, as a Person died, but even in the case of a human being, the living principle (the soul) goes on living after death - only the body dies. Jesus' "divine part" & His Human Soul did not cease to exist.
I hope that makes sense.
I think I will stop here and see what everyone else think of this discussion so far. :rolleyes:
Here is the link to the other thread: Bible for children
Salam
Wael.
John 1 - Steve Consilvio - 07-31-2009
Quote:I beg you please to answer my question in a direct manner.
So what I got from the above is that “Yes, Jesus died as God too” did I get that right?
Nope.
Let me try again, okay? : Nobody actually dies. You don't die, I don't die. There is an afterlife, which we enter when we leave this world.
Yes, Jesus was killed (died) in this world, just as those who rose from the dead were 'dead.'
It has nothing to do with divine at all, except in yours (and evidently others) interpretation of the event.
Jesus' resurrection may be a bit unusual in that he brought himself to life (or so it might appear, we have no testimony) but the difference is really just one of timing. If God can create time, then altering it certainly isn't a big deal.
As I mentioned many posts ago, the Jews did not dispute the existence of God, but they did dispute the existence of an afterlife, or not. Jesus preached clearly in the affirmative that there was an afterlife. Having traveled back and forth, he establishes himself as having more authority on the issue. None of the people that I know who have passed on have returned to tell me anything. Since Jesus talks to God, and is a form of God (the confusing trinity) everything he does seems to be rich for contemplation.
If you accept that there is an afterlife, then I am not sure why the condition of Jesus over three days is of such importance. Evidently it is for you. But it is not, nor ever will be, an issue that can be decided with logic. Belief in God requires faith. All religious testament (as in testimony) is simply evidence we can accept or reject. We are the judges of what we believe/understand/recognize. The concept of redemption insures that our understanding is always a moving target. Never rest.
To be more specific, everybody's flesh dies. So presumably Jesus' flesh died in a manner that is common to all. (Although, there is testament of exceptions to even this commonality, too.) Miracles defy logic, as does faith, but it certainly does not make sense to me that the God in the afterlife could die. The Spirit lives forever. How could a bunch of stupid angry men kill God? That seems as unlikely as a bunch of self-righteous men killing evil.
A deeper question could be asked, like is the purpose of prophesy to teach or to prove? (Perhaps both; perhaps neither).
Does that answer your question? These are my opinions. I cannot speak for others.
It strikes me that you do not accept Jesus as God, therefore nothing I say will be adequate. That is what the song lyrics were meant to convey. Saint Thomas Aquinas said the same thing: "To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible."
The answers you seek, only you can answer.
Thank you for answering my question about mercy. Perhaps we can discuss it more deeply, when this issue is exhausted. Mercy is not just for how we interact with others.
John 1 - wel_mel_2 - 07-31-2009
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
I have really done with this topic; I will let others if possible to share with us their views on this matter which is to me, remained ambiguous and confusing. Now let me comment on some new issues you have raised in your last post.
Quote:Nobody actually dies. You don't die, I don't die. There is an afterlife, which we enter when we leave this world.
I normally prefer to speak with authority and references rather than presenting my own interpretation (which you think I am doing).
The Bible clearly states that God after forming man from dust, He breath into his nostrils “<b>THE BREATH OF LIFE</b>” (Genesis 2:7), that indicates that this man (or us) were dead before receiving the breath of life, otherwise why He gave us this ‘life’ if we were not dead in the first place? The result is obvious according to the Bible “…<b>and man became a living soul</b>”… we have become living after being dead.
Now what happens after we became living souls according to the Bible? we die again, the Bible says: “<b>For the living know that they shall die</b>…” Ecclesiastes 9:5
This is confirmed even in the Qur’an, that ‘<b>every soul shall have a taste of death’ </b>Qur’an (29:57) so our souls will taste death for sure, but after that we will experience afterlife.
Now there is another type of death mentioned in the Bible, which is called spiritual death occur when sin enters one’s heart. Like for example Ezekiel 18 ‘<b>the soul that sin it shall die’ </b>now I was not talking about this kind of death.
Quote:Belief in God requires faith.
No doubt, but faith is developed based on knowledge.
Quote:To be more specific, everybody's flesh dies. So presumably Jesus' flesh died in a manner that is common to all. (Although, there is testament of exceptions to even this commonality, too.) Miracles defy logic, as does faith, but it certainly does not make sense to me that the God in the afterlife could die. The Spirit lives forever. How could a bunch of stupid angry men kill God? That seems as unlikely as a bunch of self-righteous men killing evil.
Ok so if God don’t die, then Jesus is not the God of the afterlife? Maybe we could consider him as Holy man as described by Peter, chosen by God to accomplish a certain task etc, but not God himself, otherwise to say he died and claim that he is God is something totally incomprehensible.
Quote:Saint Thomas Aquinas said the same thing: "To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible."
How the one who has faith became faithful in the first place?
Salam
Wael.