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Ask a Shia - Muslimah - 05-12-2008
Bismillah
Quote:Ok its been a while so forgive me if im not up to speed with everything.
In His Name the Most High
However In Shi'i narrations there is mention of certain merits of visiting the shrine of Lady Fatima Ma'suma in Qom,
From Bihar al-Anwar by Allama Majlisi
<b>وَسَتُدْفَنُ فيها امْرَأةٌ مِنْ اَوْلادى تُسَمّى فاطِمَةَ، فَمَنْ زارَها وَجَبَتْ لَهُ الجنّة</b>
“A lady from my children, by the name of Fatima will be buried in Qum. Whoever visits her [shrine], will certainly be admitted to Heaven.”
Please note that the Arabic version of the hadeeth does not contain any reference to Qum. Just as the hadeeth included in Ibn Katheer that you didnt comment on. The one regarding the dust of Karbala. That is if the hadeeth is correct. Sobhan Allah, the language of the hadeeth is really very obviously made up. This is not the language style of our beloved teacher and Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam. Here you are refering to Fatima Bint Mussa may Allah be pleased with all of them ?? correct???? Can you also tell me who is the narrator. I mean a chain of narrators is not included in this hadeeth.
Sorry to say Karbala, but I really observed from your valuable input here, I mean on the personal level, how the Shia school is founded on a set of Quran interpretations, hadeeth ..etc put together for political reasons.
Ask a Shia - Muslimah - 05-12-2008
Bismillah
Wael, Karbala is correct, in Mutaa there is no divorce. This is another issue. The contract is automatically annuled when the determined time is due. Got this point?? I further added today for better explanation: contract is automatically disolved.
Ask a Shia - Karbala - 05-12-2008
Quote:Please note that the Arabic version of the hadeeth does not contain any reference to Qum. Just as the hadeeth included in Ibn Katheer that you didnt comment on. The one regarding the dust of Karbala. That is if the hadeeth is correct. Sobhan Allah, the language of the hadeeth is really very obviously made up. This is not the language style of our beloved teacher and Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam. Here you are refering to Fatima Bint Mussa may Allah be pleased with all of them ?? correct???? Can you also tell me who is the narrator. I mean a chain of narrators is not included in this hadeeth.
The Narrator of the Hadith is Imam Ja'far Al-Sadiq the 6th Imam of the Shi'ites. The point I was trying to make Muslimah is that there does exist within Shi'ite literature justification to visit the shrine in Qum. We don't do it just out of a whim. Get it?
Quote:Sorry to say Karbala, but I really observed from your valuable input here, I mean on the personal level, how the Shia school is founded on a set of Quran interpretations, hadeeth ..etc put together for political reasons.
I agree the Shi'i Sunni split is largely political, its to do with divine leadership. In my view politics ie rightful leadership is an inseparable part of Islam and hence extremely important.
Ask a Shia - Karbala - 05-12-2008
Quote:Quran 4:24 merely states that "all others are lawful," i.e. one may marry any partner to whom marriage is not otherwise prohibited in the Quran. It does not say that Mut'a is alright, and the verse's discussion of the dowery does not imply the legality of Mut'a but merely recites the general rule that the dowery contracted for, cannot be reduced except by mutual agreement.
Herein lies the fallacy of reading translations of the Quran. Wael take a closer look at the Arabic.
4:24 explicitly allows Muta'
فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهِ
The underlined word (Istamta'tum) is a derivative of the word Muta'. The literal translation here is <b>"Then as to those whom you do Muta' with, give them their dowries as appointed" </b> other verses differentiate conventional marriage by using the derivatives of the word "Nikah".
So you see Wael. The Quran here permits Muta' through the mutual agreement of dowries. Here is my challenge:
<b>Only another verse from the Quran can abrogate another verse in the Quran, Muta' has been allowed in 4:24 show me a verse where Muta' has been abrogated, forbidden or replaced.</b>
Your Divorce argument doesn't follow. It is a well known legal fact that there is no divorce in Muta' (you must remember that Muta' was definitely practiced and allowed at some points during the time of the Prophet(saw)) A Divorce involves certain protocols and formulas none of which apply in Muta'. Muslimah is right its more like an annulment.
Ask a Shia - Muslimah - 05-12-2008
Bismillah
Karbala, i was waiting for you to bring this up. Because I knew that the Muta issue is based on this particular word in this noble Ayah. let me try to help you Karbala and of course you dont have to take my word. I will just try to do my job being a native Arabic speaker so that Allah Wont ask me why didnt I? Karbala, the اسْتَمْتَعْتُم here refers to consumating the marriage. Since as you are aware, Allah Legalised divorce before marriage consumation as explained in Baqarah. I m typing this at midnigh tomorrow INsh aAllah I will quote the Ayah. Allah in this Ayah differentiate between divorce before and after consumation. However, because Allah's language is incomparable, in that Ayah he is refering to the act of consumation in a polite manner which is <i><b>estamtum behin. </b></i>. As you are quite aware, Muta marriage does not entail any financial liabilities, isnt it???
Ask a Shia - wel_mel_2 - 05-13-2008
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
Quote:So you see Wael. The Quran here permits Muta' through the mutual agreement of dowries. Here is my challenge:
<b>Only another verse from the Quran can abrogate another verse in the Quran, Muta' has been allowed in 4:24 show me a verse where Muta' has been abrogated, forbidden or replaced.</b>
"Prosperous are the believers ... <b>who guard their private parts</b> save from their wives and what their right hands own." (23:14).
According to the Prophet's wife Aisha may Allah be pleased with her: <b>'Mut'a is forbidden and abrogated in the Quran where God says: "who guard their private parts..." </b> (al-Jami' li Ahkam al-Quran, by al-Qurtubi, v5, p130)
Well, i believe Aisha may Allah be pleased with her.
Salam
Wael.
Ask a Shia - Muslimah - 05-13-2008
Bismillah
as salam alykom Karbala,
Alright let me elaborate and help you understand the interconnectivity of Quran, not that I expect you to consider what I m about to say, but I m doing my job and it is up to u to take it or not. Actually, to further explain, I m really into maintaining this thread to serve as an enlightening tool for others or whoever come to this place even after our death. That is why I m trying to dig as much as possible to try and put as much as fact as we can.
Karbala, as you prbably know Quran is interconnected and texts do explain one another, thus, we cannt simply chop and take parts, then explain it or interpret the way we like to serve certain trends. NO we cannt.
Allah Sat marital and divorce rules in different position in Quran for wisdom that is only known to Allah. I mean the rules were mainly estalished in Surat Baqarah, then explained further in Nisaa and others.
In Surat Baqarah: 236 Allah Say:
لاَّ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ إِن طَلَّقْتُمُ النِّسَاء مَا لَمْ تَمَسُّوهُنُّ أَوْ تَفْرِضُواْ لَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً <b>وَمَتِّعُوهُنَّ </b>عَلَى الْمُوسِعِ قَدَرُهُ وَعَلَى الْمُقْتِرِ قَدْرُهُ مَتَاعًا بِالْمَعْرُوفِ حَقًّا عَلَى الْمُحْسِنِينَ
There is no sin on you, if you divorce women while yet you have not touched (had sexual relation with) them, nor appointed unto them their bridal money. <b>But bestow on them (a suitable gift), </b>the rich according to his means, and the poor according to his means, a gift of reasonable amount is a duty on the doers of good.
وَإِن طَلَّقْتُمُوهُنَّ مِن قَبْلِ أَن تَمَسُّوهُنَّ وَقَدْ فَرَضْتُمْ لَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً فَنِصْفُ مَا فَرَضْتُمْ إَلاَّ أَن يَعْفُونَ أَوْ يَعْفُوَ الَّذِي بِيَدِهِ عُقْدَةُ النِّكَاحِ وَأَن تَعْفُواْ أَقْرَبُ لِلتَّقْوَى وَلاَ تَنسَوُاْ الْفَضْلَ بَيْنَكُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ
"And if you divorce them before you have touched (had a sexual relation with) them, and you have appointed unto them the bridal money, then pay half of that, unless they (the women) agree to forego it, or he (the husband), in whose hands is the marriage tie, agrees to forego and give her full appointed bridal money. And to forego and give (her the full bridal money) is nearer to piety. And do not forget liberality between yourselves. Truly, Allah is All-Seer of what you do."
Those are the two rules governing divorce before marriage consummation: one in case the husband committed himself with a deferred dowry (the second Ayah), then the woman will be in titled to half the amount. The first Ayah explains the case when there is not eferred dowry. In such case the man might give out an amount each according to his given financial capabilities, however, he is not obliged this is out of being a Muhsin. The word used in that Ayah is Mateouhun, meaning give them an amount for Mutaa. In other words, entertain them, comfort their hearts..etc.
The Ayahs further build up more ruling even in cases of husband death saying (quran 2:240):
وَالَّذِينَ يُتَوَفَّوْنَ مِنكُمْ وَيَذَرُونَ أَزْوَاجًا وَصِيَّةً لِّأَزْوَاجِهِم مَّتَاعًا إِلَى الْحَوْلِ غَيْرَ إِخْرَاجٍ فَإِنْ خَرَجْنَ فَلاَ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي مَا فَعَلْنَ فِيَ أَنفُسِهِنَّ مِن مَّعْرُوفٍ وَاللّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ
"And those of you who die and leave behind wives should bequeath for their wives a year's maintenance and residence without turning them out, but if they (wives) leave, there is no sin on you for that which they do of themselves, provided it is honourable (e.g. lawful marriage). And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise"
The same word is used here which is Mataan but the sense here is an asset to be used, however, bearing the same sense, to entertain them, cosole their hearts, and provide them an accomodation till they can handle their affairs.
And according to your explain in post 258, you said that in Mutaa there is not financial compensation.
Coming to the particular Ayah you quoted now:
وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ النِّسَاء إِلاَّ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ كِتَابَ اللّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَأُحِلَّ لَكُم مَّا وَرَاء ذَلِكُمْ أَن تَبْتَغُواْ بِأَمْوَالِكُم مُّحْصِنِينَ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحِينَ فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً وَلاَ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِيمَا تَرَاضَيْتُم بِهِ مِن بَعْدِ الْفَرِيضَةِ إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا
"Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, <b>provided you seek (them in marriage) with bridal money from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse</b>, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their bridal money as prescribed; but if after a bridal money is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise."
Here the Ayah stipulates the ruling of financial compensation when the husband and wife had conumated the marriage. The word اسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ here refers to the sexual contact a husband and wife had during their marital life in order to differentiate and be very precise when setting those rules between cases as above mentioned and this case. And the rest of the Ayah confirms this explaining that thise will be according to what you allocated and committed yourself with.
How can this word be taken out of cotext by Shia scholars to legalise Muta? Can you see the point Karbala?
One question before i move on, I m aware that you dont accept (or not sure if u do or practice), Husayhina rituals including the visit on the 40th day. Do you practice this Zeyarah????
Ask a Shia - Karbala - 05-13-2008
Quote:Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
"Prosperous are the believers ... <b>who guard their private parts</b> save from their wives and what their right hands own." (23:14).
According to the Prophet's wife Aisha may Allah be pleased with her: <b>'Mut'a is forbidden and abrogated in the Quran where God says: "who guard their private parts..." </b> (al-Jami' li Ahkam al-Quran, by al-Qurtubi, v5, p130)
Well, i believe Aisha may Allah be pleased with her.
Salam
Wael.
Wasalam,
23:14 Cannot abrogate 4:24, Aisha overlooked the fact that Surat Nisa is a Medinite Surah while Surat Al-Muminoon is a Meccan Surah. Medinite Surahs as you know came after Meccan Surahs.
Ask a Shia - Karbala - 05-13-2008
Quote:not that I expect you to consider what I m about to say,
Ouch! Muslimah we may not agree on many things, but can we at least respect each others views? I do consider everything you say.
Regarding your analysis of the word Muta' Verses 2:236-237, 2:240 and 4:24.
Quote:Karbala, the اسْتَمْتَعْتُم here refers to consumating the marriage.
If I understand you properly you are saying Muta' in 4:24 means the consummation of Marriage and not Muta' marriage. Ill tell you why this is impossible.
In 2:236 and 2:240 Muta' refers to the providing provision or bequeathing gift for the woman. In 4:24 Muta' meaning is different from 2:236 and 2:240. Muslimah you say that here it means consumation of marriage. But the proper term Allah(swt) used to refer to consumation of marriage is تَمَسُّوهُنَّ . Allah(swt) did not use تَمَسُّوهُنَّ in 4:24 hence the verse cannot be referring to consumation of marriage. تَمَسُّوهُنَّ used in 2:236, 2:237 and 33:49 to refer to consumation of marriage.
Ask a Shia - Muslimah - 05-14-2008
Bismillah
Karbala, so do I respect your viewpoint and that is why I continue conversing with you. I didnt mean what you go. Any way.
Well, let me explain to your further, first off, your argument cannt stand because as you yourself explained, Muta does not involve any financial obligations on the husband. Further it might apply even without sexual contact. Thus, building on the word اسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهِ which establishes a rule of paying a deffered dowry cannt be valid here.
Karbala, Alah's Words are endless. Allah Uses different words to refer to the same meaning specially when it comes to the sexual relation. As Allah Is Hayee (The All Shy). For example, in Quran 2:222
وَيَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ الْمَحِيضِ قُلْ هُوَ أَذًى فَاعْتَزِلُواْ النِّسَاء فِي الْمَحِيضِ وَلاَ تَقْرَبُوهُنَّ حَتَّىَ يَطْهُرْنَ فَإِذَا تَطَهَّرْنَ فَأْتُوهُنَّ مِنْ حَيْثُ أَمَرَكُمُ اللّهُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُحِبُّ التَّوَّابِينَ وَيُحِبُّ الْمُتَطَهِّرِينَ
وَلاَ تَقْرَبُوهُنَّ
فَأْتُوهُنَّ
"They ask you concerning menstruation. Say: that is an Adha (a harmful thing for a husband to have a sexual intercourse with his wife while she is having her menses), therefore keep away from women during menses and go not unto them till they have purified (from menses and have taken a bath). And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah has ordained for you (go in unto them in any manner as long as it is in their vagina). Truly, Allah loves those who turn unto Him in repentance and loves those who purify themselves (by taking a bath and cleaning and washing thoroughly their private parts, bodies, for their prayers, etc.)."
نِسَآؤُكُمْ حَرْثٌ لَّكُمْ فَأْتُواْ حَرْثَكُمْ أَنَّى شِئْتُمْ وَقَدِّمُواْ لأَنفُسِكُمْ وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّكُم مُّلاَقُوهُ وَبَشِّرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ<b></b>
Your wives are a tilth for you, so go to your tilth (have sexual relations with your wives in any manner as long as it is in the vagina and not in the anus), when or how you will, and send (good deeds, or ask Allah to bestow upon you pious offspring) before you for your ownselves. And fear Allah, and know that you are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give good tidings to the believers (O Muhammad).
Can you see Karbala, those two Ayah deal with rulings of the sexual relation between a husband and wife including when to abstain, how to approach it, ..etc. But because as I said Allah Is The All shy, and also if sea water was ink to serve the words of Allah, sea water would finish but not the Words of Allah. Thus, Allah Uses different words to refer to the same meaning according to context. Touching and approaching here refers to the sexual relation which is a source of pleasure. Pleasure is Mutaa. Thus, taking your presentation in consideration that Muta marriage does not involve any financial responsibilities, will help you understand the word. Estamtaum behen, meaning married to them and having pleasure with them in marriage. When you divorce them, give them Aujur (deferred dowry).
The other two positions Mata (asset) meaning accomodation and the other establishes also the deffered dowry which is granted to the woman as consolation.