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Ask a Shia - Karbala - 09-23-2007
Salam,
Quote:Anthropomorphism is the attribution of uniquely human characteristics and qualities to nonhuman beings, inanimate objects, or natural or supernatural phenomena.
Muslimah, the ascription of human qualities to Allah is exactly was anthropomorphism is. The belief you describe is not anthropomorphism. As you yourself said
Quote:We have no idea since Allah There is nothing like Him.
Muslimah do you believe that Allah has human like qualities? No? Then like me you are against anthropomorphism.
Hadji claims he believes in anthropomorphism. So you believe Allah has human like qualities e.g. human like hands, feet, body etc.
Why do I say Wahabbis believe in anthropomorphism while Ahl al-Sunnah don't? Ibn Taymiyyah is probably the most famous Anthropomorphist of all time. He was even jailed for it and the sunni scholars of his time wrote books and fatwas against him. Most famously ibn Jawzi.
If you ever read the last chapter of Ibn Wahabb's famous Kitab al-Tawhid you will be convinced of the anthroporphism of the Wahabbi school which is far from the traditional Ahl al-Sunnah school.
Look at statements like:
Quote:Confirmation of Allah's possessing two Hands, right and left
Quote:The agreement between the Scripture of the Jews and Islam, in that they both confirm that Allah has Fingers
These cannot be explained away with the excuse "but we do not comprehend Allahs hands or fingers". Ascribing hands of fingers to Allah in any stretch of the imagination is assigning a human quality or at the very least limiting Allah spatially. In my book this constitutes anthropomorphism.
Read this if you are interested.
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/masudq5.htm
Ask a Shia - Karbala - 09-23-2007
Quote:Seems I will just make an intervention here, Karbala, most of the time when i pray in Ka`ba and note I say most of the time, Iranian women actually break the line by not joining us.
We have discussed this before. I dont know what you saw. But Last year at Hajj I was with an iranian group and we had direct orders from the Supreme Leader if Iran and also other Marja's to pray in Jama'a and not on our own.
Quote:they keep approching me either in Masjed Nabawi or Ka`ba and insist I join them in a special dua
It seems like they were reciting Dua Tawassul. We have discussed Tawassul before.
Quote:Now I know we did discuss Torbah before, as I understand this torbah, I m not discussing the sharia reasons behind it as u presented, but it has to be brought from Karbala, being called Torbah Husayniah makes it a condition to be obtained from there, am I not correct???
No, it doesnt have to be brought from Karbala. Any earth will do. But most Turbahs are actually made in Karbala. But it isnt essential.
Ask a Shia - Muslimah - 09-24-2007
Bismillah
as salam alykom Karbala
My aim in this post is not to put words in Hadji's mouth, but I m sure he does not believe in anthropomorphism the way as explained in your quotes, no way may Allah Be Glorified of what they ascribe to Allah.
The rest INsh a Allah I will give you my own humble opinion later on in an effort to bridge this gap. Pls note, I m no scholar, not near one, didnt even attain formal Islamic education. But I will sincerely ask Allah to Closely Assist me on this point.
Quote:Salam,
Muslimah, the ascription of human qualities to Allah is exactly was anthropomorphism is. The belief you describe is not anthropomorphism. As you yourself said
Muslimah do you believe that Allah has human like qualities? No? Then like me you are against anthropomorphism.
<b>Hadji claims he believes in anthropomorphism</b>.
So you believe Allah has human like qualities e.g. human like hands, feet, body etc.
Why do I say Wahabbis believe in anthropomorphism while Ahl al-Sunnah don't? Ibn Taymiyyah is probably the most famous Anthropomorphist of all time. He was even jailed for it and the sunni scholars of his time wrote books and fatwas against him. Most famously ibn Jawzi.
If you ever read the last chapter of Ibn Wahabb's famous Kitab al-Tawhid you will be convinced of the anthroporphism of the Wahabbi school which is far from the traditional Ahl al-Sunnah school.
Look at statements like:
These cannot be explained away with the excuse "but we do not comprehend Allahs hands or fingers". Ascribing hands of fingers to Allah in any stretch of the imagination is assigning a human quality or at the very least limiting Allah spatially. In my book this constitutes anthropomorphism.
Read this if you are interested.
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/masudq5.htm
Ask a Shia - Hadji - 09-24-2007
Quote:Muslimah, the ascription of human qualities to Allah is exactly was anthropomorphism is. The belief you describe is not anthropomorphism.
I think we have a problem with our definitions. Muslimah's beliefs don't contradict with the beliefs of Ibn Taymiyah.
Quote:Confirmation of Allah's possessing two Hands, right and left
39:67 "And they esteem not Allah as He hath the right to be esteemed, when the whole earth is His handful on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens are rolled in <b>His right hand.</b> Glorified is He and High Exalted from all that they ascribe as partner (unto him)."
Quote:The agreement between the Scripture of the Jews and Islam, in that they both confirm that Allah has Fingers
This is from Saheeh Muslim:
Book 033, Number 6418:
Abdullah b. Amr b. al-'As reported that he heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Verily, the hearts of all the sons of Adam are between the<b> two fingers</b> out of the fingers of the Compassionate Lord as one heart. He turns that to any (direction) He likes. Then Allahs Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: 0 Allah, the Turner of the hearts, turn our hearts to Thine obedience.
Quote:These cannot be explained away with the excuse "but we do not comprehend Allahs hands or fingers". Ascribing hands of fingers to Allah in any stretch of the imagination is assigning a human quality or at the very least limiting Allah spatially. In my book this constitutes anthropomorphism.
Alright, well, as I've proven with the quotes from the Qur'an and Saheeh Muslim, it is clear to see that Allah (swt) has hands and fingers. Well, at least according to Sunnis.
By the way, being tossed in jail doesn't mean that you are a heretic or a blasphemer of any kind. Was Yusuf (as) wrong...? Imams Abu Haneefa and Ahmad ibn Hanbal were in jail as well.
Quote:Most famously ibn Jawzi.
Ibn Al Jawzi shared many beliefs with the A'sharis. Al Istiwa'a is something that they take metaphorically. It is not a surprise that he would disagree with Ibn Taymiyah.
Anyways, I don't believe in "anthropomorphism". Well, at least not according to your definition of it.
Ask a Shia - wel_mel_2 - 09-24-2007
Bismillah: Assalamo ALikum.
Quote:39:67 "And they esteem not Allah as He hath the right to be esteemed, when the whole earth is His handful on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens are rolled in His right hand. Glorified is He and High Exalted from all that they ascribe as partner (unto him)."
This is from Saheeh Muslim:
Book 033, Number 6418:
Abdullah b. Amr b. al-'As reported that he heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Verily, the hearts of all the sons of Adam are between the two fingers out of the fingers of the Compassionate Lord as one heart. He turns that to any (direction) He likes. Then Allahs Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: 0 Allah, the Turner of the hearts, turn our hearts to Thine obedience.
Alright, well, as I've proven with the quotes from the Qur'an and Saheeh Muslim, it is clear to see that Allah (swt) has hands and fingers. Well, at least according to Sunnis.
Let me give some thoughts here.
Surely Allah has His own hands, feet, face etc… <b>but are you guys comparing Him with our hands, faces, and feet? </b> Of course we could not do that and chapter 112 is sufficient enough to proof what am saying “and <b>THERE IS NOTHING WHATSOEVER COMPARABLE TO HIM</b>”. It’s like the WINE we are going to drink in HEAVEN insh a Allah, I am sure its going to be something totally different from the Haram wine. <b>So the moment you can draw in your imagination an image of God, be sure that HE IS NOT GOD ALMIGHTY. </b>
Yes the Qur’an mentioned that God has got hands etc, but how they look like? Are they same as our hands and faces? The Qur’an gives the answer.
<b>"No vision can grasp Him But His grasp is over all vision: He is Above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things." </b> [Al-Qur’an 6:103]
Anthropomorphism? How this could be a topic for dispute among the Muslims? We know well that Allah does not need to take any human form and live amongst us!!! :glare:
Salam
Wael
Ask a Shia - Hadji - 09-25-2007
Are the hands of humans and the hands of clocks the same?
From your link:
Quote:"Honor the cow, for it has not lifted its head to the sky since the [golden] calf was worshipped, out of shame (haya’) before Allah Mighty and Majestic" (Ijtima‘ al-juyush al-Islamiyya [Riyad: ‘Awwad ‘Abdullah al-Mu‘tiq, 1408/1988], 330), a forged (mawdu‘) hadith apparently intended to encourage Muslims to believe that Allah is floating about the sky.
I've looked this hadeeth up. It is not authentic. Yet, this hadeeth is not needed for Sunnis to believe that Allah (swt) is in the heavens.
I'm sure that you are aware of the hadeeth of the Prophet (pbuh) asking the <i>jariyah</i> about where is Allah (swt). She replied, "<i>Fil sama'a.</i>" Because of her answer, he accepted the truthfulness of her faith.
This hadeeth, and similar version of it, can be found in the works of Al Dhahabee, Abu Dawood, Ibn Khuzaimah, Imam Muslim and Al Haithamee.
This person obviously believes that Allah (swt) is "everywhere". If you are going to quote those from Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama'a, I suggest you do so without referring to the flawed logic of Al Asha'ara and Al Ahbaash. The views of these few don't represent the rest of us.
Ask a Shia - wel_mel_2 - 09-25-2007
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
Quote:Are the hands of humans and the hands of clocks the same?
I thought that the argument was about God's hands and feet are same or similar to His creation and that's why I added my view.
By the way, using the clock hands' example was really funny :lol:
Salam
Wael.
Ask a Shia - Karbala - 09-25-2007
Salam,
Hadji you actually believe Allah is in the sky? I would like you to clearly state your belief regarding
1. Allah having a bodily form or shape.
2. Allah occupying space and time.
I have said before Bukhari Muslim etc are flawed documents from my point of view. The same Bokhari states:
Allah has a shin:
Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. <b>'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin </b> whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...ri/093.sbt.html
Allah has a foot:
As for the Fire (Hell), it will not be filled till Allah puts His Foot over it whereupon it will say, 'Qati! Qati!' At that time it will be filled, and its different parts will come closer to each other
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...ri/060.sbt.html
You people cannot seriously believe these fantasies????!!!!
Ask a Shia - Hadji - 09-25-2007
Quote:Hadji you actually believe Allah is in the sky? I would like you to clearly state your belief regarding
1. Allah having a bodily form or shape.
2. Allah occupying space and time.
Honestly, I don't know if Allah (swt) is "in" time. I don't know if He has a bodily form. I can't really speak of Him occupying space either.
I believe that when speaking about Al Ghaib, we shouldn't jump to conclusions based upon our natural logic. Like I've said, Allah (swt) having hands doesn't mean that they are like our hands. Similarly, our hands and the hands of clocks aren't similar.
Allah (swt) says that He has a right hand. This is NOT from Sunni texts. This is from the Qur'an. Instead of accepting that Allah (swt) has said this, you dismiss what Allah (swt) is saying by interpretting it as figurative language because it contradicts with your logic.
Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama'a know that "The Creator of the eavens and the earth. He hath made you pairs of yourselves, and of the cattle also pairs, whereby He multiplieth you. <b>Naught is as His likeness;</b> and He is the Hearer, the Seer." Al-Shura 11
It is absurd to believe that Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama'a think that Allah's (swt) hands are similar to ours. We know that there is nothing like Allah (swt), yet, we don't dismiss what He has established just because we cannot comprehend it.
Quote:39:67 "And they esteem not Allah as He hath the right to be esteemed, when the whole earth is His handful on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens are rolled in His right hand. Glorified is He and High Exalted from all that they ascribe as partner (unto him)."
If this wasn't in the Qur'an and was in Bukhari or Muslim you would most likely call it a "fantasy" as well.
Unlike Mir Damad or Mullah Sadra, I'm not someone who speaks of matters of Ghaib that I will never understand. "And they have no knowledge thereof. <b>They follow but a guess, and lo! a guess can never take the place of the truth.</b>" Al-Najm 28
Anyways, I think that I've established that Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama'a and the Wahabis/Salafis have the same aqeedah. It is pretty much impossible to be a Sunni without believing that Allah (swt) isn't in the sky because that contradicts Al Bukharis authentic compilation of hadeeths. As I pointed out earlier, it is the Shi'ites that differ with Ahlul Sunnah when it comes to aqeedah since you don't accept these things about Allah (swt).
By the way, where do you think is Allah (swt)? Is He on Al Arsh or is that just figurative language? Where is Al Arsh in your opinion? Where are the angels for that matter?
Ask a Shia - Hadji - 09-25-2007
Sorry for the double post everyone. I just feel that the next few examples kind of deserve another post.
Anyways, here are a few other examples from the Imams of the four math'habs of Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama'a:
1- <b>Abu Haneefa</b>: Who denied that Allah is in the sky, then he is an unbeliever.
Al- Dahabi, "Mukhtasar Al-Ulu" p. 137
2- <b>Malik ibn Anas</b>: Allah is in the sky, He knows of everything that occurs everywhere, and nothing escapes him.
Abu Dawood, "Al Masa'il" p. 263
3- A man entered and said, "O Abu Abdullah ((The Beneficent One, Who is established on the Throne)) how did he establish Himself?" <b>Malik</b> started to sweat. He replied, "The 'how' cannot be understood, and 'establishing' is known (the act that He established himself), believing in this is mandatory, and asking about it is an innovation, and I am afraid that you have gone astray." Then Malik ordered him to be taken away and he was made to leave.
Al-Darmi, "Al-Rad ala Al-Jahmiya" p. 33
4- Al Waleed ibn Muslim asked <b>Imam Malik</b> about the narrations that bring up the attributes of Allah, his reply was to accept it the way it was found without interpretation.
Mohammed ibn Is'haaq (Ibn Munda), Al Tawheed p. 96
5- <b>Imam Al-Shafi'i</b> said, "The sunnah that I follow, the one that has been followed by those that I have seen, like Sufyaan and Malik and others, is witnessing that there is no god except of Allah, and Mohammed is His Prophet, and that Allah is on his throne in His sky..."
Ibn Abi Hatim, "Adab Al-Shafi'i wa Manaqibih" p. 93
6- A man asked Abu Abdullah <b>(Imam Ahmed)</b>: "Allah is above the seventh sky on His throne and is seperate from His creation, and his power and his knowledge is everywhere?" He replied, "Yes, He is on His throne, and nothing escapes His knowledge."
Ibn Al-Qayyim, "Al Juyoosh" p.77
-----------
I think I have proved my point. Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama'a were never at a disagreement when it came to the attributes of Allah (swt). All four Imams have the same aqeedah and Ibn Taymiyah hasn't contradicted them at all. Those that persecuted Ibn Taymiyah for those reasons are the ones that contradicted their own beliefs.
By the way, I'm sorry if the translations are somewhat rough. I could quote them precisely from the books, but I know that you have difficulties with Arabic.