French Deny Visa Over Head Scarf

French Deny Visa Over Head Scarf - Printable Version

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French Deny Visa Over Head Scarf - Khairan - 05-14-2004

Quote:Originally posted by Hazam'sBro I still don't understand why women that follow the ways of Islam have to wear a head scarf. It puzzles me.

The covering of the head issue is not actually as set in stone as some would argue. There are entire communities of Muslims who only require headcoverings during prayer and religious gatherings (and often will require men to cover their heads under the same circumstances). Mustali Muslims are an example of this.The contention centers around the fact that the Qur'an says for women to "cover their bosoms," but it tells them to cover their bosoms using a "khimr", a word traditionally regarded as referring to headdress (though it can also in just mean "cloth"). For this reason, it seems to me that the idea of a headscarf mandate is valid -- but there is no specific command which says to women "Cover your head."

A great number of my problems with modern Islam is that both Muslims and Westerners try to push this idea of Islam as totally defined -- a concept concerning which there can be no debate and no doubt. In Western circles, this often takes a persecutory bent -- that Muslim culture is base and primitive, and the only way to help or deal with Muslims rationally is to make them abandon their Islamic values and to accept Western ones, which are of course liberating and progressive.

In Muslim circles it has the effect of stifling critical introspection of Muslim culture. The irony is that the oral traditions which most Muslims build the larger part of their daily practice on were proscribed by the Prophet himself (according to other oral traditions), and it is recorded also that the first few collections were destroyed or ignored by the early caliphs specifically because the Prophet ordered that only the Qur'an was to be followed and recorded, not his daily routines.

I think it is prudent to be highly suspect of anyone who claims a full knowledge of exactly how Islam should be practiced, without admitting room for debate.

French Deny Visa Over Head Scarf - Muslimah - 05-14-2004

as salam alykom brother sister Khairan

I will attend to the rest of your post later,

but there is nothing as modern Islam plus no room for debate when it comes to Allah's rules brother/sister

we dont put a question mark when Allah puts a period.

French Deny Visa Over Head Scarf - Khairan - 05-14-2004

Quote:Originally posted by Muslimah as salam alykom brother sister Khairan

I will attend to the rest of your post later,

but there is nothing as modern Islam plus no room for debate when it comes to Allah's rules brother/sister

we dont put a question mark when Allah puts a period.

My point is that Muslims are often too sure of themselves regarding where God's "periods" are. The only evidence one needs of that is to see the vast variation in culture and practice amongst different groups of Muslims, most of whom assume their way is the "right" way, period.p.s. I'm a dude

[Image: smile.gif]

French Deny Visa Over Head Scarf - Ibn_kumuna - 05-15-2004

Sakaan Alaikum!

Is anyone suprised? France is in fear of loosing her "Frenchness". In either case, I never had much respect for France anyways.

--Ibn

French Deny Visa Over Head Scarf - Shereen - 05-15-2004

Here u go again infleunced by that media of ur's [Image: biggrin.gif]

......lolz......& i wasn't pointing it at u..........there r ppl like u out there who know nothing of Islam........What r u trying to prove here ?? that WE don

t know anything & U know everything? pity urself

& y r u asing me UR OWN question "Labelling us what" u know wat ur kind of people Label us !

What about ur "great & honourable" US soldiers there who r abusing men & women alike?? got any remarks 4 them?

French Deny Visa Over Head Scarf - Ibn_kumuna - 05-15-2004

Salaam Alaikum!

Whether or not the hijab is "obligatory" or not is of no issue. The issue is France's swift drift towards the right. Jacques Chirac's move only further afirms my position that France has an "identitiy" crisis.

--Ibn

French Deny Visa Over Head Scarf - Ibn_kumuna - 05-15-2004

Salaam Alaikum

Oh come now. France couldn't possibly be antagonized by the hijab, yalmuk or the nun covering, now could they?

--ibn

French Deny Visa Over Head Scarf - Muslimah - 05-15-2004

as salam alykom

being a dude makes u a brother am I correct?

Ok:

1. Alhamdulelah, we know how the hadeeth was collected that once someone had to travel all the way from Mecca to Damscus to take a hadeeth, when he found the narrator deceiving an animal (waving with food) when he didnt have it, the man told him no need to take something from a lier. So Alhamdulelah, hadeeth was collected with cautious. If I understood your point correctly.

2. How did you learn the movements of Salat?

3. Talking about women dress code, u stated that u feel it is a mandate. yes it is, explaining about the Khimar was correct. But allow me to elaborate as a native Arabic speaker.

4. The word Khimar which we are supposed to use and Allah specifically Say: "and to draw their veils all over Juyûbihinna " (Quran 24:31) the word veil here is used to translate khumuruhen. The word khimar is derived from khammar which is a verb used to say khammar al anaeya = covered the pot. Of course the top of the pot. So when u say khammar anything it automtically means to cover the top of the thing. So Allah here used khumurhen as means to imply covering the head. Juyûbihinna here means the opening slit made on top of any femal garment to allow her put her head thru.

I wanted to explain this for everyone not only u, just being a native arabic speaker.

The only evidence one needs of that is to see the vast variation in culture and practice amongst different groups of Muslims, most of whom assume their way is the "right" way, period.

I am not sure I got your point here, excuse me sometimes I am slow:confused:

French Deny Visa Over Head Scarf - Khairan - 05-15-2004

Quote:Originally posted by Muslimah The only evidence one needs of that is to see the vast variation in culture and practice amongst different groups of Muslims, most of whom assume their way is the \"right\" way, period.


I am not sure I got your point here, excuse me sometimes I am slow:confused:

My point is that you speak very emphatically about there being no doubt concerning what true Islam is -- at least, that is the only way I can interpret your statement regarding "not putting question marks where God puts periods."However, the fact of the matter is that all we have are question marks. It doesn't matter how true or how perfect the Qur'an (or any scripture or revelation for that matter) is, we as human beings must still interpret what is revealed through the imperfect medium of language. Words mean certain things in certain contexts, and those meanings change over time. Regardless, no one's judgement concerning religion can be perfectly correct all of the time. So again I repeat: we have nothing but question marks, and all anyone can do is try to approach their life with honesty and decency and try to interpret the instructions left as best one can. The rigid notion that religion has been "all figured out" interferes with this. In fact, one should challenge religious assumptions constantly and not fall into the complacency of assuming that one understands where all of God's "periods" are placed.

As a final comment, I would remind you that even the Qur'an and oral traditions record moments when the Prophet's religious judgement was not correct, because God had not yet given him guidance. If he can be wrong, surely then so can any other Muslim.

French Deny Visa Over Head Scarf - Muslimah - 05-15-2004

as salam alykom Khairan

ok, let me see if I got u correctly.

If u r referring to the incident when the Messenger was admonished in Quran like in surat abas and Kahf, this is not judgement, this is disciplining him.

His judegment u must be aware was never from his own desire.

Limits of Allah are so clear, u mean u can debate Ayahs of murder and others?? We can not interpret them our own way.

I think we both agree on being a must to obey what Allah commands right? can u debate the importance of Salat?

Our relation being servants of Allah means full submission am I not right??

being open minded has nothing to do with needing to interpret what Quran say according to our needs when things are so clear.

Can u bring an example on where things are not exactly clear??

I am really concerned to know