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Important points raised by Khairan - Printable Version

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Important points raised by Khairan - Muslimah - 05-17-2004




Quote:Muslimah, I absolutely agree with what you say regarding the verses themselves -- those are very clear.  However, my contention is on the historical context surrounding the verses, which we obviously don't agree on.  By the way, I have met a great many Muslims who agree with my view of that particular moment in history; I was in fact first taught about it when I was young by an aunt, who was explaining to me about divorce and women's rights in Islam, so I am not making this up at whim.oh, I'm in the U.S.
brother, r u or any of your family a native arabic speaker? well the historical context even has nothing to do with this, simply because the Ayah goes as والذين يظاهرون من نسائهم

see this sentence does not deal in any way with divorce. So the issue here is not divorce which is طلاق in Arabic addressed a great deal in Surat baqarah in terms of Eda and more.

Now i didnt say u r making it up, I am just trying to re explain what u received. We all can simply receive something in the wrong way.

The Ayahs is presenting a case not of divorce but of ظهار zehar as I explained to u. It does not need any personal comment brother two totally different words

I will be off now, Insh a Allah it is getting late here. 11 pm

time difference u know

:embarrase



Important points raised by Khairan - Muslimah - 05-17-2004


as salam alykom

believe it or not I signed on again, becoming islammessage holic huh

any way, I think in some cases I have a problem understanding your actual point.

let me see here, u say that many Muslims, ( i havent met any myself), disagree with the penalty for apostasy.

If this is the point then:

apostasy is a crime in Islam, a crime is usually associated with societal harmful effects.

Islam does not enforce a punishment over non Muslims living in a Muslim state (if there is any now).

A non Muslim may live and practice freely.

However, a Muslim who walks away is subjected to punishment of death.

Allah say in Quran what means the Deen accepted to Allah is Islam and that Allah does not accept for His servants kufr after being Muslims

Just look at the harmful effects of a parent who walks away on his children.

Just exactly as one who kills is punished by death murder. A killer has damaging influence on the society.

Just briefly.

Hope u r following the point.



Important points raised by Khairan - Khairan - 05-17-2004




Quote:as salam alykombelieve it or not I signed on again, becoming islammessage holic huh

any way, I think in some cases I have a problem understanding your actual point.

let me see here, u say that many Muslims, ( i havent met any myself), disagree with the penalty for apostasy.

If this is the point then:

apostasy is a crime in Islam, a crime is usually associated with societal harmful effects.

Islam does not enforce a punishment over non Muslims living in a Muslim state (if there is any now).

A non Muslim may live and practice freely.

However, a Muslim who walks away is subjected to punishment of death.

Allah say in Quran what means the Deen accepted to Allah is Islam and that Allah does not accept for His servants kufr after being Muslims

Just look at the harmful effects of a parent who walks away on his children.

Just exactly as one who kills is punished by death murder. A killer has damaging influence on the society.

Just briefly.

Hope u r following the point.
And yet, the Qur'an says "Let there be no compulsion in religion." If you threaten to kill someone for leaving Islam, are you not compelling there religious beliefs? Further, such a person who stayed a Muslim even though they did not believe is a hypocrite (also condemned), as they are Muslim for show only and not because they actually believe so.

As for whether this is a point argued by Muslims, it most certainly is. I will refer you to the S.A. Rahman, a Chief of Justice in Pakistan, who did not support a death penalty for apostates and noted that in the 20 or so instances where apostasy is mentioned in the Qur'an, never once is death associated with it. So, there is absolutely NO scriptural basis for killing apostates and this penalty is based solely on oral tradition. Further, to my knowledge there is no historical record of the Prophet ever sentencing someone to death for apostasy.



Important points raised by Khairan - Ibn_kumuna - 05-18-2004


Salaam Alaikum!

When I think about coercion, the first individual that surfaces to mind is Aristotle. Anyhow, "let there be no compulsion in religion" is an imperative injunction that is evident within the Quran itself. However, let it be known, that Medieval jurists had their wits about 'coercion' and "freedom of choice.”

To rephrase Ayn Rand’s statement about coercion, “Where coercion begins, the death of the mind begins.”

–Ibn



Important points raised by Khairan - Muslimah - 05-19-2004




Quote:And yet, the Qur'an says \"Let there be no compulsion in religion.\"  If you threaten to kill someone for leaving Islam, are you not compelling there religious beliefs?   So, there is absolutely NO scriptural basis for killing apostates and this penalty is based solely on oral tradition.  Further, to my knowledge there is no historical record of the Prophet ever sentencing someone to death for apostasy.
as salam alykom

brother I am afraid u have a tendency of loosing the point, not sure why? as Dan told u I explained things as a native arabic speaker u still dont see them.

Well let us take things slowly here.

I am really keen on helping u.

I was simply discussing the in case a death penalty was enforced.

Again Islam is a system of the society including punishments for many crimes: murder, stealing, rape ( u know that rape has a punishment in Islam where did it come from?) go search this one, if no luck come and tell me.

Ok for the society to remain intact, such punishments must be applied.

Apostasy is a crime in Islam that has nothing to do with non Muslims,

We dont go pull a non muslim and torture him/her to embrace Islam, we dont even go around houses, knocking doors preaching our religion which is a gift.

Ok those outside we have nothing to do with them except calling them in a kind way or even simply pratice our religion and they will follow.

But did u see my point, which Iam not sure u even read it of the harm. Well I can repeat what I said no problem, Alhamdulelah i am usually patient with non Muslims, u even deserve more patience.

So dont mix the no complusion in religion with this.

Again crimes have punishments. and I will bring u more details Insh a Allah

just let us do it slowly and try to understand the point before u post replies.

can we make this agreement??? [Image: smile.gif]



Important points raised by Khairan - Khairan - 05-19-2004


haha Muslimah, I think we seem to be having problems communicating with each other. [Image: smile.gif]

I read your post, and I understand the point you are making, but I don't agree with the interpretation. Also, I don't think you yourself have addressed the issues I've raised in my post.

Let me try this again. The issue of apostasy can be broken down into two questions:

1. Is apostasy a crime in Islam?

I am not concerned with addressing this question, and I am making no attempt to argue whether or not apostasy is in fact a crime.

2. IF apostasy IS a crime, what should the punishment be?

This is the question I am concerned with. You have made the argument that because apostasy is a crime which is disruptive to social and familial structures, Islam requires that apostates be put to death. My argument is that there is no scriptural basis for a death sentence. The Qur'an discusses apostasy, but never once mandates that apostates be put to death. NEVER. That simple. Therefore, I ask from whence does this call for execution come? Not from God, that much is clear.

Awaiting your answer...



Important points raised by Khairan - Muslimah - 05-20-2004


Alhamdulelah, finally u put your points clear enough for any reader to get.

I knew that this is what u were going to, that is why I brought up rape.

Insh aAllah I will attend to this later.......



Important points raised by Khairan - Muslimah - 06-14-2004


as salam alykom


sorry for being late, but I had to attend to other issues, I found a fatwa given by Sheikh Qaradawi, it covers much about the apostasy point:


Taken from a fatwa for Sheikh Youssef Qaradawi in response to a question about a common person who carried out a death sentence against an apostate.


Praise be to Allah and prayer and peace be upon His Messenger Mohamed


In regard to one who declares apostasy publicly. First step, when his position is confirmed, as pronouncing the word of Kufr clearly and directly without possibility of misunderstanding, must be adviced to repent. Scholars differed regarding the grace period that must be given for his/her repentance. For example Omar Ibn Al Khattab may Allah be pleased with him, who is well known of strict devotion to Islam, was of the opinion that an apostate must be given a life time chance to repent, must be put into prison, offered food and instructed to repent until he repents or dies.


Applying of rules and Ta`azeer (which I asked u about regarding rape, see there a rule in Islam called Ta`azeer which is that the Muslim ruler is allowed to enforce a penalty based on Quran and Sunnah) is the responsibility of the ruler only and not to any common person.


The most serious situation a Muslim may encounter is what threatens his belief. Therefore, apostasy is a serious threat to the Muslim community. Enemies of Islam also resorted to a grave plot which is to tempt Muslims out of their religion using force, weapons, cunnings and fraud. Just exactly as Allah explained in Quran 2:217:" And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islamic Monotheism) if they can."


In our modern time, Muslim communities were exposed to hard attacks aiming at destroying the roots such as the organized Christian preaching that coincided with the Western colonization that is still active among the Muslim world especially with Muslim minorities. The objective is to Christianize Muslims around the world as clearly stated during the Colorado Conference held in 1978. In this conference, 40 studies dealing with Islam, Muslims, ways to spread Christianity among Muslims were presented. A billion dollar budget was allocated for this purpose. In addition to the establishment of Zoimer institute from which specialized personnel in the activity of Christianity graduate.


The Sheikh went on giving other examples threatening the Muslim community that I don’t want to include here not to prolong the post.


Then he continues, out of the duty of the Muslim community in order to maintain its security to resist all sources and forms of apostasy in an effort to contain the problem at an early stage. Just exactly as Abu Bakr and the companions may Allah be pleased with all of them handled the situation when they fought apostates who followed false prophets such as Musaylema, Sahah and Saddy. Apostasy poses a serious threat on the society especially when it spreads around without a counter force to fight it. Individual cases of apostasy must be restrained and contained so that it does not turn into a collective one. Muslim scholars were consensus on punishing the apostate, however, they differed around the type of penalty to be applied. The four schools are consensus on a death penalty for the apostate. A number of authentic hadeeth were narrated by Ibn Abbas, Aa-esha, Annas, Abi Horairah and Mo`awaiah Ibn Haydah, in this regard such as the one narrated by Ibn Abbas:" One who alters his Deen (religion) kill him" (reported by consensus). Ibn Masoud also narrated:" The blood of a Muslim who testified that la Ilaha ila Allah and that I am the Messenger of Allah is not permissible unless in three cases: a soul for a soul, the married one who commits zina (illegal sexual intercourse) and one who walks out of his religion detaching from the group" (reported by consensus).


As for the Imams who applied the punishment of apostasy, such as Ali who enforced it on a group of people who claimed Ali's Divinity, he first addressed them harshly to abandon what they are doing, then asked them to repent, but they listened to neither nor. He threw them in the fire. Ibn Abbas objected only to the means of death which is burning in fire stating that we should not use the type of torture Allah Uses.


Abu Mussa and Mo`adh also enforced a death penalty on a Jew in Yemen who embraced Islam then apostated and Moa-adh said, it is the judgment of Allah and His Messenger (sallah Allah a`alyhee wa sallam).


While Abdel Razzaq narrated that Ibn Masoud captured a group of people from Iraq who apostated. He sent a message to Omar consulting his opinion. Omar replied as introduce Islam, the Deen of the truth and the testimony of faith La ilaha ila Allah, to them, if they accept it, then release them. Other wise kill them. A number of them accepted Islam and were released while the rest who didn’t accept were killed. (narrated by Abdul Razaq in his classified: 168/10, item 18707).


Ibn Taymiah wrote that the Messenger (SWS) accepted the repentance of a number of apostates while he commanded the death of another group. The ones who were sentenced to death added to apostasy harmful practices to Islam and Muslims. For example, on the day of opening Mecca, the Messenger (SWS) commanded the death of Maqees Ibn Hebaya who in addition to apostasy killed Muslims and took their money. He didn’t repent. While he also ordered the death of Al A`arneen who practiced similar acts plus apostasy. Ibn Khatl who insulted and killed Muslims was also sentenced to death. The Messenger (SWS) also sentenced Ibn Abi Sarh to death for not only apostating, but also telling lies and false information about him. Sheikh Ibn Taymiah actually differentiated between two levels the case is coupled with fighting Allah, His Messenger, and spread of corruption must be dealt with in a harsh manner (source: Sarem Masloul of Ibn Taymiah, P. 368).


Some say that it was not proven that the Messenger of Allah (SWS) killed an apostate, while what Ibn Taymiah introduced in his book totally annuls this claim. Even if it was true, will be simply because this crime was not committed during his life, just as he didn’t punish any one who copied foot steps of people of Lut (homosexuality), simply because no one did it at his time. Although scholars were consensus on a death penalty for the apostate, yet Omar was quoted on a different position, Ibn Hazam narrates that Anas returned back from Tastar and met with Omar who asked him: What did the 6 men of Bakr Ibn Wael who apostate and joined the Mushrekeen do? He replied O Emir of the believers, they were killed during the battle? Omar said Inna lelahi wa inna elayhee raj-e`oun. Anas inquired was their any other option? Omar replied yes I would suggest to them Islam, if they rejected, I would put them in jail" (presented by Abdel Razeq in Musanaf: 165/10, 166- Sunan of Bayhaqi: 207/8 and Mahaly of Ibn Hazam: 221/11).


From this we may conclude that Omar did not see that death penalty must be applied to the apostate in all cases, it may be either dropped or deferred when necessary. In this situation, the necessity here is the state of war, closeness of the apostate group to Mushrekeen. Another possibility is that Omar saw that the Messenger's statement "Kill one who changes his deen" is made by virtue of the Messenger's (SWS) position as a leader of the Ummah and head of state. In other words, such decision fall within the responsibility of the executive authority and part of the legislative policy and not a fatwa or a command of Allah that binds the Ummah at any time, place or state. Therefore, sentencing an apostate to death is the authority of the Imam.


In my opinion, scholars put difference between strong and light innovation, similarly between strong and light levels of apostasy. They also made a difference among an apostate who propagates for his thoughts and one who does not. As much as the crime is strong, penalty must be harsh.


An apostate who propagates for his thoughts is not only a kafir, but also one who fights Allah and His Messenger and spreads corruption on earth. According to Ibn Taymiah, fighting is either physical or verbal which could be even harder in terms of religion. The Messenger (sallah Allah a`alyhee wa sallam), therefore, killed one who initiated verbal war against him while he refrained from doing so with those who undertook a physical fight against him. (refer to Sarem Masloul of Ibn Taymiah P. 385).


To conclude on this issue:


1. Judging one as an apostate is a serious issue which consequently deprives him of support and connectivity to the family and community as a whole. The ruler may even annul the marriage because a Muslim woman is not supposed to remain married to a non Muslim. While labeling one who is not a kafir as kafir is also a serious issue. A strong warning against this act is given in the Sunnah.


2. Only well versed scholars own the decision of apostasy. Those who can differentiate between certain and uncertain areas of fiqh. They only judge one who has no excuse as an apostate; such as one who denies items of religion known as obligatory, mocks contents of belief or shari`ah or publicly slanders Allah and His Messenger.


3. Only the legal ruler is authorized to apply the punishment based on the judgment of the concerned Islamic court which does not abide by other than Allah's book and Sunnah to which people may refer when they differ as per:" and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم), if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day." (Quran 4:59).


4. Scholars are consensus on the necessity to try and talk the apostate into repentance before enforcing the punishment. Ibn Taymiah even stated in his book Sarem Masloul that the companions agreed on giving a three day chance for one who slandered the Messenger to repent, while others saw to give him an infinitive chance. The point here is to give a chance for the person to reconsider his position hoping to arrive into a definite status that bears no doubt. Other modern scholars see that only Allah and not any human being owns the right of accepting repentance. However, this rule applies on matters of the Day After. As for provisions of this world (Dunia), we must accept the apparent Islam and repentance. We are not obliged to dig into people's hearts. Allah Commanded us to judge according to what we see while Allah Handles the interior. Therefore, the Messenger (Sallah Allah A`alyhee wa sallah) said: Those who testify that La ilaha ila Allah have protected their blood and money while their judgment is up to Allah in terms of what their hearts truly contain.


Based on this we say that allowing the common public the right to judge a person of apostasy that makes him eligible of a death sentence and death sentence only, and then enforce the punishment actually carries a major threat to human beings blood, money and reputation. This is because in such case a common person, who is not qualified, shall be charged with three authorities of Fatwa, judgment and execution.



Important points raised by Khairan - Shereen - 07-05-2004


Quote: <b>5. You mentioned salat. Muslims don't all offer their prayers in the same way, and don't even agree as to how many times a day they should be performed (Shias do three while Sunnis do five).</b>

<i> [Image: biggrin.gif] wow ! sis Muslimah that were great points u mentioned
</i>


but i think that it's even mentioned in Quran.........that Muslims duty is to pray 5 times a day? or adtagfi rullah iam mistaken? [Image: unsure.gif]



Important points raised by Khairan - Muslimah - 07-08-2004


Jazaki Allah Khairan Shereen for bringing up this thread, but the number of prayers are not mentioned actually in Quran. In this we follow the sunnah in regard to number and movements.


Insh a Allah will come to this point, I am trying to take things slowly in threads like this no need to rush just for the sake of replying. we need to learn more than win a debate.