How Jesus Christ (pbuh) Described The Glory Of Pro

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How Jesus Christ (pbuh) Described The Glory Of Pro - Muslimah - 10-12-2004

Peace ronni,

Brief as usual, two points:

U stated that u dont consider Barnabes authintic because it was written by someone who didnt even live during Jesus time. We conclude here that other Gospels were authored by people who lived during his time.

How can u take a book authored by man as a Holy book. Where is the word of Allah?

ronni, as u stated several times, u r so much happy the way u r, what motivated u then to come here and even read much deep about Quran before coming here?

See we can all explain several things clearly to u, but u keep saying I am not up to be convinced. Much difference between asking, receiving answers and forced to be convinced.

Execuse my brief posts always. u r already reading so much. [Image: smile.gif]

How Jesus Christ (pbuh) Described The Glory Of Pro - umm Zachariah - 10-12-2004

Ronniv93,

''But there are varying interpretations of the Quran just as there is for any other document. I'm a little confused by that statement. Even though a majority of Muslims today read from a standard text, there is yet variation....''

''O mankind! verily there hath come to you a convincing proof from your Lord: For We have sent unto you a light (that is) manifest.'' The Qur'an 4:174

First of all you MUST keep in mind that the Qur'an is not 'a document'. It is the REVEALED UNALTERED WORDS OF ALLAH, SWT, IN ARABIC forwarded via Jibreel to the Last Prophet Muhammad, SAWS. So this CANNOT even be thought of as trying to compare it with a common document. We are talking of REVEALED WORDS here!

Secondly if you like to call this 'a standard text' then this is your choice of wording, I prefer to call it the words revealed by Allah, SWT, in Arabic.

About different sects. This has NOTHING to do with the Qur'an - if there would be a thousand sects there still will be only ONE Qur'an.

''I have never understood this argument, because there is not a faith system on earth that doesn't have people with differing views/opinions.''

But there is still some FUNDAMENTAL BELIEFS that has to be fulfilled to be able to call oneself belonging to a special faith, no matter opinions.

''How, for instance, could a person claim to be a Muslim but then they also believe that Muhammad was not the last prophet? Wouldn't that be denying a very basic tenet/belief of Islam?''

Do you KNOW that there are any Muslims that do it? You forget that there is a MINIMUM demand to be able to call oneself a MUSLIM and that is to adhere to the five pillars of Islam. To believe that there is only One God and that is Allah, SWT, AND THAT MUHAMMAD IS HIS PROPHET, to pray 5 times a day, to pay Zakat, to fast during Ramadan and to go on Hajj. These 5 'points' are OBLIGATORY. So the belief you refer to should be easy to leave out, is in the first pillar, and you cannot pretend it isn't there. Maybe to fool yourself, but certainly not Allah, SWT.

''I guess I need to add that I agree that for the most part, you won't find a Muslim saying that the Quran has been altered. But then, that is probably just below blasphemy in Islam. ''

''Thus is the word of thy Lord proved true against those who rebel: Verily they will not believe.'' 10:33

You still are trying to get to the point that the Qur'an is not what Allah, SWT, states that it is. And I am sure you will still struggle much to find a Muslim that agrees with you. But Allah, SWT, has given you the challenge in the Qur'an to do just that, to prove what you state.

''Even when I've read the articles and documents that speak of the various manuscripts (and there are more than just 7 different variants and not just about pronunciation either), even then these same people will somehow deny that any substantial changes have taken place. Yet when I read their work, they clearly say that some wordings are different.''

You could leave some references.

Now is the question, from what SOURCES are you going to learn about the Qur'an? If you decide to do it from the Islamic point of view, which logically should be the right one if you want to know the truth, then we surely will be able to help you. BUT if you like to take it the other way around, from non-Islamic sources, and there are a LOT of them out there, then that is your choice.

Would you learn about the fundamentals of Christianity through Islamic and Jewish sources in first hand?

As I said, IF you are willing to learn from Islamic sources, we can help.

I am quite sure there might be a thread here somewhere of this subject, but I have not been hanging aroung long enough to know them all. Maybe some of the sisters of brothers can direct to them?

Regards

How Jesus Christ (pbuh) Described The Glory Of Pro - ronniv93 - 10-13-2004

Quote:How can u take a book authored by man as a Holy book. Where is the word of Allah?

I don't take anything for granted when it comes to interfaith dialogue, so we need to establish whether or not we have the same understanding of different terms for me to answer this question.

As an example, the term gospel means two totally different things to Muslims and Christians:

Muslim Definition: An actual book given to Jesus similar to how it was given to Muhammad.

Christian Definition: Literally the "good news" about Jesus Christ, independent of a physical book.

So here, when you say "authored by man", for me, there is no difference between the Bible and Quran. Both required that MEN wrote them down. Books didn't just fall from the sky, of course. [Image: smile.gif]

So, someone had to write them down.

But it was holy men of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit, who wrote. Never has the Bible, either OT or NT, claimed to be any different. There are places where God is speaking or has spoken directly and that is written down. But then, there are historical stories, songs of praise to God given, instructions for daily living, etc.

The Quran purports to be the literal speech of God, going through the angel Jibreel, to Muhammad and then other people wrote down what he said.

Quote:ronni, as u stated several times, u r so much happy the way u r, what motivated u then to come here and even read much deep about Quran before coming here?

Because I seek dialogue mainly. But also, I always wonder if there was just something I didn't get from others in my studying and talking, etc. Initially, on this board, I was curious to know what it is that would draw a person from Christianity to Islam.

Quote:See we can all explain several things clearly to u, but u keep saying I am not up to be convinced. Much difference between asking, receiving answers and forced to be convinced.

It's not really that; I don't mean to give that impression.

There are just some topics/issues that have been presented to me before (i.e., the pseudo-gospel of Barnabas) and I spent A LOT of time looking into the matter to search for the truth on it. When I come to a particular conclusion on something, after gaining knowledge, studying source information, and providing proofs, the issue become settled in my mind.

I have had to prove the pseudo-gospel of Barnabas false so many times to so many people.

Other things still are not answered in my mind.

How Jesus Christ (pbuh) Described The Glory Of Pro - ronniv93 - 10-13-2004

Umm_Zachariah

I said

Quote:''How, for instance, could a person claim to be a Muslim but then they also believe that Muhammad was not the last prophet? Wouldn't that be denying a very basic tenet/belief of Islam?''

Quote:You said,
Do you KNOW that there are any Muslims that do it? You forget that there is a MINIMUM demand to be able to call oneself a MUSLIM and that is to adhere to the five pillars of Islam.

Yes, I do. There's a whole group calling themselves "progressive Muslims".

They believe in Muhammad, but they would say that the Muslim confession of belief in him does not EXCLUDE other prophets from coming after him. They don't interpret "seal" to mean that there would never ben any more prophets to come after him. I haven't studied this in a while, but I think they believe that Muhammad was the last "apostle" but that's not exactly the same as "prophet".

They have web sites all and groups all over the internet that tell what they believe. They interpret the Quran differently from what I had ever heard before.

Quote:So the belief you refer to should be easy to leave out, is in the first pillar, and you cannot pretend it isn't there. Maybe to fool yourself, but certainly not Allah, SWT.

*I* am not trying to fool anyone, least of all myself. I'm just telling you what OTHERS, calling themselves Muslim, have said to me.

Quote:You still are trying to get to the point that the Qur'an is not what Allah, SWT, states that it is.

Again, I am doing no such thing. I am again telling you what OTHERS, calling themselves Muslim, have said. The fact that the Quran says it was revealed by Allah (the quote you gave me) is not equal to saying "This copy you are reading is exactly the same as the one first given to Muhammad."

Again, this information is all coming from Muslims.

Quote:And I am sure you will still struggle much to find a Muslim that agrees with you.

Please don't misunderstand my intentions. *I* did not have a position that I then tried to find support for. I had an open mind about everything, questioned everything, then looked for information from which to form an opinion.

I would not know of variant texts if Muslims hadn't talked about it.

Quote:You could leave some references.

I think I will do that. Probably start a separate thread just to leave some references and discuss them.

Quote:Now is the question, from what SOURCES are you going to learn about the Qur'an? If you decide to do it from the Islamic point of view, which logically should be the right one if you want to know the truth, then we surely will be able to help you. BUT if you like to take it the other way around, from non-Islamic sources, and there are a LOT of them out there, then that is your choice.

Why do keep assuming that I'm going to non-Muslim sources of information?

Everything I've said on this topic has come directly FROM Muslims.

Quote:Would you learn about the fundamentals of Christianity through Islamic and Jewish sources in first hand?

And I *HAVE* gotten this info from Muslims.

How Jesus Christ (pbuh) Described The Glory Of Pro - umm Zachariah - 10-13-2004

Hi Ronniv93,

I am sorry but I am not familiar with the expression 'progessive Muslims' it is the first time I hear it. Who might they be?

I am happy to say that I don't read web sites either that teaches what you say.

''They don't interpret "seal" to mean that there would never ben any more prophets to come after him.''

Perhaps not, but I am a follower of words of Allah, SWT, in the Qur'an - that is MY guidance to follow, not to add or withdraw anything from that. Real simple. Makes life very easy. So you should perhaps ask these people that you refer to why don't THEY follow what the Qur'an says - that would be a more righeous question to raise.

''Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.'' 33:40

So really Ronniv, if you want to discuss issues that don't correspond with the Muslim belief on this website that you now are visiting, then this will be very difficult. But it you still are willing to learn from US, then it will work well.

You are trying to make a lot of issues of issues that is not within the fundamental belief of Islam. The better approach would be, ''Do YOU believe like this and this?'' not ''Why DON'T you believe like this and this instead?'' NOW THAT could really lead to some ANSWERING of questions. I think it would be a much SIMPLER way for you to come to an understanding.

Regards

How Jesus Christ (pbuh) Described The Glory Of Pro - Muslimah - 10-14-2004

Hi ronniv

Umm Zachria explained well about progressive Muslims. However, I will stress, if anyone does not belive that Mohamed SAW is the final Messenger and Prophet. he is simply not Muslim.... regardless what they call themselves.

i always prefer to ask about the motive of being here. it helps us much. So even if u r seeking dialogue we will talk to u without giving u the impression we are forcing u. u ask we answer. but the problem with u ronni as Umm Zachria noticed is that u r not consistent. I mean u go get distorted info and come and put it.

(Is it not Muhammad who predicted that the ummah would eventually divide into 73 different sects? Are there not sects today that differ with one another? They differ with one another on one or more points. I actually found the list of names on the internet yesterday.)


very much true ronniv and this is enough to prove him the Messenger dont u think so??

I suggest something read the Quran use the sites I posted for u specially Quran 3 and Quran 19. U can not judge without reading it. U take other people's judgment and get busy with trying to prove the bible is authentic. Just read the Quran

if u lost the sites I gave u here u go:

www.qurancomplex.com

www.quran.nu

And we ourselves dont deny miracles made by the Will of Allah through Eassa (jesus).

How Jesus Christ (pbuh) Described The Glory Of Pro - shameem - 10-19-2004

to ronnie. the holy quran is the same book revealed 1400 hundred years ago letter by letter. what you need to do is to pick up the arabic versions and compare them. the english versions are just translations of the original. for non-arabic speaking individuals. furthermore try to find the translation by abdullah yusuf ali with english footnotes and the arabic original in one book. this will make it easy for you.

How Jesus Christ (pbuh) Described The Glory Of Pro - ronniv93 - 10-20-2004

Hello shameem.

I do have a Yusuf Ali translation. I have 2 other translations as well - one is by Ahmed Ali and the other is by Dr. Z. Hoque and it has the Arabic text in it (although it does me no good because I can't read or understand it).

Anyhow, I've read through Y. Ali's translation and started reading Ahmed Ali's.

If you say the Arabic is the exact same today as it was first revealed, well.... *which* revealed text are you referring to? Which of the 7 dialects? And then what about the others that cannot be attributed to mere dialect differences?

Most people here seem to be unaware of what I'm talking about, so I will just post a link to the site where you can read it for yourself. I actually bought this book myself to study and then found out it was completely online.

Quote:Other Views
Later on other views emerged, making ten or fourteen

well-known readings. In addition to the seven above, the

following make up the ten and the fourteen readers:

Chapter 5

Quote:In Sura al-baqara, which I take as an example, there are a
total of 101 variants. Most of them concern spelling, some also

choice of words (synonyms), use of particles, etc.

Chapter 2

Chapter 2 goes into a little detail about the variants, but not as much detail as I would like.

So, my question still is: Today's Arabic copy is the same as WHICH of the earlier one's? Some people's copies of the Quran had surahs in a different order, had some additional surahs, some had fewer.... Then there are hadith about some ayats that supposedly *should* be in the Quran, but aren't.

These are the kinds of questions I have about the Quran that I don't really get solid answers to. It seems like the questions get dodged and/or glossed over.

How Jesus Christ (pbuh) Described The Glory Of Pro - umm Zachariah - 10-20-2004

Hi Ronniv93,

IF you want us to answer you correctly you also have to give us the correct references. You have clearly stated the translaters to the different Qur'an that you have read or are about to read.

But then suddenly when you refer to 'inconsitencies' ABOUT the Qur'an then you suddenly refer to this only as 'this book'. No author, no title. If would be rather helpful if you could state what book you are referring to. Then we can take it from there.

Regards

How Jesus Christ (pbuh) Described The Glory Of Pro - shameem - 10-21-2004

to ronnie- whenever muslims recite prayers, they recite surahs right out of the quran word by word. if the person leading the prayers makes a mistake an individual behind him will correct him. this is the reason why the quran cannot be changed. it is memorized by many muslims all around the world young and old. if you go to any number of learned muslims and tell them to recite a particular verse, it will all be the same. yes there might be diffrences in english versions only because there are words in arabic that cannot be found in the english vocabulary. arabic is a very deep language. the oldest known quran i believe is sitting in the museum of cairo. it matches what we have today. the problem with the bible is that it was changed by hands of men . why is it that the 4 canonical gospels in the bible begin with "according to". it seems to me that they were opinions according to these writers. and this why they some of them contradict one another. some of these men did not even know christ. did you know thet there were originally 70 gospels but only 4 were chosen . why i don't know. the catholic church tried to hide many of them because a lot of them told the truth and they feared losing their powers over the people if the people knew the truth. i have heard many christians refute the gospel of barnabus even though it was translated from its original armaic to english by a couple of christian individuals. barnabus was with christ unlike theother so called disciples. the christianity we have today is the christianity found by paul mixed with roman paganism. even though you are protestant , protestants are it self is born from catholicism. i suggest you open up your mind and truly contemplate christianity and look at its origin and compare it with what jesus really said. remember that back in those days there were many ideas that had god/son relationships. for e.g. troy being the son of roman god hercules. this is where christianity got this idea so that it would appeal to the romans. peace.