Paul: How He Invented The Current Christian Faith

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Paul: How He Invented The Current Christian Faith - ronniv93 - 10-26-2004

Quote:All of a sudden Paul becomes "Immediately" an expert in Christianity & begins preaching it!

IMHO, the writer of this article is adding to the text. Nowhere does it say “Paul becomes ‘immediately’ an expert in Christianity”. It says that “Immediately”, he began to preach; nothing about being a so-called “expert”. I don’t know why he felt he needed to even make this comment.

Are all new Muslims told to “shut up” and keep their mouths shut until they become “experts” before they begin telling others what they know? I don’t think so. That is evident even on this discussion board.

Quote:And what does he preach: that Jesus is the son of God. Who taught him that? Where has he learned the principles of his preachings?

Does the author, here, forget that Paul was a Jew who persecuted Christians before? Why would he have done that? On what basis? On the basis that Paul KNEW what the Christians believed and taught and in his mind, at that time, it was wrong. Christianity, was spreading throughout the lands and began among the Jews themselves. So, why would the author think that Paul had never heard this before?

And as for “who taught him that”, perhaps he got it from these stories which, no doubt, were repeated among the disciples in their meetings/gatherings and even when they preached to others.

 Mt 27:43. "HE TRUSTS IN GOD; LET GOD RESCUE Him now, IF HE DELIGHTS IN HIM; for He said, `I am the Son of God.' " 

 Mt 27:54. Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"

Mk 1:1. The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Mk. 3:11. Whenever the unclean spirits saw Him, they would fall down before Him and shout, "You are the Son of God!"

Lk. 1:35 . The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

Lk. 22:70. And they all said, "Are You the Son of God, then?" And He said to them, "Yes, I am."

Jn. 3:18. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I could really go on and on as there are MANY more passages than this, but I think I’ve made the point.

Quote:Also, there is a historic flop as Damascus did not have synagogues at the time being an enemy of the Jews."

I wish that I could speak to the writer directly and ask him to furnish some evidence that there were no synagogues at this time. All I have right now is his personal assertion.

Nevertheless, the word “synagogue” does not refer only to a physical building, which I have to assume is what the writer is referring to. Any congregation or gathering of Jews for prayer, worship, etc. is called a “synagogue”. The use of the word “church” is similar. “Church” does not only make reference to a physical structure. Any Christian anywhere in the world is considered to be part of “the church”. Any gathering of Christian believers for the purpose of worship, prayer, praise, etc. is considered a “church” gathering.

He disputed with the Hellenists [Greeks] & they tried to kill him. When the brothers learned of this, they brought him to Caesarea & sent him to Tarsus."

One small remark, the occupants (at that time) were Romans & not Greeks!

Well, why did the author, then, translate “Hellenists” as Greeks? That’s not in the text. Again, looking at the original Greek textual word, we see what the term REALLY means:

1. A Hellenist

a. one who imitates the manners and customs or the worship of the Greeks, and use the Greek tongue

b. used in the NT of Jews born in foreign lands and speaking Greek

You don’t even really need a Biblical dictionary to get this definition. Anyone anywhere in the world can go to www.dictionary.com and look up the same word and see the same definitions.

Quote:And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch" Acts 11: 26. Isn't this strange? Jesus never gave his message, followers & disciples a particular name during his stay on earth. Now, several years after his ascent to heaven, there comes someone whom Jesus never met: a zealot enemy of his message who suddenly turns towards it because of an alleged vision of Jesus. Out of a sense of self-guilt & repentance for his previous attitudes or out of a cunning desire to degrade the message of its forgiving humble goodness content, this man (Paul) begins preaching a new religion exalting Jesus to the divine levels of God & gives it the name (Christianity) that the founder of it dared never use; a name implying that followers now worship Christ rather than the Creator of Christ, the Almighty God.

And where, might I ask, did the author get ALL these assumptions?? First of all, The text of Acts 11:26 nowhere says that Paul gave the disciples this name. Second of all, in studying the history of the Faith we call Christianity, we find out that it was actually NON-CHRISTIANS who first used that name and it was used in a derogatory manner against the disciples. It was a name meant to poke fun at them for imitating or following the way and life of Christ. So, Paul did not coin this name.

At this point, the author again makes more ugly statements about a person he has no real knowledge of, saying that Paul had a “cunning desire to degrade the message”. Well, what gives him the right to make THAT kind of statement? He doesn’t even prove this condemnation to be true.

Also, it is his own fault if he assumes that the name “Christian” implies that people “now worship Christ RATHER than the Creator of Christ.” I have never heard anyone come away with this interpretation until now, so that’s his own issue and no one else’s.

Quote:Furthermore, Paul disobeys the rules of preaching that his master had set, he preaches to non-Jews (Gentiles) & in a land far up north of where Jesus intended his message to be confined; "Jesus said 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel'" Mathew: 15: 24.

Wrong. Jesus says that HE was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, true although Jesus never refused to teach, minister to, heal, etc. anyone who came to Him out of faith, even if they were non-Jews[/i/]. Christ was only here on earth, preaching, for about 3 ½ years. His earthly mission was to deliver the message to those who had been stewards over the oracles of God – the Jews. I wish the author had gone on to quote Matthew 28:18-20 where Jesus COMMANDS the disciples to go into all the world and make disciples. There were no “rules for preaching”. This is a concept that the author himself has apparently made up.

Quote:4. While preaching in Cyprus, together with Barnabas, the Holy Book tells us that Saul has suddenly changed his name to Paul & no reasons are given, "Then Saul, who also is called Paul, became filled with the Holy spirit.." Acts 13: 9.

So what?

People’s name often changed when they became followers of the Lord. As far back as Abraham, we see this. Abraham was originally known as Abram and his wife was called Sarai. When God called them, their names were changed to Abraham and Sarah.

Jacob’s name was changed to “Israel”.

Jesus changed the names of one of His disciples.

Don’t even many Muslims change their names when they become Muslim? Especially if their given name has a bad meaning. I don’t understand why this was even brought up as an issue.

Quote:So what does this Saul or Paul say about his origin? We become really very much confused about a man who seems not to know his origin (or is deliberately changing or hiding it), a man who is sainted & considered the founder of the current Christian faith by most Christians.

More with the personal attacks and accusations. But let’s see where the author gets confused.

Quote:In Acts 16: 37 we find that Paul is Roman, "But Paul said to them, "They have beaten us publicly without being condemned in any trial even though we are Romans."

No problem so far.

Quote:In Acts 21: 37 Paul is thought to be an Egyptian, but he addresses the Jerusalem mob saying that he is a Jew from Tarsus; "

As I said earlier, so what? Because some people THOUGHT Paul was an Egyptian, that somehow proves that Paul was trying to deceive people about his identity?

He simply replies back that he is a Jew. No contradictions at all so far.

Quote:Then as Paul was about to be led to the barracks, he asked the commander in Greek, 'May I say something to you?' The commander said, "Do you speak Greek? Aren't you the Egyptian who sometime ago stirred up a revolt & led 4000 terrorists out into the desert?' Paul answered, 'I am a Jew from Tarsus in Cilicia…"

This is the same as the last statement. Another man thinks Paul is an Egyptian, but he corrects him by saying that he is a Jew.

You can study history and find out that there was an Egyptian living at the time who claimed to be a prophet and started a revolt leading a group known as the “Assassins”. The centurion thought that Paul might be this man, but Paul again corrects him.

Quote:In Acts 22: 25-28 Paul again insists that he was Roman, not a one who obtained the citizenship but born Roman, " As Paul was bound with thongs to be flogged, he said to the centurion [commander of 100 soldiers] who stood by, ' Is it lawful for you to scourge a Roman citizen who hasn't been found guilty?'…. the commander said to him, 'Are you Roman?' Paul said, 'Yes.' The commander said, 'I had to pay a big price to obtain my Roman citizenship.' And Paul said, 'But I was born a citizen [Roman]."

I have yet to see why the author is so confused. Could it be that he is simply TRYING to make the Bible look confusing when it’s really not?

Quote:Still, for more confusion, in Acts 23: 6 Paul shouts out loud that he is a Pharisee! " But when Paul perceived that some of the members of the Sanhedrin [high Jewish council] were Sadducees & the others Pharisees [2 different Jewish creeds], he cried out in the council 'My brothers I am a Pharisee & the son of a Pharisee.."

What exactly is the problem?

He is showing me that he doesn’t seem to have even a basic level of understanding. A Jew at that time was primarily a Jew by descent, by birth. They followed the Torah and Tanach. So, the religion was primarily confined to people of this particular race, that is of Hebrew descent. A Pharisee was simply a religious teacher BUT YET OF THE JEWISH FAITH. The fact that he was born a Roman citizen does not contradict this. J This is silly, actually.

It’s like saying that a person can’t be an Arab and yet be born in America. Isn’t that stupid?

One is a RACE and the other is a GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION.

Quote:5. To carry on with Paul's story (according to Acts), in Jerusalem Paul was arrested in the temple by Jews from Asia shouting…..

At this point, the author just goes into a loooooonnnnnggg section that seems to have nothing to do with anything as far as I can tell, so I’ll skip that part.

Quote:6. It is noticed that Paul has introduced in his preachings a lot of new rituals & beliefs that Jesus never preached. He told the Jews & Gentiles to turn away from Moses laws (commandments) [Acts 21: 21],

Is he deliberately misrepresenting the text? The passage does not SAY that Paul told Jews and Gentiles to turn away from the law of Moses. Another person came to TELL Paul that THAT was what OTHER people were saying ABOUT him.

Quote:especially circumcision (Acts 15:2).

This passage does not say that either. The chapter begins by saying that there was some group or sect of people who came teaching that one could not be SAVED unless they were circumcised. So, the matter was put to the apostles and elders to address. And it is PETER who stands and reiterates the point that all men are saved by GRACE and this was proven by the fact that even Gentiles had received the Holy Spirit APART from being circumcised. In this chapter, Paul does not directly address the topic of circumcision at all!

Quote:He was a hypocrite that talked to every sect in the way they believe, as when he circumcised his follower Timothy (Acts 16:3)

No, Timothy was circumcised because they knew that this issue was still a cause of stumbling for certain Jews.

Quote:while preaching among the Jews of Derbe & Lystra (despite being against circumcision Galatians 5:2/3:12);

Those passages do not say that Paul is against circumcision. His belief is that circumcision DOES NOT SAVE a person. He says that circumcision does not BENEFIT a person, because we are saved THROUGH FAITH, according to Gal. 5. Galatians chapter 3 does not even have the word circumcision or circumcised in it, so I don’t know where his reference came from.

Quote:& as he did with the Greeks in Athens when he felt distressed by the many idol statues he saw there & yet when he preached the Athenians he told them that the altar they had on which is inscribed "To an unknown God" could be worshiped as The Almighty God creator of the world (Acts 17: 16-25) .

I’m about 2 steps away from concluding that this author is intentionally trying to mislead.

In no way, shape or form does Paul tell anyone to worship some altar. It distressed him to SEE the idol worship. He TAKES NOTE OF an altar with this inscription written on it and then begins to PROCLAIM to them WHO the true God is. He didn’t tell them that this piece of stone could be worshipped as God. Where did he get this from????

Quote:Other signs of his hypocrisy are encountered in his praise for the Old Testament (Moses law) when he is addressing Jews [as in Romans 1:16/2:13/3:31/7:12], yet he degrades the book & the law when talking to non-Jews [Galatians 2:16/3:1-3/3:11-12/3:19/4:5].

He NEVER degrades the Law. Another false statement.

Quote:He introduced some pagan rituals into Christianity {as offering sacrifice, Acts 14:13

What is he talking about? Paul is not shown in this passage as “introducing” anything. The verse actually says “The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds.” He came out saying this because Paul had just healed a man who had been lame (i.e., unable to walk) since his birth. The people of that town then thought that Paul and Barnabas were gods, so they came out to make sacrifice to them.

Let’s look at Paul’s reaction:

Quote:Acts 14:14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out
Acts 14:15 and saying, "Men, why are you doing these things ? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.

Paul is STOPPING them; PLEADING with them not to do this. He argues that he and Barnabas are just men, same as they are and points them back to the God who created the heaven, earth and see and all that is in them.

Quote:and forming churches & churchmen hierarchy, Acts 14:23/20:28,

He didn’t “form” or establish “churchmen hierarchy”. The text does not even specifically say WHO set this up. But does it not make some sense? When you have a large community of people (whether religious or not), there needs to be some structure to everything or else there is chaos and nothing gets done. OR you end up with heretics among you. God Himself established structure and hierarchy back in the days of Moses.

Quote:and also in Turkey (Corinth & Ephesus) when he found that disciples of John the Baptist had preceded them there preaching the true religion, he invented the ritual of receiving the Holy Spirit in baptization, Acts 19}.

Hehehehehe. . . . Now, this one was funny. It actually made me laugh. Paul “invented” BAPTIZATION???

LOOOL. What is “baptization”?

Anyway, if you go back to the Gospels themselves, you will see that John the Baptist, the forerunner to Jesus, declares that Jesus would come after him and BAPTIZE people with the Holy Ghost. The first gathering of disciples after Jesus’ ascension into Heaven was BAPTIZED with the Holy Ghost. Mary, the mother of Jesus, was there with 119 other disciples and they were ALL baptized (not baptization) BEFORE Paul was a believer.

This didn’t start with Paul, but with Jesus Christ Himself.

Paul: How He Invented The Current Christian Faith - radiyah - 10-29-2004

Quote: Hi Radiyah,
Thank you for clarifying what he/she meant by "asking forgiveness."

It is a reasonable request to ask someone to furnish proof of what they state or claim, so let me begin. The article is rather lengthy, so I'll have to conduct this in parts or sections.

U r welcome Ronn [Image: smile.gif]

. And thanku for furnishing answers.

Now let me write down here my own opinion.

Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem( In The Name of God Most Gracious Most Merciful)

We start our speach with the name of God One God we Worship, so are we as muslims claiming that there is another God than Him, In arabic we call him Allah, so is that different, in a previous post we both agreed me and u that there is no one who is worthy of worship but one God right? so here we stand on one solid ground Ronni, One God One Creator [Image: smile.gif]

.

Now as for me I never read the Bible or Torah as a whole, I just read bits and pieces of it which of course I was not convinced with. But this is not the big issue, the issue is that I do not need to read the Bible or Torah while we have our own Book The Quran the only one book that has never been changed since 1425 years, which initself a miracle, Allah stated in The Holy Quran That he will preserve it and it was preserved, how was it to be known for Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) as a human being that it will be preserved?

Bismillah Al-ahman Al-Raheem:

9. Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur'ân) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption) . 15, Surat Al-Hijr.

Now to me when a christian or a jew come and ask me why Islam, and ask me questions about Islam I will answer about that, I will present my proofs to that from Quran and Sunnah, if u were not convinced that does not mean that The Quran is wrong or Islam is not a true relegion, it means I was mistaken or I miss presented my answers.

Also to me with full respect to my brothers, I have The Quran and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) as strong proof that Islam is the only relegion that is accepted by God, I do not need to prove the Bible or the Torah are wrong by Quoting from it, Our Holy Quran has enough Proof for that which I will Quote from.

Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem:

64. Say (O Muhammad ): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allâh, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allâh. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."

65. O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Why do you dispute about Ibrâhim (Abraham), while the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) were not revealed till after him? Have you then no sense?

66. Verily, you are those who have disputed about that of which you have knowledge. Why do you then dispute concerning that which you have no knowledge? It is Allâh Who knows, and you know not.

67. Ibrâhim (Abraham) was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true Muslim Hanifa (Islâmic Monotheism - to worship none but Allâh Alone) and he was not of Al-Mushrikûn (See V.2:105).

68. Verily, among mankind who have the best claim to Ibrâhim (Abraham) are those who followed him, and this Prophet (Muhammad ) and those who have believed (Muslims). And Allâh is the Walî (Protector and Helper) of the believers.

83. Do they seek other than the religion of Allâh (the true Islâmic Monotheism worshipping none but Allâh Alone), while to Him submitted all creatures in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly. And to Him shall they all be returned.

84. Say (O Muhammad ): "We believe in Allâh and in what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qûb (Jacob) and Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qûb (Jacob)] and what was given to Mûsa (Moses), 'Iesa (Jesus) and the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one another among them and to Him (Allâh) we have submitted (in Islâm)."

85. And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.

3, Al-Imran

Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem:

1. In the Name of Allâh, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

2. All the praises and thanks be to Allâh, the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

3. The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

4. The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)

5. You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

6. Guide us to the Straight Way

7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

This Surra is called The Opening, in this Surrah Allah The most beneficient, Summerizes in 7 short ayas, what is in the Whole Holy Quran, as a begining, which describes God's greatness and onnes and why should we worship him, and that we should ask his guidance to the straight path and not as those who earned God's anger or those who went astray. It focused on the right guidance at its best onnes and uniqness of God, and that we should ask that Guidance from only him, in order to live in the most pleasing way and when we ask Allah we should be polite and most humble in asking him, since we are his creations and slaves, we do not need any media between us and Him Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala.

This is Islam in short, full submission to one God who created the heavens and earth, who no1 is capable of reaching to him physically in this world, or him being on the earth or even his soul in any creation of his. He is One Unique, nothing is like Him, He never eats or sleeps, or do anything we humans do, then how can he look after all this huge universe if he just leave it alone for a second.

Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem:

255. Allâh! Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber, nor sleep overtake Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He knows what happens to them (His creatures) in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter . And they will never compass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His Kursî extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. [This Verse 2:255 is called Ayat-ul-Kursî.]

This is Allah The devine who does not sleep or slumber, does not eat does not do anything as humans do again He is Devine He is Unique. So are we as muslims saying anything that is against the slightest right intellect. U as a human being Ronni are Unique in your creation, there is no1 like u, not before not now, and prove to that is your finger prints, right [Image: smile.gif]

, and new proof now I saw a program the other day called high tech, a new gadget has been created for staff to enter their office is by the eye print, because that was proven also that no one eye is the same as the other. So if u as a human being unique in your creation then what about The Creator?

Now in a previous post u said u read The Quran, and u came to The conclusion that the verses do not relate to each other, which I told u they do. And I said it was not a novel or a story that u will read overnight just to pass time, it is a way of life. From The Holy Quran many sciences were derived, it contains everything. So it needs a long life study, and no matter how much u study it u will still dig out knowledge from it. Even we as muslims, if we say that we know everything in The Quran, then only then we are Ignorant, even our Scholars, they do not claim full knowledge, because they know that The Quran is a book of Faith and knowledge till the day of resurriction. The Surras in The Quran each of them has important main points which are:

- Date of Revelation.

- The subject of The Surrah and its purpose or aim.

- The method of speach and way of approach.

- The merit or advantages of The Surrah and its status or degree.

Now I will talk a bit about the method, and I will leave the rest for now (they will need lots of explanation). In the method of speech there is direct speech and indirect, the direct is we may say understandable, the indirect then needs explanation, here comes the turn of The Hadeeth which translates to us those undirect verses or those who are vague(by us mere human beings, since this is the word of Our Creator) and un-understandable, and even the Hadeeth itself is taught to him by Allah through Gabriel, He does not speak or utter a word from his own self.

Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem:

1. By the star when it goes down, (or vanishes).

2. Your companion (Muhammad ) has neither gone astray nor has erred.

3. Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.

4. It is only an Inspiration that is inspired.

5. He has been taught (this Qur'ân) by one mighty in power [Jibrael (Gabriel)].

Now u will ask me why should I beleive Muhammad(Pbuh), then I will answer, because of his high Morals, no1 did ever have high morals as him, his truthfulness and trustworthy, even those who were Kuffar approved of his honesty and truthfulness, his roots and descendants are to our father Abraham so what more noble blood do we need. Never did he lie, never did he ask for worldly gains, never did he commit adultry, and he was loved by all at his time, and those who disbeleived in him, the Kuffar, was out of envy and becasue Islam came and made everybody equal no1 is better than any, no racial discremination, deep down inside their hearts they knew(the kuffar) that he said the truth but they denied it for their own worldly gains. Now I will ask u if u have a collegue at work, who has high morals, never lied, doesnt drink, does not commit adultry, respect people, rich and poor, and helps every1, would u not beleive him if he told u anything, Why? because he never lied, and he was raised on high morals. So was our Prophet never ever did he tell a lie in his life, he is the most noble person on earth, and The word of Allah is enough proof for that :

Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem :

4. And verily, you (O Muhammad ) are on an exalted standard of character., 68, Al-Qalam

Now I know I talked much this time, but what my aim was actually is that the basis I will set any dialogue with u or any other non muslim, is The Quran & The Sunnah since u come asking questions about islam, if u do not accept or u r not convinced, then no compulsry it is your own choice with full respect, I do not need to attack u or u attack me. And I do not need to show the faults of any other books because I did not read them and I will not, The proof is already in The Holy Quran which is enough for me as a muslim, and I will also leave this to my fellow Muslims who were christians who reverted who know in the Bible more than me, which I still stress being as muslim The Quran(The Unique Word of Allah-SWT-) and Sunnah(Speech of our Prophet-PBUH-) are enough proof.

No offense to any1, may Allah The Almighty accept from me, all that I write is to please The only One God and Creator Allah The Merciful, if I am right it is from Allah(SWT) if I am wrong it is from my own mistake ignorance, and the devil.

Peace