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Abrogation - ronniv93 - 03-10-2005
Muslimah....
Don't think that I wasn't open to the approach you were taking. I am just now (as in, 3 minutes ago) getting a chance to even read your response. I was out travelling for my job and haven't been online for 2 days.
Give me a little time to REALLY read what you've posted.
I go out of town AGAIN next week (whew!), so I may be slow in replying then also.
Abrogation - Muslimah - 03-11-2005
Bismillah
No problem, I already posted the other part and Insh a Allah will conitnue.
We can not use this approach now that is fine we say
Qaddar Allahu mash a fa`al
Allah Decreed and His Will was enforced
Abrogation - ronniv93 - 03-11-2005
After having read your response, I have to admit that through much of it, I was almost totally lost. In terms of the Arabic language, and the placement of this object term before the verb, etc., etc., etc..... pretty much ALL of that flew right over my head.
But I started picking up on things later on in the post. So, it seems from what you've psoted that you're leading to the idea that abrogration WITHIN the Quran is NOT supported by Islam? Correct me if I'm wrong on that.
Abrogation - Muslimah - 03-11-2005
Bismillah
I expected somthing of that sort, yet I took the chance of trying to explain the grammatical part. Actually it was worth a try. How about if u hold on till I carry on with the rest of the topic Insh a Allah [img]style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]
Abrogation - Muslimah - 03-12-2005
Bismillah
as salam alykom Umm
let me know if u faced the same difficulty with the grammer style explanation here, your feedback will be much appreciated.
Abrogation - Muslimah - 03-12-2005
Bismillah
Building on the Ayahs
" Verily! We have adorned the near heaven with the stars (for beauty).* And to guard against every rebellious devil.* They cannot listen to the higher group (angels) for they are pelted from every side.* Outcast, and theirs is a constant (or painful) torment.* Except such as snatch away something by stealing and they are pursued by a flaming fire of piercing brightness." (Quran 37:6- 10)
Before quoting the coming Ayah which I already used above, I like to explain to u, since I am not quoting the whole Surah (chapter). The Sura is titled Al Jinn. Jinn is the other creation Allah made accountable also as per: " And I (Allah) created not the jinns and humans except they should worship Me (Alone)." (Quran 51:56).
They are another kind of creation including, exactly just as mankind, those who are believer, non believers who are the devils. Satan was one of them to start with. It will be even more useful if u read the whole Sura for more detail. Let us just focus on the core of interest here:
Allah Say:"'And we have sought to reach the heaven; but found it filled with stern guards and flaming fires.* 'And verily, we used to sit there in stations, to (steal) a hearing, but any who listens now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush." (Quran 72:8-9)
There were some misleading information made in regard to Surat Najm which ends with an Ayah that requires one to go into a prostration position even while reciting and it is called Sujud Tilawa which means prostration of reciting. In this chapter Allah states names of three idols. When the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam recited this Surat while in Kaba`a he reached the prostration position and immediately went into the ground for it (prostrated on the ground).
A number of the pagans where standing behind him accidentally listening to the recitation, taken by the recitation they automatically went into sujud as well.
Later on when they were blamed by their people for doing so, they claimed that they only made Sujud because the Messenger (astaghfer Allah) praised the idols while reciting Quran which according to some old scholars were removed from the Surah (abrogated). The old scholars say that astaghfer Allah satan was able to place words on the Messenger's mouth to say praising the idols.
Looking carefully at the above mentioned Ayahs which explain how the devils used to behave before Quran was revealed. They were able to sit in hidden stations to pick news, go back to earth and throw it to their fellow man fortune tellers. They were surprised as exactly stated in the Ayah that they can do this no more because of the heavy guarding system.
How on earth would the Messenger salla Allah a`lhyee wa sallam be left by who? By Allah to capture words said by devils WHILE RECITING QURAN to also include the words in the Ayah? The Ayahs I quoted above explain in full detail making it crystal clear that this could never happen. Allah Protected heavily and strongly His final revelation from any sort of corruption. Leave alone devils adding to the text of the chapter and the Messenger repeating it.
If u check the hadeeth related to Surat Najm and the situation that took place, Abdullah Ibn Masoud say:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Masoud may Allah be pleased with him that the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam recited Surt Najm at Mecca when he prostrated at the prostration position and all who were attending prostrated as well except an old man who took a hand full of stones or dust and placed it over his forehead saying this suffices, I saw him later on when he was killed as a kafir" (reported by Bukhari).
This is just an example of the hadeeth related to this situation. Had this happened (astaghferu Allah), it should have been verified in a hadeeth. Or Allah Would have included it in a clear Ayah. It is totally unlikely that this happens.
But modern scholars when they are confronted with this matter, they fear to oppose old renowned scholars who some of them didn’t know how to deal with the situation. Some of them say, if this happened, the best explanation is so and so. If this happened. They don’t bother to measure the incident according to Quran and Sunnah and say no this never happened.
Me personally I take the freedom to say this could have never happened.
To be continued Insh a Alla, I really prefer to take this on slowly and step by step
Abrogation - umm Zachariah - 03-12-2005
Bismillah,
Assalamu aleikum sister Muslimah,
When it comes to Arabic and grammatic, well it is hard for me, but I do think I gripped what you explained.
Sister you explain it very clearly, what you write is like a spice, that you did not know was missing before you finally tasted it. [img]style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif[/img]
Wasalam
Abrogation - Muslimah - 03-12-2005
Bismillah
Alhamdulelah, Alhamdulelah, Alhamdulelah
All credit is to Allah, i dont claim any for myself.
Abrogation - Muslimah - 03-14-2005
Bismillah
I like to take this chance before continuing on the subject to explain more on the grammatical part of this Ayah since it is very important.
Allah Say:
Inna nahun nazalan adkhir wa inna lahuh lahafezoun.
The sentence in Arabic is either a name or verb sentence.
In a verb sentence, it is constituted of a very + subject (doer) + object (done on)
This is the regular form. But since the Arabic language is a very rich and full of eloquencey, the Quran also stands as The model example of Arabic elequency, in other words, we learn Arabic from Quran style. Allah Creates forms of sentence in certain positions to underline and specify the importance of matters over others.
For example: Allah in Surat Baqarah Say:
"wa idh ebtala Ibraheema Rabuhu" which translates literally as "and when the Lord of Ibraheem Tested him" But the regular form should have been" wa idh ebtala Rubu Ibraheem Ibraheema" Note the difference. That is why Ibraheem has a fatah making it sound Ibraheema because here it is the object (done on) while Rabuhu is certainly the subject (doer) having a dama to make it sound hu. Otherwise if the fatha is not on the last letter of Ibraheem the meaning could be totally switched and will be totally haram (unlawful). But because Allah Meant to confirm the act of testing, Allah Put the object before the subject for confirmation and stress purpose.
Now let us go back to our sentence here:
The sentence say:" inna nahun nazalna adhikr wa inna lahu lahafezoun"
Insh a Allah I will break it down for better understanding:
Inn is a particle of confirmation that is succeeded with a plural prefix which is a making it inna.
Then again the plural pronoun: nahun= we
Can u follow? two terms of confirmation.
Then comes the verb of send down= nazzal conjugated into plural form making it nazzalna
Adhkir= the object here
Then again wa= and
Lahu = to it because the underlined letter lam is an indication particle and to identify the item that is identified it is succeeded with the prefix hu which is it.
But to put this word before the verb of protection gives a more sense of an overly protected item.
Lahafezun = again it started with the lam of confirmation rather than the regular form that could be hafezounuh. The verb here is conjugated into plural making it hafezoun and instead of putting the uh at the end to refer to the object Allah made a clear confirmation by replacing it with lahuh then place the verb with the lam of confirmation.
Hope I cleared it a bit
Abrogation - Muslimah - 03-19-2005
Bismillah
The Quran has been, being and will continue to be the foundation of Islam, it has always been, still is and will continue to be under attack in terms of authenticity.
The main goal of any one who desires to invalidate Islam is to invalidate the Quran which contains what Islam is.
Now what is Quran? Quran is the methodology, the curriculum of life, the manual of a Muslim. Being so, it is a comprehensive book containing detailed texts on the life related matters, including but not limited to marriage, death, inheritance, treatment of self and others, family, manners, food, punishment, economy, social texture, …etc. only to name a few topics. It sets rules and regulation related to different situations including fighting in the name of Allah, prayer during fighting, traveling and more. Now if I say that Allah revealed rules, then abrogated them, it makes it seem like Allah Changed His mind (astaghferu Allah). As I explained regarding the first Ayahs I quoted.
And I will take the chance of reviewing the following Ayahs again:
"To Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth, and whether you disclose what is in your ownselves or conceal it, Allah will call you to account for it. Then He forgives whom He wills and punishes whom He wills. And Allah is Able to do all things." (Quran 2:284)
"Allah burdens not a person beyond his scope. He gets reward for that (good) which he has earned, and he is punished for that (evil) which he has earned." (Quran 2:285)
Those who call this abrogation miss the point that there is not change of rule or any contradiction but rather a warning from Allah for us to take His Capabilities well in consideration. Just to keep in mind that whatever we conceal or disclose in ourselves Allah knows because He is the Allah Knowing who at the same time Does not burden a soul more than it can take. This is even explained more in the following Ayah:
"And there is no sin on you if you make a hint of betrothal or conceal it in yourself, Allah knows that you will remember them, but do not make a promise of contract with them in secret except that you speak an honourable saying according to the Islamic law (e.g. you can say to her, "If one finds a wife like you, he will be happy"). And do not consummate the marriage until the term prescribed is fulfilled. And know that Allah knows what is in your minds, so fear Him. And know that Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Forbearing." (Quran 2:235) No contradiction, know that Allah Knows what is in your minds but also He is Oft Forgiving Most Forbearing.
Sobhan Allah. How can we say that the second Ayah annulled the first one. Both complement each other and serve as a warning tool for us to try and be careful even with what we conceal.
There is a very famous topic that people refer to as abrogation, that the Quran included an Ayah setting the punishment of stoning, then Allah removed it, but the ruling remained to be taken from the Sunnah. Even when one reads the claimed Ayah, anyone can easily see that the style can never be a part of Quran.
A number of scholars quote Omar saying that stoning was included in Quran. With a simple thought of this quote one can easily make out that what Omar meant was that Allah by virtue of the following Ayah:
“It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.” (Quran 33:36)
Allah Gave the legislation authority to His Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam. Based on this Omar sees that if the Messenger sat the stoning rule, he did this according to his legislative authority given in Quran as above.
If we take in consideration that there are many people who tried to take the challenge and compose Quran, an early example is even Musaylema the laiar. We can understand how this worked.
But I think wallhu a`lam that the issue is related to I want to be very careful in expressing this, when old scholar couldn’t make the link between two Ayahs they saw it as abrogation. However if we follow this, we will say that for example the Quran that was revealed in Medina abrogated that revealed in Mecca. What is the point of keeping it in the book then what is the point of revealing it then. This is Allah Talking to mankind.
To be continued Insh a Allah