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Prophecy in the Quran and Suras - reepicheep - 06-02-2006
wel_mel_2 wrote::
> To add something between brackets is something normal
> when translating the original text to any other foreign
> language; we find that in the Bible too. For example we
> read verses like "And Jesus himself began to be about
> thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of
> Joseph". You know well that since the words (as was supposed)
> are between brackets means that they were not inspired by
> God, (and by the way they are not found in the original text)
> but for the translator to clarify the meaning and not to
> create any doubt. he puts his own words in brackets
Your claim about the bible is wrong. Although it is common, in English language translations of the Koran, to include clarifying words, I have never seen a version of the bible do so. Certainly, none of the major translations insert clarifying remarks in brackets.
The example you give of Luke 3:21 is incorrect. The phrase "as was supposed" is definitely included in the original manuscripts. Perhaps another English language version will be clearer to you. Here is the same verse as it appears in "The New English Bible":
> When Jesus began his work he was about thirty years old,
> the son, as people thought, of Joseph...
Note there is nothing in brackets.
Prophecy in the Quran and Suras - wel_mel_2 - 06-02-2006
Bismillah:
Quote:Your claim about the bible is wrong. Although it is common, in English language translations of the Koran, to include clarifying words, I have never seen a version of the bible do so. Certainly, none of the major translations insert clarifying remarks in brackets.
The example you give of Luke 3:21 is incorrect. The phrase "as was supposed" is definitely included in the original manuscripts. Perhaps another English language version will be clearer to you. Here is the same verse as it appears in "The New English Bible":
> When Jesus began his work he was about thirty years old,
> the son, as people thought, of Joseph...
Note there is nothing in brackets.
Long time no see reep....
ok here we gooooooooooooo....
First this verse to be found in <b>Luke 3:23 </b> and not verse 21
Some of your fellow Christians will not accept “your Bible” to be the word of God and they will call it corrupted. Because they believe in another version to be the accurate word of God. Go and check the most popular Bible today which is the King James Version and you will see that the words (as was supposed) are in brackets.
If you don’t believe in the KJV then go and check these versions:
<b>- The American Standard Version.
</b>
And Jesus himself, when he began [to teach], was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph,
As you can see the words ‘to teach and the words (as was supposed) are in brackets.
<b>- English Standard Version.
</b>
Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,
Again brackets.
<b>- New King James Version.
</b>
Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli,
<b>- Third Millennium Version.</b>
And Jesus Himself had become about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, who was the son of Heli,
<b>- The New Revised Standard Version </b>
Jesus was about thirty years old when he began his work. He was the son (as was thought) of Joseph son of Heli,
<b>- The Revised Standard Version.</b>
Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,
<b>- The Douay-Rheims Bible</b>
And Jesus himself was beginning about the age of thirty years: being (as it was supposed) the son of Joseph, who was of Heli, who was of Mathat,
<b></b>
- The KJV Strong's Version
And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (5752) (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
<b>- GOD'S WORD TRANSLATION.
</b>
Jesus was about 30 years old when he began [his ministry]. Jesus, so people thought, was the son of Joseph, son of Eli,
This time the words “his ministry” between brackets.
<b>- Hebrew Names Version of World English Bible </b>
Yeshua himself, when he began to teach, was about thirty years old, being the son (as was supposed) of Yosef, the son of Eli,
<b>- World English Bible</b>
Jesus himself, when he began to teach, was about thirty years old, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,
<b>- The Bible in Basic English</b>
And Jesus at this time was about thirty years old, being the son (as it seemed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,
<b>- Weymouth New Testament </b>
And He--Jesus--when He began His ministry, was about thirty years old. He was the son (it was supposed) of Joseph, son of Heli,
Do I need to go for more Or you believe me now?
By the way, here is the quotation from the Greek text.
Luke 3:23 http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~fisher/tmpdir/gnt/030323.gif
Now this the verse from the original Greek Scripture, do you see any brackets? To be honest I don’t know where are the words “as was supposed” here because I don’t speak Greek. But the question is, even if the words are there, where are the brackets? If the words are written without brackets in the original text, then why should your translators add brackets?
Salam
Wael.
Prophecy in the Quran and Suras - Muslimah - 06-02-2006
Bismillah
salam all
welcome back reepi
Let me focus on something very important here.
The brackets issue.
Quran, being the word of Allah, which is known of an incomparable language. Actually, the language of Quran per se, is its major miracle. Allah Challenged mankind who were present at that time, who excelled in Arabic language. I mean they were masters of the language. No one at that time can challenge them when it comes to linguist abilities. Allah, thus, Gave Mohamed prayer and peace be upon him, like all other Messengers and Prophets who were supported by miracles from Allah. Jesus was able to revive the dead and heal the hopless diseases, Mussa had his stick with which he performed several miracles.
I will try to remain in focus, the Arabic language of Quran is the challenge, is the miracle. That is why Allah Say:
"And if you are in doubt
Concerning that
Which We have sent down
To Our slave,
<b>Then produce a chapter like it
</b> And call your witnesses besides Allah,
If you are truthful." (Quran 2:23)
This is the challenge and concurrenly a prophecy. Matter of fact, there was a whole site dedicated to this ayah in particular in which the developers were trying to produce a chapter like it. They, without realizing, served to fulfill this prophecy and prove the authenticity of Quran.
Now back to the bracket issue. Having said the above mentioned. Quran in Arabic does not contain any brackets, neither anyone dares to add or take off the Arabic text. As for the translations, those are translations of the meaning, I mean for ex: a Muslim who is in a major state of impurity, is not allowed to touch the Quran (arabic book), but can touch the book containing the translation of the meaning, because Allah Revealed the Arabic text not the english or french..etc. Those who strive to allow access to the meanings of Quran, may Allah Reward them much, try their best to convey the meanings which sometimes becomes very difficult and requires to give their own explanation. Being a translator myself I know this very well. Arabic and English are totally two different languages, in most cases you cannt produce one word to convey the Arabic and vise versa. Sometimes even in the regular texts I work with, I need to explain one Arabic word into a paragarph. So, putting brackets in the translation of the meanings of Quran is due to this.
But the Arabic original has nothing as such, no one dares to do so.
Prophecy in the Quran and Suras - Curious Christian - 06-02-2006
Wel Mel.
You mentioned that you believe that some of what is written in the Bible is the word of God but not all of it.
I would be curious (since I am CURIOUS Christian) to know which books or parts of the bilble you do believe to be the word of God.
Also, another question for you or Muslimah....
I've noticed that many Chapters in the Quran mirror or retell or reteach things which are found in the Bible. What is the explanation for this? Did Mohammed believe the Bible or part of it to be the word of God too?
Thanks
Wel Mel. I was interested in your answer concerning the embryo development in the Quran.
I thought that you may find this interesting.
The Bible states that each star is different from the other thousands of years before this was confirmed by science:
1 Corinthians 15:41
There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
The Bible also stated that the earth was suspended in space thousands of years before it was known:
Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing.
Also, to get back to where man came from issue:
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
AND
Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.
Insight into the atmosphere and vapor thousands before it was discovered:
Job 36:27-29
For He draws up drops of water,
Which distill as rain from the mist,
Which the clouds drop down
And pour abundantly on man.
Indeed, can anyone understand the spreading of clouds,
The thunder from His canopy?
The Bible told us that clouds contain water...thousands of years before we knew it:
Job 26:8
He binds up the water in His thick clouds,
Yet the clouds are not broken under it.
Hydrothermal vents are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC—more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science:
Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Job 38:16
Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
The Bible told us the earth was round:
Isaiah 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
Just a few....
Prophecy in the Quran and Suras - Muslimah - 06-02-2006
Bismillah
Quote:Wel Mel.
Also, another question for you or Muslimah....
I've noticed that many Chapters in the Quran mirror or retell or reteach things which are found in the Bible. What is the explanation for this? Did Mohammed believe the Bible or part of it to be the word of God too?
Thanks
Salam Curious, let me re phrase you question and see if i got it right, u mean to say what does the Quran say about the bible, since Quran was not authored by Prophet Mohamed prayer and peace be upon him.
Ok:
"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby." (Quran 2:79)
"And indeed, We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear signs and supported him with the Holy Spirit [Gabriel]. Is it that whenever there came to you a Messenger with what you yourselves desired not, you grew arrogant? Some, you disbelieved and some, you killed.* And they say, "Our hearts are wrapped!" Nay, Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so little is that which they believe. *And when there came to them (the Jews), a Book (this Qur'an) from Allah confirming what is with them [the Torah and the Gospel], although aforetime they had invoked Allah (for coming of Muhammad) in order to gain victory over those who disbelieved, then when there came to them that which they had recognised, they disbelieved in it. So let the Curse of Allah be on the disbelievers." (Quran 2:87-89)
"Verily, those who conceal the clear proofs, evidences and the guidance, which We have sent down, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book, they are the ones cursed by Allah and cursed by the cursers.*" (2:159)
"O People of the Scripture! Now has come to you Our Messenger explaining to you much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture and pass over much. Indeed, there has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book." (Quran 5:15)
I dont want to flood u with verses of Quran, since u dont believe in it at the first place.
Thus, the conclusion is that Quran teaches that those who received Torah and Injeel (Bible) through their Moases and Jesus, either changed or deleted parts of it to serve their own interest. Mainly the Jews deleted the part that fully and clearly describes the Messenger Mohamed to the tiniest details in order to reject his call and refuse to admit he is the final Messenger.
This is the position of Quran on the books revealed before it to the Messengers specifically Moases and Jesus prayer and peace be upon all of them.
Prophecy in the Quran and Suras - Curious Christian - 06-02-2006
Quote:Thus, the conclusion is that Quran teaches that those who received Torah and Injeel (Bible) through their Moases and Jesus, either changed or deleted parts of it to serve their own interest. Mainly the Jews deleted the part that fully and clearly describes the Messenger Mohamed to the tiniest details in order to reject his call and refuse to admit he is the final Messenger.
This is the position of Quran on the books revealed before it to the Messengers specifically Moases and Jesus prayer and peace be upon all of them.
I don't know about that. The Dead Sea Scrolls (20BC - 100AD) even show the OT to be as it is today.
If the Jews removed prophecy in the OT about the Prophet Mohammed then wouldn't they have too removed prophecy of Jesus Christ?
The Bible, neither OT or NT speak nothing of the Prophet Mohammed. It's been that way since before the Dead Sea Scrolls and throughout Church history. Nobody knew anything about the Prophet Mohammed until he started prohesying. Thats just history.
Prophecy in the Quran and Suras - reepicheep - 06-03-2006
Wel_mel_2:
I'm doing my best to understand the point you are trying to make about Luke 3:23. Is the following an accurate summary of what you are claiming?
1) English language versions of the Koran contain made up phrases which are surrounded by brackets. This proves that every word in the Koran is true.
2) English language versions of the Bible contain made up phrases which are surrounded by brackets. This proves that the bible is full of lies and falsehoods.
3) English language punctuation marks such as commas, periods, brackets, and quotation marks do not appear in the Arabic Koran. This proves that every word in the Koran is true.
4) English language punctuation marks such as commas, periods, brackets, and quotation marks do not appear in the Greek New Testament. This proves that the bible is full of lies and falsehoods.
If that is what you are claiming, then your conclusions are not logical.
*****************************************
In regards to Luke 3:23, the phrase "as was thought" or "as was supposed" is definitely present in the original Greek. In the image you link to, the phrase corresponds to the two words which are fourth and fifth from the end (i.e., the two words which are preceeded and followed by commas).
This discussion we are having is based upon your claim that the phrase "as was supposed" is not present in the original Greek. Since the phrase is present, it follows that your argument is build upon a falsehood, and therefore your conclusions are invalid.
Unless you can provide us with at least one example, from the bible, of "made up" phrases surrounded by brackets, I think we can conclude that all your claims (in regards to brackets) are false.
Prophecy in the Quran and Suras - wel_mel_2 - 06-03-2006
Bismillah:
Quote:Wel Mel.
You mentioned that you believe that some of what is written in the Bible is the word of God but not all of it.
I would be curious (since I am CURIOUS Christian) to know which books or parts of the bilble you do believe to be the word of God.
Ok, as I mentioned we Muslims have no hesitation in acknowledging that in the Bible there are three different kinds of witnessing recognizable without any need of special training. For example you will be able to recognize in the Bible what maybe described as “the word of God” , “words of prophets” and “words of historians”.
The following quotations and examples will make my statements clearer.
The first type:
- “<b>I </b> will raise them up a prophet… and <b>I</b> will put my words in …. And he shall speak unto them all that <b>I</b> shall commanded him” Deut 18:18
- “<b>I</b>, even <b>I</b>, <b>am the Lord </b> and beside <b>me</b> there is no saviour” Isaiah 43:11
- “look unto <b>me,</b> and be ye saved, all the end of the earth: for <b>I am God,</b> and there is none else” Isaiah 45:22
Note the first person pronoun singular in the above references and without any difficulty you will agree that the statements seems to have the sound of being God’s words.
these are the types of statements that i maybe consider to be said by God.
Well there are other quotations in the Bible that I cannot consider to be God’s words at all, and i guess even you after reading them you will never attribute them to God Almighty.
I could also give you some examples of the second and third type if you wish. Do let me know.
Quote:Wel Mel. I was interested in your answer concerning the embryo development in the Quran.
Ok, I will start another thread Insha'Allah and bring all materials that discuss about the The Quran on Human Embryonic Development. I will also provide some links about Qur’an and modern science for you to read and examine.
But in order to gain the maximum benefits you will really need a printed copy of the Qur’an. I was asking you on the other thread if you could accept that I send you one copy of the Qur’an. Please PM for details. Thanks.
Quote:I thought that you may find this interesting.
The Bible states that each star is different from the other thousands of years before this was confirmed by science:
Noted about the Biblical information regarding science. I do have several problems with Biblical statements that it seems to be conflicting with modern science. I will also start a new thread concerning this matter, and please let me know if you can provide some answers.
Thanks a lot
Salam
Wael.
Prophecy in the Quran and Suras - wel_mel_2 - 06-03-2006
Bismillah:
Quote:Wel_mel_2:
I'm doing my best to understand the point you are trying to make about Luke 3:23. Is the following an accurate summary of what you are claiming?
I was not trying to make any point, I was only explaining to CC that sometimes during translations from any original text, putting words between brackets by translator are needed to avoid any doubt among the non native speaking people who might don’t have any idea about the original language of that text. So you came up and made claims that the Bible doesn’t have such thing. But you were wrong so I bring only one verses from several versions to prove to you that even the Bible translators used to explain the meaning and put them between brackets. No harm.
Now, whether the words "as was supposed" are found in the original Greek or not. Its not an issue, the main point that came up to my mind now is that why in some versions of the Bible the words are in brackets and in some other versions the <b>brackets </b> are removed? Are these words "inspired by God" or they are translators comments? If they are "God’s inspired words" then <b>there is no need for brackets</b>. And if they are translators words brackets are needed.
by the way, am not trying to find fault with your system of adding words in brackets to assist the reader, but what intrigues me is that <b>in all translations of the Bible in the African and Eastern languages you have retained the words "as was supposed" but have removed the brackets!. Couldn't the nations of the Earth besides the English understand the meaning and purpose of the brackets?</b>
Salam
Wael
Prophecy in the Quran and Suras - Muslimah - 06-03-2006
Bismillah
Quote:I don't know about that. The Dead Sea Scrolls (20BC - 100AD) even show the OT to be as it is today.
If the Jews removed prophecy in the OT about the Prophet Mohammed then wouldn't they have too removed prophecy of Jesus Christ?
The Bible, neither OT or NT speak nothing of the Prophet Mohammed. It's been that way since before the Dead Sea Scrolls and throughout Church history. Nobody knew anything about the Prophet Mohammed until he started prohesying. Thats just history.
salam Curious,
I only gave u one example of what has been deleted, and certainly we are well aware that neither the OT nor the NT have any indication to the Messenger prayer and peace be upon him.
For instance, in one case of adultry, the Messenger prayer and peace be upon him called the jews who knew that the punishment is stoning to read it from Tawrah but they skipped it.
Another verse which may shed more light to u is:
"<b>And verily, among them is a party who distort the Book with their tongues (as they read), so that you may think it is from the Book, but it is not from the Book, and they say: "This is from Allah," but it is not from Allah; and they speak a lie against Allah while they know it</b>
." (Quran 3:78)
Pls note that the sentence stating among them refers to the people of the book of whom the description started in:
"Among the People of the Scripture is he who, if entrusted with a Cantar (a great amount of wealth, etc.), will readily pay it back; and among them there is he who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless you constantly stand demanding, because they say: "There is no blame on us to betray and take the properties of the illiterates (Arabs)." But they tell a lie against Allah while they know it." (quran 3:75).
And obviously the Messenger prayer and peace be upon him is not mentioned in both O and Nt or else people would have believed in him.