Tell me if I am wrong.... - Printable Version

Tell me if I am wrong.... - Printable Version

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Tell me if I am wrong.... - wel_mel_2 - 07-16-2006

Bismillah:

Quote:Christians worship one God. You don't understand the nature of God.

am sorry CC, Christians claim to be worshipping one God, but in reality they do worship three persons and they call them ONE GOD. Which make no sense at all.

And Alhamdulelah Muslims do understand the nature of God because He revealed His nature to us.

SAY HE IS ALLAH ONE AND ONLY

ALLAH THE ABSOLUTE AND ETERNAL

HE BEGETS NOT NOR IS HE BEGOTTEN.

AND THERR IS NOTHING LIKE UNTO HIM

Salam

Wael.

Tell me if I am wrong.... - arclight - 07-16-2006

Quote:hence the WESTERN mind washing of the word "Jihad" which they delibrately and wrongly call as 'terrorism" is such a laughable matter! It shows how the western world seem to focus on "propaganda" more than FACTS

I think delibrate is a bit strong, its more of a misunderstanding. The first time I ever heard the word 'Jihad' was from the mouth of Saddam and I, like almost everyone else, misread it. In the middle of a war he was calling for a 'holy struggle', its not big step to take that to mean 'holy war'. Bear in mind that back then we didn't have the benefit of the internet like we do today, and the advantage of an explanation from someone who is fluent in both languages.

You could also use this as a good example of the care needed when reading the Bible, certainly the English versions which have been translated at least three times before reaching its current form. Its also why I understand the importance Islam puts on learning to read the Quran in its original form.

Tell me if I am wrong.... - Curious Christian - 07-16-2006

Quote:Bismillah:

am sorry CC, Christians claim to be worshipping one God, but in reality they do worship three persons and they call them ONE GOD. Which make no sense at all.

And Alhamdulelah Muslims do understand the nature of God because He revealed His nature to us.

SAY HE IS ALLAH ONE AND ONLY

ALLAH THE ABSOLUTE AND ETERNAL

HE BEGETS NOT NOR IS HE BEGOTTEN.

AND THERR IS NOTHING LIKE UNTO HIM

Salam

Wael.

am sorry WM, but Mohammed and the Quran corrupted the nature of God which had been revealed for centuries. Allah is never found in the bible. There is one God. The one God is the God of Abraham. The God is God who sent his only begotten Son to be antonement for his elect. The Allah which Mohammed introduced to the world is not the same God.

The NT works perfectly with the Old Testament. It is in perfect union with the Old Testament. The Quran is not. Thus Islam has to believe that the Bible was corrupted and changed. The assumption that Jesus was laughing at the foot of the cross is a heresy beyond measure. To deny His death, sacrifice and resurrection is the unpardonable sin. If Jesus was a holy prophet of God why would he laugh at a man's suffering under the case of mistaken identity? I guess that sinfull nature is one that Islam applies to prophets.

I do not believe that Allah gave special permission for Mohammed to have more than four wives. Why? How does that advance the kingdom of God? I think Mohammed crafted the Quran and the religion of Islam for his own selfish purposes. There is no miracle to the Quran. Any truth to it was stolen and hijacked from the Bible. The rest of it is largely nonsense and long winded praise to Allah. Other instances in the Quran say that Mohammed was given 'permission" to do this and that. If he was a prophet of God then he would be after God's own heart and he would know and operate within the guidelines given to man from God.

The biggest stumbling block to my or any other free thinking persons acceptence to Islam is Mohammed himself. The historical facts of Mohammed reveal that he wasn't the saint that Islam holds him up to be. He was after riches and pleasure. These facts are well recorded. Even in the Quran and Haddiths. Did Mohammed keep spoils of war? If so, how much? Why did Allah grant Mohammed 25 wives? When he was 54 he married a 6 year old??? How does that line up with the holy nature of God? We know that at least 27 people were murdered by Mohammed's orders? Did Jesus order the murder of anybody? Mohammed allowed temporary marriage "for three nights" or more, so that soldiers in the field could "marry" prostitutes. How does that line up with the Holy God? The joys and glories of the Islamic "paradise" are tangible and sensual and include sex with virgins -- and young boys. The joys of glories of the Christian heaven is clearly God centered. With believers spending constant union with God and worshiping God always. Not having sexual pleasures.

I wanted to be honest. I appreciate your willingness to teach me about Islam. You have cleared up a lot of misconceptions I have. I don't think all Muslims are evil like many of my countrymen do. I tell you the truth, if you came to my home hungry I would feed you. I mean no offense either. I realize what I said is offensive but sometimes the truth hurts.

Tell me if I am wrong.... - saima - 07-16-2006

Quote:I think Mohammed crafted the Quran and the religion of Islam for his own selfish purposes. There is no miracle to the Quran. Any truth to it was stolen and hijacked from the Bible. The rest of it is largely nonsense and long winded praise to Allah. Other instances in the Quran say that Mohammed was given 'permission" to do this and that. If he was a prophet of God then he would be after God's own heart and he would know and operate within the guidelines given to man from God.

The biggest stumbling block to my or any other free thinking persons acceptence to Islam is Mohammed himself. The historical facts of Mohammed reveal that he wasn't the saint that Islam holds him up to be. He was after riches and pleasure.

Bismillah

The prophet copied it

One historical fact that the prophet was illiterate is sufficient to prove this wrong. But Qur’an also says in Surah Araf, Ch. No. 7, Verse No. 157, that they follow the prophet. They follow the messenger, the unlettered prophet which is mentioned in their scriptures, the law and the Gospels. And today, if you read the Bible, it is mentioned in the book of the Isaiah, Ch. No. 29, Verse No. 12, ‘the book is given to a prophet who is not learned’. Qur’an says it is mentioned in the scripture and if you open the Bible, it is there in Isiah, Ch. No. 29, Verse No. 12, those orientalists who claim that the prophet copied from the Bible, Nauzubillah, they fail to realize that there was no Arabic version of the Bible when the prophet was present. The first, the earliest Old Testament in Arabic that we have was by R. Sadias Gaon in the year 900 C. E. that is Common Era. More than 200 years after the death of the prophet. And the earliest New Testament – Arabic that we have was published by Erpenius in 1616 about a thousand years after the death of the Prophet (may peace be upon him). I do agree that there are some similarities between the Bible and the Qur’an. That does not indicate that the latter had been copied from the former. It can also mean that they both have a common third source. All the revelations of Allah (SWT) have the common message of ‘monotheism’. They have the common message. All the previous revelations since they were time bound, as I mentioned, they have not been maintained in their original form and have been interpolated. And there are several concoctions, which have been done by the human beings. But there are bound to be a few points, which are common. Just because of these similarities, it would be wrong to say that prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) copied from the Bible. Then it would also mean that Jesus (May peace be upon him) Nauzubillah copied the New Testament from the Old Testament because there are many things common in the old and the New Testament. Both of them had a common source. And suppose some one copies in an examination, I will not write in the answer paper, I have copied from my neighbor. I will not write I have copied from Mr. XYZ. Muhammad (May peace be upon him) and Allah (SWT) clearly indicate that Jesus (May peace be upon him), Moses (May peace be upon him), all the other prophets were prophets of God Almighty. It gives them due credit and due respect. If he would have copied, he would not have mentioned, that Jesus and Moses (May peace be upon them) were prophets of God. This proves he did not copy. Only based on historical facts it is difficult for a person to say which of the two is correct Bible or the Qur’an. But let us put it to test using our scientific knowledge. On the face of it, if you glance, many stories, many points mentioned in the Qur’an and the Bible are exactly the same. But if you analyze, there is a difference of chalk and cheese. Bible for example mentions in the first book, in the book of Genesis, Ch. No. 1, ‘the creation of the universe, heavens and the earth, it was created in 6 days and the day is described as a 24-hour period’. Qur’an too speaks at several places in Surah Araf, Ch. No. 7, Verse No. 54, in Surah Yunus, Ch. No. 10, Verse No. 3, several places that… ‘The heavens and the earth were created in 6 ayyaam’. The Arabic word ‘ayyaam’ is the plural of ‘yaum’ which means day. Yaum means day. It also means a very very long period or an epoch. So here when the Qur’an says the heavens and the earth were created in 6 epochs, very very long period, the scientists have got no objection to description of the Qur’an. But to say that the world was created in 6-twenty four-hour days is unscientific. The Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verse No. 3 and 5, that… ‘The day and the night were created on the first day and science tells us that the lights were creating in the universe is due to a reaction of the stars’. And the Bible says that the Sun, Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verse No. 14 to 19, says that… ‘The sun was created on the fourth day’. How is it possible that the result, that is the light was created 3 days before the sun? Illogical, it is unscientific and the earth, which is required for the presence of day and night, was created on the third day. Qur’an too speaks about the creation of the light and the sun but it does not give this impossible unscientific sequence. Do you think Prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him), he copied from the Bible and he made corrections in the sequence? No one knew 1400 years ago. Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verse No. 9 to 13, that… ‘The earth was created on the 3rd day’ and Verse No. 14 to 19, says that… ‘The sun and the moon were created on the 4th day’. Today science tells us that the earth and the moon are parts of the original star, the sun. It is impossible that the earth was created before the sun. It is unscientific, Bible says that the vegetable kingdom in Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verse No. 11 and 13, ‘the vegetable kingdom, along with the seed, seed bearing plants, herbs, trees, etc. were created on the 3rd day and the sun’, Verses 14 to 19 says was created on the 4th day. How can the vegetation come into existence without the sun? Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verse No. 16, that God Almighty created two great lights – the sun, the greater light to rule the day and the moon the lesser light to rule the night. Bible says that the sun and the moon have its own light. And as I mentioned earlier, Qur’an clarifies in Surah Furqaan, Ch. No. 25, Verse No. 61, that the light of the moon is its reflected light. How is it possible that our beloved prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) copied and corrected all the scientific facts. It is not possible. If you analyze the several stories that is mentioned in the Qur’an and the Bible, if you analyze it closely, there is a difference of chalk and cheese. Bible mentions the story of Adam (May peace be upon him) that the first man to be created on the face of the earth was Adam and the Bible gives the date approximately 5800 years ago. Science today according to the archeological evidence and the anthropological evidence says that the first human being was present tens of thousands of years ago. Qur’an too speaks about Adam (May peace be upon him) as the first man but does not give this unscientific date. Bible speaks about the story of Noah Alaisalaam, Noah (May peace be upon him) that there was a flood there was a universal flood, in Genesis, Ch. No. 6, 7, 8. There was a universal flood in which all living creatures on the earth were submerged and were killed in this flood except those people that were there in the Arc of Noah (May peace be upon him). The date according to the Bible is approximately in the 21st or 22nd century. Today archeological evidence show us that the 11th dynasty of Egypt and the 3rd dynasty of Babylonian existed without any interruption in their continuation in the 21st century BC. Qur’an too speaks about Noah, may peace be upon him and the flood but does not give a date and the flood which Qur’an speaks about is localized flood. It does not speak about a universal cataclysm. It says that the flood was localized to the people of Noah only, may peace be upon him which scientists today have got no objection. So you yourself can decipher whether the Qur’an has been copied or not from the Bible.

The Qur’an is unlike any other religious scriptures which has a typical human type of narration like a storybook. How does the storybook begin? It begins with once upon a time, foxes and grapes, wolf and the lamb. Similarly, if you read other scriptures, it says, in the beginning was God, he made the heavens and the earth. In the beginning was the word. It may say now it came to pass as though so it happened. The Qur’an does not have such human narration in the beginning was so and so and if you read the other religious scriptures, they have a typical sequence of the human narration’s. It talks about a particular person, talks about his family, about the children and the sequence runs in order - Chapter 1, Chapter 2, it is in order. Qur’an too speaks about people and their family lives but it speaks not in a particular sequence like the human story book. The Qur’an has its own unique style. It is a unique book.

History tells us that never has the prophet been ever reported of telling a lie till the prophethood that is till the age of 40. And all the people acclaimed him as a person who was honest, who was noble, who was chaste. No wonder they gave him the title Al-Ameen - the trustworthy. Friends and foes alike. Even those people who said that he was a liar, God forbid, after he claimed prophethood, even then, they kept their valuables with him for safe keeping. Then why should an honest person lie and say that the Qur’an is a word of God and that he was a prophet.

Some say that prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) he attributed the Qur’an and said he was a prophet for material gains, for worldly benefits, I do agree there are several people who falsely claim to be prophets, saints and preachers for wealth. And they acquire riches and lead a luxurious life. We have several throughout the world.Prophet Muhammad was financially better off before than after prophethood. He had married a rich business woman by the name of Khadijah (May Allah be pleased with her) at the age of 25. 15 years before prophethood and his life after he claimed he was a prophet was unenviable. According to the collection of Hadith by An-Nawawi in Riyadh as Saleheen, Hadith No. 492, it says, that Ayesha (May Allah be pleased with her) who was the wife of our beloved prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) said that there were times when one or two months would pass without having fire been lit in the house because they did not have any cooked food. They survived on water and dates and sometimes supplemented by the goat milk given by the people of Madinah. This was not just a temporary phase. It was a way of life for the prophet. According to Riyadh as Saleheen, Hadith No. 465 and 466, Hazrat Bilal (May Allah be pleased with him) he said that whenever the prophet received gifts and provision for the future he gave it to the poor and the needy and never kept it back for himself. Then why should you doubt that the prophet told a lie, Nauzubillah for material gains. And there is a verse in the Qur’an which negates this thing. It is from Surah Al-Baqarah, Ch. No. 2, Verse No. 79, which says ...Arabic... ‘Then vow to those who write the book with their own hands’...Arabic... ‘And then say, this is from Allah’...Arabic... ‘To traffic with it for a miserable price’...Arabic... ‘Then vow to those for what their hands do write’...Arabic... ‘Then vow to those for what they earn’. This Verse is talking about the people who wrote the book with their own hands and said it is from God Almighty or they changed the words of Allah (SWT). There were every possibility that if Prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) himself would have written the Qur’an and attributed it to Allah (SWT) in some point of his life, he would have been exposed. Then he would be called as the biggest hypocrite and would called as the biggest hypocrite and would be cursing himself in his own book some people say that prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) attributed the Qur’an to Allah (SWT) and called himself a prophet for status, for power, for glory, for leadership. What are the qualities of a person who wants power, status, leadership and glory. He wears fancy clothes. He eats very good food. He lives in mansions and in monumental buildings. He has guards etc., our beloved prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) he milked his own goat. He mend his own clothes, he repaired his own shoes, he even many a times did the household work. He was an amazing model of simplicity and humbleness. He sat on the floor, he went to shop in the market without any guards. Even when the poor people used to invite him, he used to dine with them and eat graciously whatever was given to him.So much so that, that it is mentioned in the Qur’an in Surah Tauba, Ch. No. 9, Verse No. 61, said… ‘Oh! He listens to everybody what kind of a person is this who listens to every Tom, Dick and Harry’. Once when the representative of the pagan Arab by the name of Udba. He came to the prophet and said… ‘If you give up this claim of prophethood, we will give you all the wealth in Arabia. We will make you the leader of Arabia and crown you the king. Only thing that we want is that you should give up this message that there is only one God’ and the prophet refused. By the revelation of the Qur’an from Surah Fussilat, Ch. No. 41. There were several attempts made once through his Uncle Abu Talib that you give up your message and we will make you the wealthiest man in Arabia. The prophet said… ‘Oh! My Uncle, even if they put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left, I will not give up this mission until I die. Why should a person lead a life of such suffering and sacrifices when he was triumphant even with his advisories. And he was so humble and noble that, at all the times of victory, he always said, it is due to the help of Allah (SWT) and not my own genius.

Tell me if I am wrong.... - saima - 07-16-2006

Quote:16) They believe that Muslims who convert to Christianity or any other religion ought to be put to death.

Bismillah

The one who abandons Islam, and deserts the community. Refers to apostates who leave Islam and desert or abandon the community this occurs by being militant against Muslims (Sheikh-ul-Islam Ibn Taimiyyah held the same view see As-Sarem-ul-Masloul by Ibn Taimiyyah, page 315.)

Thus the Hadith refers to apostates who take to fighting the Muslims or causing disorder in the land. (As the complete statement not only reads “the one who leaves religion” but also “abandons / deserts the Muslims)

Consider the following Hadith:

Sunan Abu Dawood Book 033, Hadith Number 4339.

Narated By 'Aisha, Ummul Mu’minin: The Apostle of Allah (pbuh) Said: The blood of a Muslim man who testifies that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle should not lawfully be shed except only for one of three reasons: a man who committed fornication after marriage, in which case he should be stoned; one who goes forth to fight with Allah and His Apostle, in which case he should be killed or crucified or exiled from the land; or one who commits murder for which he is killed.

You see NO WHERE is Apostasy mentioned, and this is an authentic Hadith, and Ayesha (p b u h) the wife of the prophet is the narrator. This is because these Hadiths refer to a case of “apsotasy” in which a person abandons his religion and the community and causes Fasad (disorder/ mischief) in the land. He is thus included in the second category: one who goes forth to fight with Allah and His Apostle which is further included in the category of Fasad (disorder) done in the land (Quran 5:32)

We can bring to our mind the incident of the killing of the apostates of the tribe of UKL’ OR URAINA but reading the whole incident reveals that they had brutally killed the shepherds who had offered them their milk and urine to drink, they had pierced their eyes, they had left them to die in the desert and the Muslims and the Prophet (p b u h) afterwards got to know that they (the shepherds) were killed. They had also driven away their camels. Thus almost all Hadiths which describe their incident say that they were guilty of “waging war or fighting against God and his messenger” There were other cases too like the two apostates of Mecca that were killed during conquest of Mecca but they were both guilty of murder. There are some hadiths regarding this issue, which have been proven to be un-reliable, and un-authentic, so there is no question about them. (See Nail-ul-Awtar by Al-Shawkani, volume 7, Page 217. Cairo.)

Consider the following Hadiths too:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 003, Book 030, Hadith Number 107.

Narated By Jabir: A Bedouin came to the Prophet and gave a pledge of allegiance for embracing Islam. The next day he came with fever and said (to the Prophet), "Please cancel my pledge (of embracing Islam and of emigrating to Medina)." The Prophet refused (that request) three times and said, "Medina is like a furnace, it expels out the impurities (bad persons) and selects the good ones and makes them perfect."

Thus the prophet without any punishment let him leave Medina.

And:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 004, Book 056, Hadith Number 814.

Narated By Anas: There was a Christian who embraced Islam and read Surat-al-Baqara and Al-Imran, and he used to write for the Prophet (i.e. he was one of the scribes). Later on he returned to Christianity again and he used to say: "Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him." Then Allah caused him to die, and the people buried him, but in the morning they saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, "This is the act of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and took his body out of it because he had run away from them." They again dug the grave deeply for him, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, "This is an act of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and threw his body outside it, for he had run away from them." They dug the grave for him as deep as they could, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. So they believed that what had befallen him was not done by human beings and had to leave him thrown (on the ground).

The Hadith reveals that this man lived for some time after having left Islam as this statement indicates: he used to say… This means that he must have said this many times, and he must have declared this in front of many people that is how Anas (the narrator, who was very close to Muhammad p b u h and had lived since childhood with him) got to know it too. The Prophet, of course would have known that too, but he didn’t punish him.

Many Muslim Caliphs like Umar Ibn-alkhattab and Umar II suggested imprisonment and jizyah respectively.

Then in the Quran we find:

A section of the People of the Book say: believe in the morning what is revealed to the Believers, but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back” (Quran 3:72)

This mass apostasy took place in Medina while Islamic State was already established under leadership of the Prophet (p b u h). Though, these apostates whose aim, according to the Qur’an itself, was to tempt Muslims away from Islam, were not punished. (Tafsir Al-Qur'an-ul-'Azeem by Ibn Kathir, volume 2, page 36)

Another verse says:

Those who believe and then disbelieve, and then believe and then disbelieveand then increase in unbelief—God is not likely to forgive them, neither to guide them on any way Quran (4:137)

So there always have been apostates who have believed and then disbelieved and then believed again. They did live to believe and disbelieve again and again didn’t they? At Muhammad’s (peace be upon him) time, if after apostasy they had been put to death, they couldn’t have been alive to believe again and then disbelieve again, and they couldn’t have remained to alive to further increase in disbelief.

And we know:

Let there be no compulsion in religion” Quran (2:256)

And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who wills believe, and let him who wills disbelieve… Quran (18:29)

And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers!! It is not for a soul to believe except by God’s will permission; and He casts doubt on those who have no sense. Quran (10:100-101)—

Plus the Quran, talks about some people who had accepted Islam but after that had not been obedient to God and his messenger and God called them unbelievers. They were even known to Muhammad (P b u h), as the text of the Quran shows, and they were even brought to him for judgment, for which they were declining to come. Their description and the judgment of God is given in the following verses:

24:47

And they say: We believe in God and in the messenger and we obey; AFTER THAT a party of them turns away / turns back and these are not believers.

24:48

When they are summoned to God and His messenger, in order that He may judge between them, behold some of them decline (to come).

24; 53

They swear by God solemnly that, if thou order them, they will go forth

24:54

Say: Swear not; know ye that obedience (is better). Lo! God is Informed of what ye do. Say: "Obey God, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn back, he is only responsible for the duty placed on himself and ye for that placed on yourselves. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message)

(The Glorious Quran)

Plus this what the Quran said about those who had accepted Islam but either had after wards abandoned it or had never accepted it truly i.e. they were hypocrites. They were also well known to the prophet and they were not such apostates or hypocrites whose intentions were unknown to the prophet, I mean the prophet well knew about them:

He, who obeys the Messenger, obeys God: But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over there (evil deeds) And they say: Obedience But when they go out from your presence, a party of them decides by night upon doing otherwise than what you say and God writes down what they decide by night, therefore let them alone and trust in God, and God is sufficient as a protector. (Quran 4:80-81)

Tell me if I am wrong.... - wel_mel_2 - 07-16-2006

Quote:am sorry WM, but Mohammed and the Quran corrupted the nature of God which had been revealed for centuries. Allah is never found in the bible. There is one God. The one God is the God of Abraham. The God is God who sent his only begotten Son to be antonement for his elect. The Allah which Mohammed introduced to the world is not the same God.

The NT works perfectly with the Old Testament. It is in perfect union with the Old Testament. The Quran is not. Thus Islam has to believe that the Bible was corrupted and changed. The assumption that Jesus was laughing at the foot of the cross is a heresy beyond measure. To deny His death, sacrifice and resurrection is the unpardonable sin. If Jesus was a holy prophet of God why would he laugh at a man's suffering under the case of mistaken identity? I guess that sinfull nature is one that Islam applies to prophets.

I do not believe that Allah gave special permission for Mohammed to have more than four wives. Why? How does that advance the kingdom of God? I think Mohammed crafted the Quran and the religion of Islam for his own selfish purposes. There is no miracle to the Quran. Any truth to it was stolen and hijacked from the Bible. The rest of it is largely nonsense and long winded praise to Allah. Other instances in the Quran say that Mohammed was given 'permission" to do this and that. If he was a prophet of God then he would be after God's own heart and he would know and operate within the guidelines given to man from God.

The biggest stumbling block to my or any other free thinking persons acceptence to Islam is Mohammed himself. The historical facts of Mohammed reveal that he wasn't the saint that Islam holds him up to be. He was after riches and pleasure. These facts are well recorded. Even in the Quran and Haddiths. Did Mohammed keep spoils of war? If so, how much? Why did Allah grant Mohammed 25 wives? When he was 54 he married a 6 year old??? How does that line up with the holy nature of God? We know that at least 27 people were murdered by Mohammed's orders? Did Jesus order the murder of anybody? Mohammed allowed temporary marriage "for three nights" or more, so that soldiers in the field could "marry" prostitutes. How does that line up with the Holy God? The joys and glories of the Islamic "paradise" are tangible and sensual and include sex with virgins -- and young boys. The joys of glories of the Christian heaven is clearly God centered. With believers spending constant union with God and worshiping God always. Not having sexual pleasures.

I wanted to be honest. I appreciate your willingness to teach me about Islam. You have cleared up a lot of misconceptions I have. I don't think all Muslims are evil like many of my countrymen do. I tell you the truth, if you came to my home hungry I would feed you. I mean no offense either. I realize what I said is offensive but sometimes the truth hurts.

CC, thanks for your email message, there are few points in which I will deal with later insha'Allah since now its 5:00AN and my eyes are getting tired. Other points which we have discussed before, am sorry am not getting into the same subjects again.

just wait for my reply insha'Allah.

Salam

Wael.

Tell me if I am wrong.... - wel_mel_2 - 07-17-2006

Bismillah:

Quote:am sorry WM, but Mohammed and the Quran corrupted the nature of God which had been revealed for centuries. Allah is never found in the bible. There is one God. The one God is the God of Abraham. The Allah which Mohammed introduced to the world is not the same God.

Well, then you have to start your own sect of Christianity, because Allah is indeed the God of all Prophets according to the Bible itself. Just you are not aware that 'Allah' is actually the God of every prophet; the proof is Old Testament itself. In Aramaic God is 'Elah', in Hebrew is 'Eloah' whereas in Arabic is 'Allah', these 3 are actually related to each other. The different in pronounciation is only on slang.

The following is interesting proof from Christian's source to prove what I’ve said. Please read:

[Image: allahinot.jpg]

This passage is taken from Vine's Complete Exposition Dictionary by W.E. Vine, Merrill F.Unger, William White, Jr., Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville, TN, 1996.

This book also has mentioned that Ezra and Prophet Daniel were called their God as "Elah".

You said that ALLAH IS NEVER FOUND IN THE BIBLE. Then please tell the Arab Christian's priests to throw away the Bible in Arabic, use English Bible instead [if "Allah” is not your GOD].

Quote:The God is God who sent his only begotten Son to be antonement for his elect

False. Do you know that John 3:16 (the most popular verse in the Bible) was removed by 32 scholars of the highest eminence backed by 50 cooperating denominations as a fabrication, as interpolation… now if you open up the RSV you will not find the words “ONLY BEGOTTEN”

Now you go and ask your scholars why they have removed this verse from their Bible and they will tell you it is not to be found in the original text.

Quote:The NT works perfectly with the Old Testament. It is in perfect union with the Old Testament

Again, this is false claim. The OT never spoke of trinity, never spoke of atonement through the blood of Jesus, and always refers to God as One not three in one, never claim that Jesus is God as you and other Christians claims, and that’s why the Jews till now rejected your beliefs although they are using the same OT.

Quote:I do not believe that Allah gave special permission for Mohammed to have more than four wives. Why? How does that advance the kingdom of God?

will start new thread to explain to you why. Insha'Allah.

Quote:I think Mohammed crafted the Quran and the religion of Islam for his own selfish purposes.

Be careful, now you are slandering my Prophet PBUH… are you willing to ask about Islam or to attack the religion of Islam? You may ask without making these nonsensical comments so we keep on having healthy discussion. Thanks.

Quote:There is no miracle to the Quran. Any truth to it was stolen and hijacked from the Bible.

Produce your proof if you are truthful. You have not been able to refute a single point about “FACTS ABOUT THE QUR’AN” which i've shown you on the other thread.

Quote:The rest of it is largely nonsense and long winded praise to Allah. Other instances in the Quran say that Mohammed was given 'permission" to do this and that. If he was a prophet of God then he would be after God's own heart and he would know and operate within the guidelines given to man from God.

Copy and paste, you have not read the whole Qur’an… don’t lie CC. as Muslims we cant lie specially about our religion.

Quote:The biggest stumbling block to my or any other free thinking persons acceptence to Islam is Mohammed himself. The historical facts of Mohammed reveal that he wasn't the saint that Islam holds him up to be. He was after riches and pleasure. These facts are well recorded.

PRODUCE YOUR PROOF IF YOU ARE TRUTHFUL. you just cant stand his wonderful character PBUH so you go to the anti Islamic websites to follow them blindly. Exactly as you are doing by following the concept of Trinity blindly.

Quote:Even in the Quran and Haddiths. Did Mohammed keep spoils of war? If so, how much? Why did Allah grant Mohammed 25 wives? When he was 54 he married a 6 year old??? How does that line up with the holy nature of God? We know that at least 27 people were murdered by Mohammed's orders? Did Jesus order the murder of anybody? Mohammed allowed temporary marriage "for three nights" or more, so that soldiers in the field could "marry" prostitutes. How does that line up with the Holy God? The joys and glories of the Islamic "paradise" are tangible and sensual and include sex with virgins -- and young boys. The joys of glories of the Christian heaven is clearly God centered. With believers spending constant union with God and worshiping God always. Not having sexual pleasures.

To be honest with you, I can answer each and every part of the above paragraph to prove to you that Muhammad pbuh was indeed a true prophet of God. but I think you are not seeking an answer, you have learned how to attack. But be careful, I can also show you from your Bible that there are:

- People who give their daughters for sex when they are 3 years old.

- Murder and killing by Prophets of God.

- Jesus order killing those who commit adultery and those who disrespect their parents.

- even temporary marriage is to be found in the Bible

- sex was done in heaven according to the Bible too. Didn’t Adam and Eve were married before they were sent down to earth?

- Shortly I can show you how filthy the Bible is if you intend to attack my faith. So please don’t do that again.

Believe me CC, there is not easier than bashing the Bible. But am not willing to do than unless you start attacking my Prophet, Islam and Allah.

Am not going to repeat what I said earlier… please use your own mind when discussing rather than copy and paste because sometimes when you copy without certain knowledge, it shows how ignorant people are. So please verify the information before you copy and paste.

Quote:I wanted to be honest. I appreciate your willingness to teach me about Islam. You have cleared up a lot of misconceptions I have. I don't think all Muslims are evil like many of my countrymen do. I tell you the truth, if you came to my home hungry I would feed you. I mean no offense either. I realize what I said is offensive but sometimes the truth hurts.

But am so very disappointed of you after reading this post. You have copied from anti Islamic sources and bringing up more than 20 different topic in one single post and you are expecting me to believe that you are looking for answers. You are not CC.

What offended me the most is when you started to talk rubbish about my prophet pbuh, feeding me in your house is not going to offend me at all, in fact I will appreciate your generosity and hospitality. But to slander, mock and attack my prophet, then am telling you tham am not going to shut my mouth.

Hope you understand my point and hope we keep our healthy disuccion once again.

Salam

Wael.

Tell me if I am wrong.... - Curious Christian - 07-18-2006

You slander Jesus everytime you deny him. That offends me.

You've consistantly taken scripture out of context to use as "proof" for Islam's dubious teachings. That offends me.

Allah is not in the bible. I am sure you know the truth behind what you posted. I won't post it because I am sure it appears on Anti-Islamic sites and that offends you.

Quote:never spoke of atonement through the blood of Jesus,

Not true.

Read the Psalms for starters. Read half of the Old Testament temple laws which have to do with sacrifice. God always requires a blood atonement.

Quote:Be careful, now you are slandering my Prophet PBUH… are you willing to ask about Islam or to attack the religion of Islam? You may ask without making these nonsensical comments so we keep on having healthy discussion. Thanks.

I am all for a healthy discussion. Mohammed was not a prophet of God. That makes him a liar. You say that Jesus isn't God. That would mean that Jesus himself is a liar. I can handle your ideas about Jesus because I know they are false. I rest assured in the nature of Jesus. Do you honestly expect me to revere Mohammed? I don't believe in Islam.

I am done here. I thank you for the greater understanding I have of Islam.

Tell me if I am wrong.... - wel_mel_2 - 07-18-2006

Bismillah:

Quote:You slander Jesus everytime you deny him. That offends me.

Nonsense, Non Muslim is a Muslims if he does not believe in Jesus peace be upon him, and you should respect our view and beliefs as we do respect yours. I’ve never spoke ill of Jesus peace be upon him, I only present what I believe about him, but see in return how did you address our beloved Prophet peace be upon him. that is unacceptable.

Quote:You've consistantly taken scripture out of context to use as "proof" for Islam's dubious teachings. That offends me.

Am presenting my arguments from your own Bible and all what you have said “you are quoting out of context” why don’t you show me the context then?

Allah is not in the bible. I am sure you know the truth behind what you posted. I won't post it because I am sure it appears on Anti-Islamic sites and that offends you.

Allah IS IN THE BIBLE and ALLAH IS ALSO MENTIONED IN OTHER RELIGOUS SCRIPTURES. and I’ve shown you the verses. Do you want to see them again? Ok here we go.

Go and ask your Arab Christians brothers if am liar or am saying the truth.

[Genesis 1:1 - English Bible - King James Version]

"In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth . . . "

[Genesis 1:1 - Arabic transliteration]

"Fee al-badi' khalaqa Allah
u as-Samaawaat wa al-Ard . . . "

[Genesis 1:1 - Arabic Bible]

[Image: abib-01.jpg]

[John 3:16 - English Bible - King James Version]

"For God so loved the world, that . . . "

[John 3:16 - Arabic transliteration]

"Li-annhu haakadha ahabba Allah
u al-'Aalama hataa badhala . . . "

[John 3:16 - Arabic Bible]

[Image: abib-02.jpg]

are these two verses enough?

Quote:Read the Psalms for starters. Read half of the Old Testament temple laws which have to do with sacrifice. God always requires a blood atonement.

But not through Jesus.

Quote:I am all for a healthy discussion. Mohammed was not a prophet of God. That makes him a liar. You say that Jesus isn't God. That would mean that Jesus himself is a liar. I can handle your ideas about Jesus because I know they are false. I rest assured in the nature of Jesus. Do you honestly expect me to revere Mohammed? I don't believe in Islam.

When am saying Jesus is not God am only telling you our view and understanding. But when you are saying Muhammad is liar, then you are slandering his great person and so we cant accept such manner.

we don't expect you to believe in Islam either, Islam is so precious, and God is not waiting for me or for anybody to spread His religion, it is going to prevail over all other way of lives anyway. He has His own way.

I am done here. I thank you for the greater understanding I have of Islam.

Most welcome anytime.

Salam

Wael.

Tell me if I am wrong.... - Curious Christian - 07-18-2006

No mention of Christ's blood atonement in OT??? :(

Psalm 22

1

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning?

7

All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8

"He trusts in the LORD ; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him."

16

Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17

I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me.

18

They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.

Isaiah 53

3

He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Isaiah 53

5

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Isaiah 53

3

He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not

Isaiah 53

7

He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

Isaiah 53

9

He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Isaiah 53

12

Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[1] and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[2] because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Zechariah 11

12

I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.

13

And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.

What???? Did you say that there was no OT mention of Christ's sacrifice?