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If Jesus was a prophet? - Musleemah - 07-22-2006
Quote:So would a Muslim say that the bible is useless? Is there anyway to determine which parts of it are interpolations and fabrications?
We know that the parts which fit what is mentioned in the Quran are correct and are not corrupted, because they are both from God, except that the Bible was tampered with by man, so God sent down the last message, the Quran with Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam).
And how can u believe that the Bible of today is all God's word when part of it is Paul's writing.
Also it was written many years after the death of Jesus.
And today there are many different versions of the Bible, which one is the correct one?
Quote:Jesus was fully God and fully man.
If he was a God how can he die?
God never dies.
And how can he be man and God at the same time ?
Man is not perfect and he eats, sleeps ..etc. and he is a creation of God !!
And God does not eat or sleep and He is perfect !
And Jesus was born ! so how can he be fully God?!
It really does not make sense at all.
And it seems that there are many contradictions in the Bible and the statement I mentioned to you is one, since you said there are other verses in the Bible that show he knew.
If Jesus was a prophet? - Curious Christian - 07-22-2006
Quote:Bismillah:
You are pulling my leg again into the Bible issue. ;)
I have told you before in my previous posts that there are many parts in the Bible which can never be said or even inspired by God, such absurdities one cannot attribute to God.
I don’t know if you want me to talk in details about this subject. But again you will get emotional.
Salam
Wael.
I am not pulling your leg. I find it interesting that when it is supposedly convenient you try to use the bible to prove Islam. Other times you write off what the bible says thus discounting its validity. Which is it? And how do you know, as a Musim, which parts of the bible are valid and which aren't?
You've said before that any part where God speaks in the 1st person can be attributed to the word of God. What about what Jesus said? Assuming he was a Prophet. I posted the passage at the beginning of this thread and you deny that he said it.
<b>What then do you believe Jesus said? How do you dicern which sayings and teachings are valid and which aren't?</b>
We can agree that we each think eachothers Holy book contains absurdities. We've talked about that. You don't think that Jesus died and I don't think that ants talk.
You got offended when I questioned and accused Mohammed, your prophet. I got offended when you deny the death and resurrection of Christ.
Lets recognize eachothers sensitivities and approach the conversation respectfully.
I really just want to know what Muslims believe about Jesus. Specifically, I want to know what portions of Jesus in the bible you believe to be true and which portions you believe to be false.
Quote:And how can u believe that the Bible of today is all God's word when part of it is Paul's writing.
Also it was written many years after the death of Jesus.
And today there are many different versions of the Bible, which one is the correct one?
If he was a God how can he die?
God never dies.
And how can he be man and God at the same time ?
Man is not perfect and he eats, sleeps ..etc. and he is a creation of God !!
And God does not eat or sleep and He is perfect !
And Jesus was born ! so how can he be fully God?!
It really does not make sense at all.
And it seems that there are many contradictions in the Bible and the statement I mentioned to you is one, since you said there are other verses in the Bible that show he knew.
Even Muslims believe things on faith which they cannot explain. The nature of God is largely beyond human understanding. The only tool we have to dicern the nature of God is what He revealed to us in the Holy Bible.
There are no contradictions in the Bible either. Jesus knew he was going to be betrayed, tortured, and crucified. He also knew that he would rise on the 3rd day.
<b>Mark 10:32-34 </b>
32And they were on the way, going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus was going before them: and they were amazed; and they that followed were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them the things that were to happen unto him, 33saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests and the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him unto the Gentiles: 34and they shall mock him, and shall spit upon him, and shall scourge him, and shall kill him; and after three days he shall rise again.
That is just one instance. Jesus saying, "My God My God why hast thou forsaken me?" doesn't even remotely mean that Jesus didn't know his fate.
If Jesus was a prophet? - wel_mel_2 - 07-23-2006
Bismillah:
Quote:I am not pulling your leg. I find it interesting that when it is supposedly convenient you try to use the bible to prove Islam. Other times you write off what the bible says thus discounting its validity. Which is it? And how do you know, as a Musim, which parts of the bible are valid and which aren't?
Pointing out parts from the Bible that are not the word of God does not need a Bible scholar, any sane person can decide by himself. Here are some examples which I will never believe that they were even inspired by God. I don’t know what will you decide for yourself.
"And she kept <b>LUSTING</b> in the style of concubines belonging to those whose fleshly member <b>(of course you know what is that means)</b> is as the fleshly member of male asses and whose<b> GENITAL ORGAN </b> is as the <b>GENITAL ORGAN </b> of male (Ezekil 23:1-49)
I cant imagine that God <b>REVEALED</b> or <b>INSPIRED</b> those words to the author of the Bible.
.... for the spirit of <b>WHOREDOMS </b> hath cause them (the Jews) to err, and they have gone a WHORERING from under their God (osea 4:12, 6:10 and 9:1)
"She seized him and kisses him... "Come <b>let us make our fill of love till the morning</b>, let us delight ourselves with love, <b>FOR MY HUSBAND IS NOT AT HOME</b>..." Proverbs 7:7-22
believe me i cant even give my wife or daughter to read such thing.
" Says the woman: "My king was lying on his couch... "My lover has the scent of myrrh <b>AS HE LIES UPON MY BREASTS</b>" Song of Songs 1:12-13
" by night on my bed I sought him whom my soul loveth. ..."When i found him... <b>I HELD HIM. AND WOULD NOT LET HIM GO, UNTIL I HADE BROUGHT HIM INTO MY MOTHER'S HOUSE TO THE ROOM WHERE I WAS BORN"</b> song of songs 3:1-4
are you telling me that these are God's words? i say impossible. dont even try to convince me.
"Behold, your beautiful my love, <b>YOUR LIPS </b> are like a scarlet thread...
<b>YOUR TWO BREASTS</b> are like fawns...
<b>YOUR ROUNDED THINGHS</b> are like jewels.. I say I will go up the palm tree, Oh may <b>YOUR BREASETS BE LIKE CUSTERS OF VINE.</b> Song of songs 4:1-7
And on and on.. Stories which I will never allow my household to have access to them.
Thats why Goerge Bernard Shaw the great britisher thinker said about the Bible that it is:
Quote:The most dangerous book on earth, keep it under lock and key: your children must not have access to it"
Quote:You've said before that any part where God speaks in the 1st person can be attributed to the word of God. What about what Jesus said? Assuming he was a Prophet. I posted the passage at the beginning of this thread and you deny that he said it.
Assuming he was a prophet ?? if we agree on this fact, then we will not have any problem CC. but you are quoting those verses to prove that he was God. and so we say its not true since God or even part of Him can never die. you can imagine this point still.
Quote:<b>What then do you believe Jesus said? How do you dicern which sayings and teachings are valid and which aren't?</b>
Any saying that makes sense to human being I can accept. Because the Bible itself said GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION. So for example I have no objection in accepting the words of Jesus when he said:
<b>Here or Israel the Lord OUR God is One Lord. </b> he is declaring that he have a God. and this God is ONE not three in one as you claim.
another verse which make sense is: I can of my own self do nothing, as i hear i judge and my judgment is Just because am not seeking my own will, but the will of my father... anyone say this statement he is considered to be a Muslim.
He said I did not come to destroy the law or the prophet but I came to fulfill, I do agree on that.
He said worship the father ONLY... which means worship God alone.. He never say worship me.. So I have no objection in accepting those words from Jesus.
Anything that contradicts those statements they are considered to be a fabrication. And by the way, am not quoting a Muslim scholars or presenting the Muslim view points, No, but even Christians and Jewish scholars affirm that the Bible was not remained in its pure form as it was written. You may read WHO WROTE THE BIBLE which was written by Jewish Scholar of Old Testament - Richard E. Friedman he said the same thing in his book. You can also find another book titled <b>Bible Contradictions?" - Are There Contradictions - Why? </b> by Jim Meritt who is a Christian. You may also read <b>Secret Gospel of Mark(?)</b> written by Bible scholars who confirm the interpolation and fabrications found in their book. Read <b>"How Did 1 God - Become 3</b>?" Arianism Vs. Council of Nicaea which explains about Church History written by John Raymond a catholic Priest. Read <b>"Council of Nicaea - Trinity Accepted in 325 AD"</b>. do some research and you will come to know about the reality of the Bible.
Quote:We can agree that we each think eachothers Holy book contains absurdities. We've talked about that. You don't think that Jesus died and I don't think that ants talk.
You just don’t understand what is the meaning of a miracle, because in your Bible there are other amazing stories that no human being could accept, but they are considered as miracles, so we don’t talk about them. Like this person who killed 6000 people with small piece of stick. when we disagree on this, the Christians missionaries asks, don’t you believe in miracles? Yes we do. But we do not believe in nonsensical stories and statements that contradict other parts in the Bible, the verses you posts says that he was preparing for his death, yet on the cross he is crying for God to save him and complaining. This make no sense at all. That’s why we reject it.
Quote:You got offended when I questioned and accused Mohammed, your prophet. I got offended when you deny the death and resurrection of Christ.
We deny his death because we have got solid proof, our Qur'an which remained unchanged since the day it was written. If you can’t hear from that Jesus never die, that Jesus is not a God, then I guess this is not the proper place for you to stay. Because we are not going to change our position.
Salam
Wael.
If Jesus was a prophet? - Musleemah - 07-23-2006
Quote:Bismillah:
Any saying that makes sense to human being I can accept. Because the Bible itself said GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION.
brother, we are not to accept anything from it except what is proved in Islam (Quran or SUnnah)
somethings might make sense in our minds, but isn't from God's words, and it is from man's writting, so it is not accepted by God nor does it please Him.
If Jesus was a prophet? - Curious Christian - 07-23-2006
A) I have no problem believing that all the verses you posted were inspired by God. The context is what is important. For example, the Proverbs passage is a warning against harlots. But, I won't try to convince you of otherwise because you said that it wouldn't do any good.
Quote:Assuming he was a prophet ?? if we agree on this fact, then we will not have any problem CC. but you are quoting those verses to prove that he was God. and so we say its not true since God or even part of Him can never die. you can imagine this point still.
I started this thread..."IF Jesus was a prohet?" And you couldn't explain what the passage could have meant. My point in asking was simply to determine if you don't believe the words of Jesus in the bible.
There are no contradictions in the bible. There just isn't. One verse taken out of context may appear to be contradictory to another verse taken out of context but that theory doesn't hold up in the grand context of the bible. Because some wayward "Christians" allowed Satan to deceive them and write a book doesn't make this the case.
Respectfully, Muslism have no solid proof that Jesus wasn't crucified.
Quote:If you can’t hear from that Jesus never die, that Jesus is not a God, then I guess this is not the proper place for you to stay. Because we are not going to change our position.
Likewise I will never revere your Prophet. If I am a Christian I have to believe that he was a liar. For me to accept Islam I would be implored to deny Christ. Which is impossible because Christ dwells in my heart. I will be respectfull about Mohammed though.
If Jesus was a prophet? - wel_mel_2 - 07-23-2006
Bismillah:
Quote:A) I have no problem believing that all the verses you posted were inspired by God. The context is what is important. For example, the Proverbs passage is a warning against harlots. But, I won't try to convince you of otherwise because you said that it wouldn't do any good.
Yes then give them to your daughter to read and see how badly they will affect on her. am sure you have not heard of these verses before. Because in the church they don’t mention them. They can’t teach sexual stories to their audience from “The book of God”
Quote:I started this thread..."IF Jesus was a prohet?" And you couldn't explain what the passage could have meant. My point in asking was simply to determine if you don't believe the words of Jesus in the bible.
I told you my points many times, and you also didn’t accept, I used the Bible to prove that he wasn’t God, but you said am quoting out of context. So I asked you to show me the contest, but you ignore this point too.
Quote:There are no contradictions in the bible. There just isn't. One verse taken out of context may appear to be contradictory to another verse taken out of context but that theory doesn't hold up in the grand context of the bible. Because some wayward "Christians" allowed Satan to deceive them and write a book doesn't make this the case.
There are plenty of contradictions in the Bible, in the first page of Genesis alone there are 4 scientific contradictions. You just can’t see that because you are programmed to the theory that the Bible is inspired by God. ok fine we respect that.
Quote:Respectfully, Muslism have no solid proof that Jesus wasn't crucified.
I even proved to you from your own Bible that he wasn't crucified, that he have flesh and bone when he visited his disciples in the upper room, that he eat with them to prove that he was not God. But you did not even comment on this part.
According to the Islamic point of view, the Qur'an is very very clear. he was not killed, nor crucified, No interpretation needed and no confusion.
Quote:Likewise I will never revere your Prophet. If I am a Christian I have to believe that he was a liar. For me to accept Islam I would be implored to deny Christ. Which is impossible because Christ dwells in my heart. I will be respectfull about Mohammed though.
You have to believe that he was a liar? its seems like you are saying, Muslims, am very close minded person, they told me that Muhammad is a lair, so am going to believe this way, I don’t have to make any research because i just have to believe that he was a liar. I just remember the catholic priest who told me once.. I JUST HAVE TO BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY. Even it was false.
anyway CC, your opinion about our beloved prophet carry no weight.
Salam
Wael.
If Jesus was a prophet? - Curious Christian - 07-23-2006
Wel Mel...
Believe it or not I am pleased that you are willing to discuss these things with me. I realize that my ideas about your prophet carry no weight. I disagree that you've proven anything about the nature of Christ contradictory to what I believe...but I can let you disagree and let that be that.
I don't think we are going to agree about Jesus or Mohammed or God or Allah unless God works in our hearts.
I stand firm in my convictions and you stand firm in yours. I can respect you for that.
Now...I do still have questions about what Muslims think about Jesus...primarily because there are some things we agree about Jesus (such as virgin birth etc.) and there are some things which we don't agree. Since, to me, Jesus is the central character to salvation it's important for me to understand the average Musilms view of Jesus. I apologize for focusing my thoughts on Him. I have a specific question which I believe is important to my understanding of the Muslim viewpoint, but I'll start another thread.
If Jesus was a prophet? - Dan - 07-24-2006
Bismillah
I asked a question on another thread to which I did not recieve an answer, so I'll try again because it is a great point of confusion for me.
Christians believe that humans are born with sin and can only be purified by believing in Jesus' death and reseurrection.
According to this statement "Jesus was fully God and fully man," then Jesus was born with sin as well. If he was not born with sin then he was not FULLY human, because our sinful nature is a defining characteristic of our humanity, correct?
So to me it seems either Jesus was born with sin (or into sin) meaning God has sin (because Jesus is also "fully God") or Jesus was not born into sin meaning God does not have sin but resulting in Jesus not being "fully human."
Are there Bible passages that can clarify this point?
If Jesus was a prophet? - Curious Christian - 07-24-2006
Dan,
As any good Muslim you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin. Since Jesus was born in this out of the ordinary and miraculous fashion He wasn't tainted by original sin.
If Jesus was a prophet? - wel_mel_2 - 07-25-2006
Bismillah:
Quote:Dan,
As any good Muslim you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin. Since Jesus was born in this out of the ordinary and miraculous fashion He wasn't tainted by original sin.
There are many other people who were born in this same way, you did not read what <b>Church Father Origen says in the second century </b>, he lists a number of Pagan Gods<b> “who were in fact human beings”</b> who born of virgins: <b>Danae, Melanippe, Auge and Antiope.</b> Origin, Against Celsus 1, 37
According to Hinduism, Krishna too born of a Virgin, they have their history recorded books on these events. But that will not make Krishna as God the Creator, nor is the virgin birth of Jesus going to make him God or superior to others.
And since anyone is born of a women is a sinner according to the Bible, then you have to include Jesus because he was too born of a women, whether she was a virgin or not it does not really matter, because there are other people out there were born of a virgin.
Salam
Wael.