+- Forums (https://bb.islamsms.com)
+-- Forum: ENGLISH (https://bb.islamsms.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=5)
+--- Forum: Discussion of Beliefs (https://bb.islamsms.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=25)
+--- Thread: Why Mecca? (/showthread.php?tid=7037)
Why Mecca? - AlShamms - 09-20-2006
Quote:Bismillah:
Well, I have to agree with you on this Shamms. Our Christ pbuh and your Jesus are totally different. But there has to be only <b>ONE REAL CHRIST
</b>. And in this case, we are the winners
Peace......
Now, now Wel Mel, you knew I would have to disagree with you here. You seem to make much of the name "Christ" which is Christos in the greek language and means "annointed one". As far as you being the "winners"....well that really doesn't need to be addressed. I know what the Bible says and you say something different.
Quote:<b>“So no offense to any of our Christians friends on this board”</b> but I have to say that Muslims are the true followers of the <b>real</b> Christ because they assert him as the Messiah and not <b>“God the Messiah”</b>, the title ‘Christ’ does not mean divine and was not specifically given to <b>Jesus of the Bible</b>, <b>Cyrus</b> the pagan was also called Christ in the same Bible of Christians.
Actually Wel Mel, you are being misleading, either accidentally or on purpose to try to prove your point I don't know, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Christ as a title has never ment divine, it has always ment "annointed".
Cyrus wasn't called "Christ" as that is an English traslation of a Greek word. Cyrus was called annointed yes, but in Hebrew the term is "mâshîyach" and means, according to the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon; "anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint)".
There were a few people who were annointed in the Old Testament: The Kings of Israel (David, Solomon, Joshua); The High Priests of the Levitical Order (Aaron and his sons after him); and the patriarchs of the nation of Israel (Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph).
If you like we can start a different thread where we can discuss the difference in the annointings between these men and Jesus Christ as there is a very big difference.
Quote:So I have to say that <b>‘Christians do not really know the real Christ’</b> <b>"they teach another person called Jesus</b>".. simply because neither the "J" nor the second "s" in the name Jesus is to be found in the original tongue of Christ, they are not found in the Semitic languages. His name was simply "ESAU" which is very common Jewish name and <b>Eisa</b> in Arabic, that is the real Christ peace and blessing be upon him.
am sorry, that was totally off topic but it was necessary for me to make this correction. Thanks.
Salam
Wael.
Correction? It is you Wel Mel, that need correcting....allow me to demonstrate.
Jesus is an English translation of the Greek "Iēsous", Greek being the language that the New Testament was written in. "Iesous" is itself a Greek translation of the Hebrew "yehôshûa‛" and means Yahovah's salvation. Yehoshua, Iesous, Jesus. From Hebrew to Greek to English. That is where the "J" comes from.
Now Esau as is rendered in the Hebrew is "‛êśâv" and means "handling; rough" as Esau was a very hairy man. It is interesting to note that the Greek language did not change the spelling of this name when it translates over, it is still "esau".
The two are not the same name and should not be confused. I hope this clears up your misunderstanding. You can, if you like, check any reputable Hebrew Lexicon to check the correctness of what I explained to you. Brown-Driver-Briggs, being the foremost authority. As far as Greek Lexicons go, you can check Thayer's Greek Lexicon, or Strong's Greek Dictionary. Both are very good.
I too am sorry for the depart from the topic, but this error had to be addressed.
Shamms
Why Mecca? - Steve Consilvio - 09-20-2006
Don't worry about going off-topics. I find all the responses welcome.
(I am not a thread purist, I am a spiritual purist.)
Like the value of "things," we also seem to get caught up in names. Does a goat farmer of 1000 years ago know anything of the things we know (computers for example) of course not, nor can we really know anything about him. It is not the language amd antiques that get passed down that are important, it is the Spirit.
At the time that Moses met God, what was the concept of "holy" in those days? It was vastly different than what we think of. We are a product of our times, just as they were a product of their times. But what is the central issue? Cain slew Abel even when there were only two. As we multiply as descendents of Abraham our knowledge does not necessarily make us wiser. The millions on each side form a democratic religious force, but the wisdom of a single tongue cannot be denied by the loudest consensus of folly.
If we accept the existence of the Devil, should we not also accept that he leads masses astray? Not necessarily in huge and obvious ways, but in the subtlety of tradition and non-verbal projections and observations. Habits and traditions transpose bigotry from one generation to the next.
Muhammed and Jesus were both individuals misunderstood by their contemporaries. As they attracted a following, were they understood any better? Just as the blind follow the blind, the blind can follow others as well. WWJD (What Would Jesus Do?) is a common question. Yet we see men pray and kill. They are protecting "their" holyland or homeland or fatherland. Yet God says we are the aliens on His land.
As such, Mecca does not belong to the Muslims anymore than Israel belongs to the Jews. The world belongs to all of us, or none of us.
God has thrown down many temples and many nations because of the errors of their ways. Although I tend to think of it as the sins we sow create sinners that attack us, thus all conflicts involve two sinners, and regardless of who wins, more sin has been sowed.
The sad reality is that until we can open our minds and our hearts we will never be able to open our borders. The problem is not the people on the outside, it is the thoughts inside our head. The bigger the assumption (like Mecca) the more it should be questioned.
The Ten Commandments are rules that govern individuals. There is no need for the Church or State at all, and the deeds, property, money, etc. The Spirit creates cooperative communities, conflict comes from the presumption of power.
Why Mecca? - wel_mel_2 - 09-21-2006
Bismillah:
Quote:Peace......
Now, now Wel Mel, you knew I would have to disagree with you here. You seem to make much of the name "Christ" which is Christos in the greek language and means "annointed one". As far as you being the "winners"....well that really doesn't need to be addressed. I know what the Bible says and you say something different.
Actually Wel Mel, you are being misleading, either accidentally or on purpose to try to prove your point I don't know, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Christ as a title has never ment divine, it has always ment "annointed".
Cyrus wasn't called "Christ" as that is an English traslation of a Greek word. Cyrus was called annointed yes, but in Hebrew the term is "mâshîyach" and means, according to the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon; "anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint)".
There were a few people who were annointed in the Old Testament: The Kings of Israel (David, Solomon, Joshua); The High Priests of the Levitical Order (Aaron and his sons after him); and the patriarchs of the nation of Israel (Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph).
If you like we can start a different thread where we can discuss the difference in the annointings between these men and Jesus Christ as there is a very big difference.
Correction? It is you Wel Mel, that need correcting....allow me to demonstrate.
Jesus is an English translation of the Greek "Iēsous", Greek being the language that the New Testament was written in. "Iesous" is itself a Greek translation of the Hebrew "yehôshûa‛" and means Yahovah's salvation. Yehoshua, Iesous, Jesus. From Hebrew to Greek to English. That is where the "J" comes from.
Now Esau as is rendered in the Hebrew is "‛êśâv" and means "handling; rough" as Esau was a very hairy man. It is interesting to note that the Greek language did not change the spelling of this name when it translates over, it is still "esau".
The two are not the same name and should not be confused. I hope this clears up your misunderstanding. You can, if you like, check any reputable Hebrew Lexicon to check the correctness of what I explained to you. Brown-Driver-Briggs, being the foremost authority. As far as Greek Lexicons go, you can check Thayer's Greek Lexicon, or Strong's Greek Dictionary. Both are very good.
I too am sorry for the depart from the topic, but this error had to be addressed.
Shamms
<b>Well, I guess we have started our debates Shamms</b>. :)
Of course I still <b>insist</b> on my opinion regarding ‘the real Christ’
but definitely this is not the right thread for such discussion.
Correction? <b>YES indeed</b>. Where religion is concerned Muslims are experts: <b>No other religious scripture claims that its religion alone is true</b>. I repeat, <b>There is no other religious scripture on the face of the earth besides the Qur’an which says that only its religion is true, correct and acceptable to Almighty God</b>, <b>“The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His will)”. [Al-Qur’an 3:19]
</b>so its our right to make such correction. Now you <b>"think"</b> that it is me who need such correction! Well, I will respect your view, but that doesn’t mean that you are right.. <b>not at all</b>. i still have much to say regarding this topic, however, Its enough for now Shamms… please let us start new threads to discuss anything you desire concerning Islam and Christianity. Thanks.
Salam
Wael.
Why Mecca? - Steve Consilvio - 09-21-2006
Quote:[/u] Where religion is concerned Muslims are experts: <b>No other religious scripture claims that its religion alone is true</b>. I repeat, <b>There is no other religious scripture on the face of the earth besides the Qur’an which says that only its religion is true, correct and acceptable to Almighty God</b>, Salam
Wael.
Using oneself as proof of final authority is species logic. Whatever wisdom may be contained therein, this claim presents two problems:
1. The writer makes the claim for his hands
2. The reader may not be understanding the words correctly.
In other words, to say that the Qur’an contains wisdom, and the Muslims read the Qur’an, it does not follow that all Muslims are wise.
...The same problem occurs with the Bible, the Torah and everyother thing written down.
A fascist is someone with a piece of paper in one hand and a weapon in the other. That piece of paper is usually "scripture" of some sort. Men have made boastful claims of their wisdom and purity for eons, but that does not make them true. In fact, it is pride that oftens leads men astray. If you believe what you just said, then you have already proven your claim to be false.
The Spirit and God does not belong to any denomination or one book. The Truth is the Truth, and it is not restrained by man's political pride or limited to one group. The Truth existed before we were even created, and is a gift for all men.
Why Mecca? - wel_mel_2 - 09-21-2006
Bismillah:
Quote:Using oneself as proof of final authority is species logic. Whatever wisdom may be contained therein, this claim presents two problems:
1. The writer makes the claim for his hands
2. The reader may not be understanding the words correctly.
In other words, to say that the Qur’an contains wisdom, and the Muslims read the Qur’an, it does not follow that all Muslims are wise.
...The same problem occurs with the Bible, the Torah and everyother thing written down.
A fascist is someone with a piece of paper in one hand and a weapon in the other. That piece of paper is usually "scripture" of some sort. Men have made boastful claims of their wisdom and purity for eons, but that does not make them true. In fact, it is pride that oftens leads men astray. If you believe what you just said, then you have already proven your claim to be false.
The Spirit and God does not belong to any denomination or one book. The Truth is the Truth, and it is not restrained by man's political pride or limited to one group. The Truth existed before we were even created, and is a gift for all men.
Although you are not so clear in what you have just said, but my statement is open for discussion… so what part exactly of my statement you are saying that it is false? And I will try to clarify insha’Allah.
Salam
Wael
Why Mecca? - Steve Consilvio - 09-21-2006
Quote:Bismillah:
Although you are not so clear in what you have just said, but my statement is open for discussion… so what part exactly of my statement you are saying that it is false? And I will try to clarify insha’Allah.
Salam
Wael
You are saying that Muslims are wiser than everyone else because Islam is the wisest religion.
Have I understood you correctly?
Why Mecca? - AlShamms - 09-21-2006
Peace.....
Wel Mel, you should know making a claim of perfection doesn't make it so. But if you choose to believe that, so be it. As for the claim that no other religion claims itself to be true...come on now.
(John 14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, <b>the truth</b>, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
That's just one of many. But understand this Wel Mel. Religion by it's very nature divides. It divides the believer from the unbeliever, the sinner from the righteous man. The saved from the damned. Every religion claims it is the path to something (eternal life, nirvana, enlightenment, and so on). Else why follow that particular religion over any other?
Shamms
Why Mecca? - wel_mel_2 - 09-22-2006
Bismillah:
Quote:You are saying that Muslims are wiser than everyone else because Islam is the wisest religion.
Have I understood you correctly?
never did I say that we are the wisest, I said we are <b>'experts'</b> where religion is concerned, because we are not confuse with the concept of God, we do not worship anything or anyone else beside Him, and we do serve God alone, even ignorant Muslims will follow this simple concept.. unlike <b>ANY OTHER RELIGION</b> where they claim to worship only one God, but in fact they do associate with him someone else. And that makes us special.
now coming to Shamms' comments by quoting John 14:6 to prove that the Bible did say that its religion is <b>the only religion which is true, correct and acceptable to Almighty God".. </b> again you failed, because even I too believe in jesus’ statement of Mark 14, I also believe that Moses was indeed the truth, they way to salvation for his people in his time, Abraham too was the way, the truth and the life for his people to reach God, and so were all the other prophets.. but God Almighty declares in His Holy Book (The Qur’an) that <b>ISLAM IS THE ONLY RELIGION ACCEPTABLE TO HIM</b>... and there is <b>no other book make such claim</b>.. am sure of what I said, and this again makes us experts… this is my personal opinion anyway, but I do believe it.
Salam
Wael.
Why Mecca? - Steve Consilvio - 09-22-2006
While we need "religion" as a way to teach one another and the next generation, I do not think God has any need of it at all.
As to what is "acceptable," you seem to miss my point that someone saying that they are "best" is fraught intellectual dishonesty.
It would also perhaps be useful to explain what you mean by religion. I think of religion as organizational structures. Islam, to its credit, seems less hierarchial, but within each sect it seems to be very hierarchial. Thus, when a cleric says things that are false, he leads many astray, the same as a Christian preacher.
Or perhaps you mean the idea of day constantly interrupted by prayer (or prayer interupted by necessities) but that is a form of worship, not "religion." Any religion could choose to do the same rituals.
Lastly, I just wanted to point out that this idea of praying towards Mecca is the same thing that the Chinese practiced for thousands of years. Everyone slept with their head toward the Forbidden City. Similarly, when the Emperor stood at the center of the city, with his 100,000's of soldiers surrounding him, he was God in the minds of men at that time. It strikes me as very similar to Mecca.
Yet look what Jesus says of these palaces of religious pride and the nature of our existence:
Quote:Mark 13
Signs of the End of the Age
As he was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!"
"Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, "Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?"
Jesus said to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you. Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and will deceive many. When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.
We are still going through these birth pains, obviously. Those who claim the end is near (because of the creation of Israel, for example) are greatly mistaken. Religious leaders are constantly leading their flock astray, just as political leaders do.
Granted, Jesus does not say that He wants these buildings to fall, only that they will. Again, I would not be self-satisfied with any label. There are only two people in the world: you and God. It doesn't matter what Islam does. You are not Islam and Islam is not you. The word "Islam" is just an intellectual construct (a label) to help us communicate differences we observe in our surroundings. The same intellectual capacity which also leads us to see difference where there is none, like, there is only one God. The splitting of hairs is unimportant, it is unity without exclusion that has value
Why Mecca? - wel_mel_2 - 09-22-2006
Bismillah:
Quote:While we need "religion" as a way to teach one another and the next generation, I do not think God has any need of it at all.
Yes, God do not need a religion for Himself... but we do. And since He is our Creator, He have perfected for us a religion/way of life in order for us to learn how to live on this earth rightly!! (insha’Allah will explain later what do we “Muslims” means when we say religion or much appropriate <b>‘DEEN’</b>)
Quote:As to what is "acceptable," you seem to miss my point that someone saying that they are "best" is fraught intellectual dishonesty.
Qur'an 3:110-112 <b>Ye are the best
of peoples evolved for mankind BECAUSE
enjoining what is right forbidding what is wrong and believing in Allah.</b>
So I was quoting what was mentioned in the Qur’an, and the Qur’an as you may know is the first authentic source of Islam, so if you doubt the authenticity of the Qur’an, this is your problem which is also open for discussion. If you don’t believe that the Qur’an was revealed by God, then you have to tell us from where did it come?
Quote:It would also perhaps be useful to explain what you mean by religion. I think of religion as organizational structures. Islam, to its credit, seems less hierarchial, but within each sect it seems to be very hierarchial. Thus, when a cleric says things that are false, he leads many astray, the same as a Christian preacher.
Or perhaps you mean the idea of day constantly interrupted by prayer (or prayer interupted by necessities) but that is a form of worship, not "religion." Any religion could choose to do the same rituals.
Ok here what do we mean by religion... or <b>DEEN.</b>
It implies a very comprehensive system of life that is composed of four parts:
1-The ruler ship and the authority belong to Allah only.
2-The obedience and submission are to Allah.
3-The comprehensive system (intellectual and practical) is established by this authority (Allah).
4-The reward given by this authority (Allah) to those who followed the system and submitted to him and the punishment inflicted upon those who rebel against it and disobey it.
Based on this definition of “deen”, you can conclude that it is a submission, and worship by man for the creator, the ruler, in <b>a comprehensive system of life with all its belief, intellectual, moral and practical aspects. </b>
After understanding this definition of the Arabic word “deen”, you may realize that it is not correct to translate it into English using the word “religion". Because <b> the word religion dose not really denote the full meaning of the word Deen.</b>
Hop this was clear insha’Allah.
Quote:Lastly, I just wanted to point out that this idea of praying towards Mecca is the same thing that the Chinese practiced for thousands of years. Everyone slept with their head toward the Forbidden City. Similarly, when the Emperor stood at the center of the city, with his 100,000's of soldiers surrounding him, he was God in the minds of men at that time. It strikes me as very similar to Mecca.
Praying towards Mecca or the Ka’ba is a sign for our submission to Allah’s will. <b>Do you know what the meaning of submission, surrendering and obedience?</b> For instance, if Muslims want to offer Prayers, it is possible that some may wish to face north, while some may wish to face south. In order to unite Muslims in their worship of the One True God, Muslims, wherever they may be, are asked to face in only one direction. I can see nothing wrong with that… now the question is <b>why Mecca?</b> hmm ….. <b>Are you questioning God for the places He chooses?</b>
God Almighty chooses His Own Messengers, He uses His Own Standards although we may not always understand the wisdom of it. Shall we say why did He choose Moses pbuh? Are we in a position to ask God why he picked Jesus pbuh, <b>a carpenter and a son of a carpenter, who has no where to lay his head</b>
to be sent to the Jews? <b>We should not show this attitude on God's choice</b>. He chooses mount Sinai when He decided to speak with Moses pbuh, did we ever say why mount Sinai and not mount Everest? God also chose the best month, best nation, best day, best city, best people, etc and sometimes we do not know the wisdom behind His choices. But as Muslims we always say …. <b>We hear and we obey</b>…
<b>"We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens: now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque: wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction."
</b>[Qur’an 2:144]
Quote:Granted, Jesus does not say that He wants these buildings to fall, only that they will. Again, I would not be self-satisfied with any label. There are only two people in the world: you and God. It doesn't matter what Islam does. You are not Islam and Islam is not you. The word "Islam" is just an intellectual construct (a label) to help us communicate differences we observe in our surroundings. The same intellectual capacity which also leads us to see difference where there is none, like, there is only one God. The splitting of hairs is unimportant, it is unity without exclusion that has value
Are you a hindu? Because you talking like them… ah by the way, <b>I am not ISLAM... I am a Muslim</b>. It is an Arabic word which means he who submits himself to Allah’s will. And the Deen of Allah called Islam.. indeed the deen in the sight of Allah is Islam (Submission to His will).
The religion of Islam is not named after a person as in the case of Christianity which was named after Jesus Christ, Buddhism after Gotama Buddha, Confucianism after Confucius, and Marxism after Karl Marx. Nor was it named after a tribe like Judaism after the tribe of Judah and Hinduism after the Hindus. Islam is the true religion of "Allah" and as such, its name represents the central principle of Allah's religion/Deen; the total submission to the will of Allah, The Arabic word "Islam" means the submission or surrender of one's will to the only true god worthy of worship "Allah" and anyone who does so is termed a "Muslim", So, <b>it was not a new religion brought by Prophet Muhammad pbuh in Arabia in the seventh century, but only the true religion of Allah re-expressed in its final form. </b>
Nowhere in the Bible will you find God saying to the people of Moses pbuh that their religion is Judaism, nor to the followers of Christ that their religion is Christianity. So for me and for all Muslims, <b>It matters what Islam does for humanity.</b>
I do respect your view and I hope that you understand my points too. It does not matter for me to win an argument, but it is important for me to deliver the message correctly. And i ask Allah to forgive me if I did or said anything wrong.
Salam
Wael.