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Guidelines on interactions with Non-Muslims - reepicheep - 03-16-2007
<b>Q1: Does Allah love unbelievers?</b>
Wel_mel_2, you spewed forth lots of words, which can be summarized as: <b>No</b>, Allah does not love unbelievers. Correct?
<b>Q2: Are Christians unbelievers?</b>
Your answer here seems to be "<b>all Christians are unbelievers, except for the Christians who are believers</b>".
Huh??? What you wrote is meaningless nonsense.
According to the koran, what is the difference between "Christian believers" and "Christian unbelievers"???
Guidelines on interactions with Non-Muslims - wel_mel_2 - 03-16-2007
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
Quote:Q1: Does Allah love unbelievers?
Wel_mel_2, you spewed forth lots of words, which can be summarized as: No, Allah does not love unbelievers. Correct?
Is this really what you have understood? Or you did not read my post properly?
by the way, what you have just said is <b>INCORRECT</b> "as usual"
Quote:Q2: Are Christians unbelievers?
Your answer here seems to be "all Christians are unbelievers, except for the Christians who are believers".
Huh??? What you wrote is meaningless nonsense.
According to the koran, what is the difference between "Christian believers" and "Christian unbelievers"???
I already quoted the verses from the Qur’an that described the type of the people of the book who are righteous and promised high reward by Allah.
<b>Those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain</b>
"Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works:
Those people Reep will be in the ranks of the righteous.
Salam
Wael.
Guidelines on interactions with Non-Muslims - reepicheep - 03-16-2007
Wel_Mel_2, you say that God loves all Christians who believe in God. But, by definition, ALL Christians believe in God. This means that all Christians are believers. Therefore, God loves all Christians, since no Christians are unbelievers.
Correct???
Guidelines on interactions with Non-Muslims - wel_mel_2 - 03-16-2007
Bismillah:
Wel_Mel_2, you say that God loves all Christians who believe in God.
No I didn’t say that, you are just picking part of what i said.
God loves those <b>who believe in Him, AND in the revelation sent to Muhammad pbuh, in the revelation sent to them, they will not sell Allah’s words for a miserable price, those who stand firmly for the right, those who prostrate themselves in adoration, those who believe in God and the Last Day; and those who enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong etc… </b>
For example, when my wife was a Catholic, she told me that she wish to prostrate in prayers the same way as we do, <b>and she did it many times at home WHILE SHE WAS A CATHOLIC CHRISITAN</b>, she even told me that God should be worshipped this way. This is just an example of good Christians, also she believed entirely that <b>God is ONE, and NOT ONE IN THREE</b>, she also believed in what the Qur’an says about Jesus, once she told me that Christians should be happy to know that Jesus Christ pbuh was never crucified and humiliated by dying on the cross. Those Christians are the faithful ones according to verses I’ve quoted, and i know of some Christians who believe this way.
Salam
Wael.
Guidelines on interactions with Non-Muslims - reepicheep - 03-16-2007
> she believed entirely that God is ONE, and NOT ONE IN THREE,
<i>(it's not clear what you mean by "NOT ONE IN THREE", so in the following discussion I'll assume you mean your wife did not believe Jesus was God, or believe in the Trinity).</i>
******************************
It appears your wife didn't believe that Jesus is God. If so, then she was NOT Christian.
By definition, to be a Christian a person must be a Trinitarian (i.e., they must believe in the Triune God).
There are a handful of churches which call themselves Christian, but don't believe in the Trinity (for example, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses). Trinitarian churches do NOT consider these churches to be Christian. Roman Catholics are certainly Trinitarian, so it is impossible for your wife to be a Catholic Christian while simultaneously rejecting Roman Catholic dogma.
Anyway, we are discussing question 2. I see this is a mistake, and we must return to question 1, since we have not yet decided upon an answer for Q1.
<b>Q1: Does Allah love unbelievers?</b>
A: I said your answer is NO. But, you said my understanding of your answer is wrong. Therefore, you seem to be saying that the answer is <b>YES, Allah does love unbelievers.</b> Correct?
If you are correct, and Allah does love unbelievers, then why does Surah 3:32 clearly state that Allah does NOT love unbelievers?
Guidelines on interactions with Non-Muslims - wel_mel_2 - 03-17-2007
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
Quote:It appears your wife didn't believe that Jesus is God. If so, then she was NOT Christian.
Well, at first she does, but when she grow up she discovered that she was wrong.
Quote:By definition, to be a Christian a person must be a Trinitarian (i.e., they must believe in the Triune God).
Well, maybe you can say that she didn’t find any clear instruction from the Bible to prove your claim. anyway, this is not the subject now.
Quote:Q1: Does Allah love unbelievers?
A: I said your answer is NO. But, you said my understanding of your answer is wrong. Therefore, you seem to be saying that the answer is YES, Allah does love unbelievers. Correct?
Ok let me remind you of what we have discussed previously on this thread.
<b>Please re-read my post # 5……</b>
<b>Did you finish reading??? Please read it well.
</b> :blink:
Now your reply was “Muslims believe that Allah's love is conditional”
And I confirmed that your statement was correct, and I’ve even proved from the Bible that God’s love is also conditional.
Here I conclude that, Allah loves SOME Non Muslims who are peaceful loving people (<i>and the characteristics of those people is described in the Qur’anic verses that I’ve posted before</i>) <b>but He also does not love those who show any hostility to His DEEN “religion”</b>
was this clear Reep? please feel free to ask more if you are still in doubt.
Salam
Wael.
Guidelines on interactions with Non-Muslims - reepicheep - 03-17-2007
> was this clear Reep? please feel free to ask more if you are still in doubt.
No, it's not clear.
Do you agree with the following statement?
<b><i>Surah 3:32 states that "Surely Allah does not love the unbelievers." This proves that Allah loves some unbelievers.</i></b>
I don't see how your conclusion follows from Surah 3:32. "<b>Surely</b> Allah does not love the unbelievers". Allah's use of the word "surely" seems pretty conclusive that Allah does not love any unbelievers. I don't see how you can claim otherwise.
Guidelines on interactions with Non-Muslims - wel_mel_2 - 03-17-2007
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
Quote:No, it's not clear.
Ok here we go again… :)
Quote:Do you agree with the following statement?
Surah 3:32 states that "Surely Allah does not love the unbelievers." This proves that Allah loves some unbelievers.
Sometimes when we don’t understand certain verses in the Qur’an, we find the answers somewhere else also in the Qur’an.
For example, the Qur’an also states that
O ye who believe! take not for patrons those who take your religion for a jest or a sport, from amongst those who have been given the Book before and the misbelievers; but fear God if ye be believers.
Qur’an 5:57
So here you can clearly see that we are not supposed to take <b>CERTAIN</b> people from the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) as friends<b> but not ALL of them. </b>
Another verse says:
Thou shalt not find a people who believe in God and the last day loving him who opposes God and His Apostle, even though it be their fathers, or their sons, or their brethren, or their clansmen. He has written faith in their hearts, and He aids them with a spirit from Him; and will make them enter into gardens beneath which rivers flow, to dwell therein for aye! God is well pleased with them, and they well pleased with Him: they are God's crew; Nay, God's crew, they shall prosper!
Qur’an 58:22
So here again you can see clearly that we cannot be loving to those who oppose God and his messenger. <i>'opposing'</i> here is actually to the degree of fighting against us and wanting to hurt us. This verse came down in a certain context (<i>so you should also be aware of the situation in which certain verses were revealed</i> This is very important)
And lastly, this verse will end up the dispute insh a Allah:
<b>God forbids you not respecting those who have not fought against you for religion's sake</b>, <b>and who have not driven you forth from your homes, that ye should act righteously and justly towards them; verily</b>, <b>God loves the just</b>
! <b>He only forbids you to make patrons of those who have fought against you for religion's sake, and driven you forth from your homes, or have aided in your expulsion</b>; and whoever makes patrons of them, they are the unjust! Qur'an 60:8-9
So God loves those who are JUST, whether Muslims or Christians.
Salam
Wael.
Guidelines on interactions with Non-Muslims - reepicheep - 03-17-2007
Wel_mel_2 wrote:
> how can God love the unbelievers and at the same time promise
> them eternal Hell?
> So God loves those who are JUST, whether Muslims or Christians.
To summarize: you believe that God loves some Christians, even though they are unbelievers. Only people that God hates go to hell. Therefore, some Christians (the ones that God loves) go to heaven, even though they reject the koran and muslim theology.
Correct?
Guidelines on interactions with Non-Muslims - wel_mel_2 - 03-17-2007
Bismillah:Assalamo Alikum.
Quote:To summarize: you believe that God loves some Christians, even though they are unbelievers. Only people that God hates go to hell. Therefore, some Christians (the ones that God loves) go to heaven, even though they reject the koran and muslim theology.
Correct?
God loves only the believers among Chrisitans: The Qur'an says: "Ye [Muslims] are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in God. <b>If only the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] had faith, it were best for them</b>: among them are some who have faith,
but most of them are perverted transgressors. (Quran 3:110)"
So If they fulfill the requirements which were given in the Qur’an, then insh a Allah they will go to heaven.
"And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account. (Quran, 3:199)"
"Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. (The Noble Quran, 3:113-114)"
"Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (The Noble Quran, 2:62)"
"Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (The Noble Quran, 2:112)"
"Those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and establish regular prayers and regular charity, will have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (The Noble Quran, 2:277)"
Of the people of Moses (i.e., the Jews) there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. (The Noble Quran, 7:159)"
So if one fulfills these conditions, insh a Allah he will be in paradise.
Salam
Wael.