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"I am both Muslim and Christian" - Muslimah - 06-23-2007
Bismillah
Salam FHC
When a Christian prays, the person prays to God who is a part of 3, when Muslims perform Salat, they do so to the only One True Allah Who Does not consist of any parts. This is Abhraham's Allah, <b>Abraham's Allah Does not consist of 3 parts in one</b>. When a Christian prays, he/she draws the cross over the chest, and and and..kneels before status. right? this has nothing to do with Islam and cannt be acceptable.
"I am both Muslim and Christian" - Karbala - 06-25-2007
The belief that God dwells in all of us is a pantheistic belief even held by some Sufi muslims today.
Astaghfirullah may God save us if they take these terms literally. However I suspect with Redding the language she uses is metaphorical ie what she means is that we are all full of the "Spirit of God". If you were to directly ask her whether she believes that God is inside her in the sense of space and time literally I suspect she will say no.
So I do not think her metaphorical statements "God dwells in is" is a statement of a Mushrik.
As far as taking Jesus as her saviour I dont think she is worshipping Jesus rather it is the same if a muslim says that Mohammad(saw) is their saviour. It is just a term of respect and allegience.
As far as the crucifixion story goes that is a more complex matter. There are some muslims that interpret the Quranic verses to make room for the crucifixion of Christ. I personally have examined these interpretations cross referencing them with gospel narratives and have found the issue full of conjecture and lack of evidence to come up with a solid conclusion. I personally believe that believing in the crucifixion of Christ does not make one non-muslim although Christ definitely did not redeem the sins of all humanity (that belief would definitely involve Kufr).
Furthering Faith Hope Charity point when Redding leads a Christian congregation in prayer I see no objection to this as long as she does it in accordance with Islamic teaching. If she prays in the name of God and there happens to be a christian congregation I cannot see what is wrong with this.
"I am both Muslim and Christian" - wel_mel_2 - 06-25-2007
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
Quote:As far as the crucifixion story goes that is a more complex matter. There are some muslims that interpret the Quranic verses to make room for the crucifixion of Christ. I personally have examined these interpretations cross referencing them with gospel narratives and have found the issue full of conjecture and lack of evidence to come up with a solid conclusion.
My brother, the Qur'an clearly says <b>THEY KILLED HIM NOT, NOR CRUCIFIED HIM</b>". Could anyone have been more explicit, more unambiguous in rejecting the dogma of crucifixion than this?? "IMPOSSIBLE!". What conjecture are you talking about?
Quote:I personally believe that believing in the crucifixion of Christ does not make one non-muslim.
This is weird, because according to Christian dogmas, salvation can only be obtained through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, in other words, if you don't believe in the crucifixion, you don't obtain salvation. According to Christians, Jesus must die on the Cross, for a million human sacrifices cannot redeem mankind from their sin. How could these beliefs makes one a Muslim?
Quote:although Christ definitely did not redeem the sins of all humanity (that belief would definitely involve Kufr).
This is the idea of Crucifixion brother, otherwise, there is no point for him to die on the Cross if he would not redeem them from sin. And so, Muslims must reject this idea as it was clearly explained in the Qura'n and the Hadith.
Salam
Wael.
"I am both Muslim and Christian" - wel_mel_2 - 06-25-2007
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
Quote:I attended Salat with a group of Muslims last week & although I just sat & watched (because I didn't know the routine), I knew that their prayers reached the same place as my prayers go.
No, you direct your prayers to Jesus pbuh, or to the father, son and holy ghost. We direct our prayer to the one who created Jesus pbuh and the one who begets not nor was He begotten and there is nothing comparable to Him.
Salam
wael.
"I am both Muslim and Christian" - Karbala - 06-25-2007
<b>4:157 And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.</b>
Salam.
Personally I dont believe Jesus was crucified nor did he die. However the details of what happened I am not sure about. I dont accept the mainstream theory that Jesus was replaced by Judas or someone looking like Jesus. It may be possible but still apart from a mysterious Gospel of Barnabus I dont see much evidence for it.
However there are those who interpret the above verse 4:157 to make room for the crucifixion of Christ. Their argument is that the pronoun "they" in the verse refers to the Jews and hence the context of the verse is saying that "it wasnt the jews that killed or crucified Jesus". They claim that verse is rebuking the Jews who were gloating over there killing of Jesus, whereas it wasnt the Jews rather the Romans killed Jesus. Hence it is possible that Jesus was crucified.
I disagree with this interpretation since the expressions in 4:159 are so strong.
<b>4:159And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them.</b>
However I do admit that this interpretation is at least possible.
Quote:According to Christians, Jesus must die on the Cross, for a million human sacrifices cannot redeem mankind from their sin. How could these beliefs makes one a Muslim?
Is it not possible for someone to believe that Jesus was killed without believing he redeemed all of Mankinds sins? Would such a belief lead to Kufr? It wouldnt be the first time people had killed Prophets.
<b>2:91 Say: Why then did you kill Allah's Prophets before if you were indeed believers?</b>
Quote: This is the idea of Crucifixion brother, otherwise, there is no point for him to die on the Cross if he would not redeem them from sin. And so, Muslims must reject this idea as it was clearly explained in the Qura'n and the Hadith.
I disagree that the curcifixion of Christ = Christian belief of salvation. Other Prophets died at the hands of Bani Israel. No one believes that these Prophets could not have been killed since there was no point for them to be killed.
I have to admit my knowledge on this matter is limited since I have not really researched it much. I am willing to change my beliefs if someone brings better evidence. However at the moment I dont think believing in the crucifixion of Christ brings Kufr, even though I personally don't believe in it.
"I am both Muslim and Christian" - wel_mel_2 - 06-26-2007
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
Quote:[Personally I dont believe Jesus was crucified nor did he die. However the details of what happened I am not sure about. I dont accept the mainstream theory that Jesus was replaced by Judas or someone looking like Jesus. It may be possible but still apart from a mysterious Gospel of Barnabus I dont see much evidence for it.
However there are those who interpret the above verse 4:157 to make room for the crucifixion of Christ. Their argument is that the pronoun "they" in the verse refers to the Jews and hence the context of the verse is saying that "it wasnt the jews that killed or crucified Jesus". They claim that verse is rebuking the Jews who were gloating over there killing of Jesus, whereas it wasnt the Jews rather the Romans killed Jesus. Hence it is possible that Jesus was crucified.
It is not a matter of who killed him brother, the Qur'an say for a surety they <b>KILLED HIM NOT</b>, the focus in this verse is that Jesus pbuh was not killed by ANYBODY, Jews or Romans or whoever.
Quote:Is it not possible for someone to believe that Jesus was killed without believing he redeemed all of Mankinds sins? Would such a belief lead to Kufr? It wouldnt be the first time people had killed Prophets.
This is the point, killing Jesus according to Christians was for the purpose of redeeming mankind from sins, and so if he was not killed according to Paul, their faith would be in vain, he claims that salvation can only be obtained through the death and the resurrection of Jesus Christ pbuh.
<b>"If Christ be not risen from the dead, then our preaching is vain, and your faith is also vain." </b>
(1 Corinthians 15:14)
Quote:I disagree that the curcifixion of Christ = Christian belief of salvation.
This is what they believe brother, I too disagree with them, but I also believe that he was not killed as the Qur'an explains.
Quote:I have to admit my knowledge on this matter is limited since I have not really researched it much. I am willing to change my beliefs if someone brings better evidence. However at the moment I dont think believing in the crucifixion of Christ brings Kufr, even though I personally don't believe in it.
Believing in the crucifixion of Christ goes straight against the Qur'an where Allah plainly and explicitly says that they <b>crucified him NOT</b>. No more arguments should be added after this unambiguous declaration that Allah has made.
Salam
Wael.
"I am both Muslim and Christian" - Karbala - 06-26-2007
Salamun Alaikum
Quote: Believing in the crucifixion of Christ goes straight against the Qur'an where Allah plainly and explicitly says that they crucified him NOT. No more arguments should be added after this unambiguous declaration that Allah has made.
OK brother im inclined to agree with you. However for clarification sake how would you answer those who interpret the phrase "they did not kill him" to mean "they (the jews) did not kill him"? Can you rebutt them using the Quran? or even hadith?
Personally I have gone through most of the verses of Quran on this issue and have come the conclusion that Jesus wasnt killed. However the argument is fairly detailed and not as simple as it seems.
Quote: "If Christ be not risen from the dead, then our preaching is vain, and your faith is also vain."
(1 Corinthians 15:14)
I personally couldnt care less what Paul said he means nothing to me. I dont see how a Prophet being martyred could be in vain unless everyone believes he redeemed us all. Again I maintain that even though I myself dont believe Jesus was killed I wouldnt call a muslim who believes in it a non-muslim.
"I am both Muslim and Christian" - wel_mel_2 - 06-27-2007
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
Quote:OK brother im inclined to agree with you. However for clarification sake how would you answer those who interpret the phrase "they did not kill him" to mean "they (the jews) did not kill him"? Can you rebutt them using the Quran? or even hadith?
First of all the Qur'an never say that <b>the Jews did not kill Jesus pbuh</b>, the Qur'an clearly says that <b>THEY SAID </b>
THAT THEY HAVE KILLED HIM, but Allah plainly told us that he was not killed, nor crucified, so the question whether the Jews or the Romans have killed Jesus pbuh should not arise, simply because he was not killed in the first place.
That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
<b>And because of their saying (WA QAWLEHEM)</b>
: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! Those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.] (4:156-158)
Quote:Personally I have gone through most of the verses of Quran on this issue and have come the conclusion that Jesus wasnt killed. However the argument is fairly detailed and not as simple as it seems.
Well, I found this subject to be as easier as the concept of one God in Islam, <b>no confusion at all</b>, we are just making ourselves so busy with unnecessary matters.
Quote:"If Christ be not risen from the dead, then our preaching is vain, and your faith is also vain."
(1 Corinthians 15:14)
I personally couldnt care less what Paul said he means nothing to me. I dont see how a Prophet being martyred could be in vain unless everyone believes he redeemed us all. Again I maintain that even though I myself dont believe Jesus was killed I wouldnt call a muslim who believes in it a non-muslim.
I would call him a Muslim<b> who rejected a very basic part of Islam</b>, and I don't know how shall we address such "<i>a muslim</i>"
Salam
Wael
"I am both Muslim and Christian" - Hadji - 06-27-2007
Quote:<b>That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;</b> And because of their saying (WA QAWLEHEM) : We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! Those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.] (4:156-158)
I could be wrong, but the Jews are the ones who have uttered the false charge.
Quote:First of all the Qur'an never say that the Jews did not kill Jesus pbuh
I'm pretty sure that the verse is talking about the Jews.
Anyways, the argument I'm more familiar with is that the term "crucified" describes a person who dies on the cross. Both Shabir Ally and Ahmed Deedat claim that Christ was on the cross but survived and wasn't killed.
Look up Deedat's debate with Douglass and Ally's with William Lane Craig. In my opinion, Christ never was on the cross. Deedat and Ally did have some evidence, but the thought of Christ surviving the crucifixion is scientifically impossible in my opinion. I wouldn't call them unbelievers for misinterpreting the Qur'an though.
"I am both Muslim and Christian" - wel_mel_2 - 06-27-2007
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
Quote:I could be wrong, but the Jews are the ones who have uttered the false charge.
You are not wrong, this is the truth, and there was no mention at all about the Romans in the Qur'an regarding the allege crucifixion of Jesus pbuh.
Quote:Anyways, the argument I'm more familiar with is that the term "crucified" describes a person who dies on the cross. Both Shabir Ally and Ahmed Deedat claim that Christ was on the cross but survived and wasn't killed.
Deedat was using the Bible to prove his point that Jesus was not killed, but we are talking now about the Islamic view point, which Allah makes it so clear that JESUS WAS NOT KILLED NOR CRUCIFIED, And in my own opinion, <b>NOR CRUCIFIED </b> means that he was not put on the cross in the first place. <b>Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power,Wise; </b> 4:158
Salam
Wael.