Holy Spirit and Jesus are ONE?

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Holy Spirit and Jesus are ONE? - wel_mel_2 - 12-27-2007

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Quote:Peace.....

It always seems to amaze me that whenever we speak about the way Mary became pregnant for some reason people can't seem to move beyond the physical act of intercourse. Let me add on to this topic for the benefit of those who are not believers in Christ.

Who said that we are talking about any male intervention when the birth of Jesus Christ is our topic?
We are talking about the earthly language of the Bible which makes us understand the concept of Jesus' birth in that sense
, and this is one of the reasons why I don't believe in the Bible to be God's word.

My thought was about Jesus and the Holy Ghost being ONE in nature, and that Jesus was THERE since time immemorial as Christian claims, and so
it was he who visited his mother to announce the birth of the Holy one
, in other words,
it was HE WHO IMPREGNATE HIS OWN MOTHER
. This is my observation to the whole situation, although you believe that the son Jesus and the Ghost are separate persons,
but yet you still believe that they ARE ONE GOD,
 and that's why i keep on asking, are they ONE OR NOT? but no one is giving me straight forward answer!!!

Salam

Wael.

Holy Spirit and Jesus are ONE? - umm Zachariah - 12-28-2007

Bismillah

Wel_mel_2

Assalamu alaikum

I did find some interesting points in your input that I would like to kind of highlight, just for my own curiosity.

Quote:We are talking about Jesus and the Ghost being ONE, now you makes me understand that Jesus alone is NOT GOD, the Holy Ghost alone is NOT GOD, and the Father alone is NOT GOD, you are trying to say Father, son and Holy Ghost when together ONLY they complete the ONE TRUE GOD, but each one on his own is NOT GOD.

Now this needs to be straightened out, truly. If the unities are equally God then would it not be appropriate to address whomsoever of them as 'God' - 'God the Holy Spirit' for example and turn to him in prayer?

Quote:I insist on "sometimes" because, you can't find anyone during the OT time calling God Jesus for example, and that's why I used the term 'sometimes'. Even today, no Christian will always pray to God addressing him by Trinity, he will either pray to Jesus or to the Father.

Kind of same point is I just mentioned.

Quote:I don't claim that we worship different gods, I always say that our concept of that God is totally different, that's it.

I agree to that, as a monotheist believes there is only One Creator.

Another point.

Quote:My thought was about Jesus and the Holy Ghost being ONE in nature, and that Jesus was THERE since time immemorial as Christian claims, and so it was he who visited his mother to announce the birth of the Holy one, in other words, it was HE WHO IMPREGNATE HIS OWN MOTHER.

This is rather too much in a way for me...'impregnated by her own son' can also be the outcome of this....if the unities are all one...

Holy Spirit and Jesus are ONE? - Muslimah - 12-28-2007

Bismillah

as salam alykom Wael welcome back.

Let me try and clear some confusion here, wael if you agree with Shamms

Who said that we are talking about any male intervention when the birth of Jesus Christ is our topic

Then you cannt say that

in other words, it was HE WHO IMPREGNATE HIS OWN MOTHER.

Are you getting the point, if you agree to the first point then you will be contradicting yourself to say the second.

announce the birth is a totaly different act, and matter of fact this is exactly where the Nazarines got confused with the identity of Eassa salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam or more to say this is the point that was used by whoever sought to invent and innovate to ascribe divinity to Eassa salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam.

Quote:Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
Who said that we are talking about any male intervention when the birth of Jesus Christ is our topic? We are talking about the earthly language of the Bible which makes us understand the concept of Jesus' birth in that sense, and this is one of the reasons why I don't believe in the Bible to be God's word.

My thought was about Jesus and the Holy Ghost being ONE in nature, and that Jesus was THERE since time immemorial as Christian claims, and so it was he who visited his mother to announce the birth of the Holy one, in other words, it was HE WHO IMPREGNATE HIS OWN MOTHER. This is my observation to the whole situation, although you believe that the son Jesus and the Ghost are separate persons, but yet you still believe that they ARE ONE GOD, and that's why i keep on asking, are they ONE OR NOT? but no one is giving me straight forward answer!!!

Salam

Wael.

Holy Spirit and Jesus are ONE? - AlShamms - 12-28-2007

Peace.....

Wael, I have to say we agree on this point..........

Quote:Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
We are talking about the earthly language of the Bible which makes us understand the concept of Jesus' birth in that sense, and this is one of the reasons why I don't believe in the Bible to be God's word.

My thought was about Jesus and the Holy Ghost being ONE in nature, and that Jesus was THERE since time immemorial as Christian claims, and so it was he who visited his mother to announce the birth of the Holy one, in other words, it was HE WHO IMPREGNATE HIS OWN MOTHER. This is my observation to the whole situation, although you believe that the son Jesus and the Ghost are separate persons, but yet you still believe that they ARE ONE GOD, and that's why i keep on asking, are they ONE OR NOT? but no one is giving me straight forward answer!!!

Salam

Wael.

And that being the language the Bible has been transliterated into is indeed a corrupt language, it has length and width, but no depth of meaning. Which is why it is always important to go back to the original languages the Bible was first written in; Hebrew and Greek. Once you define the Hebrew and Greek, we can get the exact meaning of God's word in the Bible.

As to your second point, Yes Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one in nature, in that they have the nature of Jehovah God, which is why you hear christians profess, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. However there are three persons, it is what is called a mystery. No verse IMO better shows Jesus' divinity in relation to both Jehovah and the Holy Spirit than in Paul's letter to the believers in Philipi:

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;

And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

(Philipians 2:5-11)

I hope this makes my position a little more clear

Shamms

Holy Spirit and Jesus are ONE? - wel_mel_2 - 01-02-2008

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Quote:Bismillah
as salam alykom Wael welcome back.

Let me try and clear some confusion here, wael if you agree with Shamms

Who said that we are talking about any male intervention when the birth of Jesus Christ is our topic

Then you cannt say that

in other words, it was HE WHO IMPREGNATE HIS OWN MOTHER.

Are you getting the point, if you agree to the first point then you will be contradicting yourself to say the second.

There is no contradiction here sister, you just didn't get my point clearly :) . i am sure it was my fault.

Of course I do agree with the first point (i.e. Christians do not believe that Jesus' birth has anything to do with male intervention) but yet the language that was used by the authors of the Bible shows us something entirely different. Are you now getting what am trying to say?

Let me clarify further.

The Bible says in Mathew 1:18

before they came together, ( Joseph and Mary as husband and wife) she was found with child of the holy ghost."

side note please; the child here is OF THE HOLY GHOST, which indicates that Jesus is the son of the Holy Ghost too, and not only the Son of God the father.


Anyways, according to Deedat's book "Christ in Islam" regarding the above verse he said:

Quote:The eminent Billy Graham from the United States of America dramatized this verse in front of 40,000 people in King Park, Durban, with his index finger sticking out and swinging his outstretched arm from right to left, he said: "And the Holy Ghost came and impregnated Mary!" On the other hand St. Luke tells us the very same thing but less crudely. He says, that when the annunciation was made, Mary was perturbed.

Alhamdulelah, it was not only me who used this word "impregnate" with regards to Jesus' birth, but Billy Graham, one of the most populars Christian scholars agreed with me.

Now back to the point that am trying to highlight here, which is the language of the Bible that proves to me at least that God Almighty did not inspire any of the authors of the Bible to write down God's words as claimed by the Christians.

Ahmed Deedat also said in the same book, "Christ in Islam" after quoting the Qur'anic verses concerning Jesus' birth.

Quote:"She said: O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" (3:47)
He said (the angel says in reply): 'Even so: Allah (God) createth what He willeth: when He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!' " (3:47)

This is the Muslim concept of the birth of Jesus. For God to create a Jesus, without a human father, He merely has to will it. If He wants to create a million Jesus' without fathers or mothers, He merely wills them into existence.

God doesn't need to send His Holy Ghost to COME UPON MARY in order for Jesus to be born, this is what I cannot accept at all, plus I am not saying anything new here, the concept of God's creation is to be found in Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light., He does not need to connect any plug in order to have light, He just said to the Light BE and it was, and so the concept of Jesus' birth in the Qur'an is much more accurate and reasonable than the Bible.

I hope that was clear insh a Allah.

Salam

Wael.

Holy Spirit and Jesus are ONE? - Muslimah - 01-02-2008

Bismillah

Thus, I tried to focus on your main point here, that you fully agree that it cannt be possible - astagherullah- that the holy ghost impregnanted Mary even in the metaphoric sense. You want to say that the language of the bible is shocking and misexpressing specially in a very delicate and sensitative area such as this one, that even our Nazarine members couldnt take it. That is what makes you sure that it cannt be a divine revelation. That was the main point. Am I correct?????

sorry for me causing more confusion.

Quote:Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
Now back to the point that am trying to highlight here, which is the language of the Bible that proves to me at least that God Almighty did not inspire any of the authors of the Bible to write down God's words as claimed by the Christians.

Salam

Wael.

Holy Spirit and Jesus are ONE? - Muslimah - 01-02-2008

Bismillah

PHC,

Instead of loosing your temper and start insulting Wael publicly, just stop and look at exactly what he wanted to say, may be it took me sometime to come to his point, may be it wasnt clear. What he wanted to say is exactly what you are objecting to that he said it although it is part of the bible. Thus, what he says is that the style used in the bible to explain this great miracle which we are quite aware of and respect much, is degrading. The style of writing is inappropriate to the incident. Can you see that. Even you, just because Wael explained it plainly, couldnt take it.

Leave alone the confusion raised when the bible says that Jesus is also she was found with child of the holy ghost.

Now you need to decide: Is he son of god, man, or the holy ghost????????????????????

Rather than banging your head against the table and call Wale names, I think you will need to join an advanced theology course to sort this one out.

And I will not permit that you call Wael or any other member names, if you cannt take the situation, just drink some warm milk and breath in an out but control your temper and maintain respect.

Quote:If you substitute the word "impregnate" with "overshadow" then there'd be no reason for you to think with a filthy mind & maybe, just maybe, you'd be able to understand this incredible mystery that Christians worldwide are celebrating in this current season. No one can kill my Christmas buzz at the moment.
I have to draw the line somewhere. Some of the absurdity that comes out of your mouth, Wael, is not worthy of a dignified response. In any case, I'll defend your right of freedom of silly speech anyday.

Take it easy!

Faith Hope Charity Openness Tolerance Equality

Holy Spirit and Jesus are ONE? - wel_mel_2 - 01-03-2008

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Quote:Bismillah
Thus, I tried to focus on your main point here, that you fully agree that it cannt be possible - astagherullah- that the holy ghost impregnanted Mary even in the metaphoric sense. You want to say that the language of the bible is shocking and misexpressing specially in a very delicate and sensitative area such as this one, that even our Nazarine members couldnt take it. That is what makes you sure that it cannt be a divine revelation. That was the main point. Am I correct?????

Yeah I guess I've said it plainly before that Muslims and Christians do believe that Jesus was born miraculously without any male intervention, we are both, Muslims and Christians trying to say the same thing that Jesus was born without any physical interaction. However, the Christians would be reading in the Qur'an about Jesus' birth but in most noble, elevated and sublime language, unlike the Bible.

I say, Luke 1:35 should be thrown out from the Bible, or else the Christians must agree with me that the visitor who CAME UPON MARY (whether physically, metaphorically or whatever) was Jesus himself, since all persons in Trinity are ONE IN NATURE as claimed by Christians.

FHC did not find it difficult at all when her priests or other Catholics address Mary as "the Spouse of God" and "Spouse of the Holy Ghost" but yet she couldn't swallow the word "impregnated by the Holy Ghost" when I used it !!!

Let us see what some Catholics like FHC would say about Mary.

Quote:"The Blessed Virgin Mary, says Saint Augustine, "was the only one who merited to be called the Mother of God and spouse of God. She became the Mother of God because she was the spouse of the Holy Ghost: "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee" (Luke 1:35)

As you can all see, the author of this article quoted the same verse Luke 1:35 after his own declaration that Mary was the spouse of the Holy Ghost!!!!!!!!!!!!! and now she became a mother too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:He "the Holy Ghost" formed within her the sacred Body of Jesus. Justly, therefore, does Mary desrve the name of Spouse of the Holy Ghost: she is His possession, His sanctuary, His temple.

Quote:Mary is always the faithful Spouse of the Holy Ghost, attentive and docile to all His impulses and inspirations.

Quote:O Blessed Lady, all pure and holy, you proclaimed yourself to be the handmaid and spouse of God, and you have truly lived as such, always humbly submissive to His holy will, always ready to respond to His call and invitation. O Spouse of God and Daughter of Heaven come to meet me during this month......

Mary, The Spouse of the Holy Ghost and Handmaid of God

Quote:Enraptured by Mary's beauty, the Holy Spirit exclaims in admiration: "How beautiful art thou, My Love!" (Cant. 4: 1) But it was above all at the Incarnation of the Son of God that Mary became the true Spouse of the Holy Spirit for she conceived the Eternal Word in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Quote:Through Mary we must seek grace, for she is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and all graces are dispensed through her hands. Let us often greet Mary as the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.

THE IMMACULATE SPOUSE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

I think my point now has become clearer, hopefully insh a Allah.

Salam

Wael.