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Bible for Children - Steve Consilvio - 08-02-2009
Quote:Hi Steve,
It seems to me like a roundabout way of saying that whatever is written in the Bible isnt really all that important. What do you have it for anyway? A prop? If you just want to rely on feelings and 'life experiance' and the like what is the importance of the Bible at all then? What would be the <b>importance</b> of any particular religion at all for that matter??
Sorry for interjecting, but that just threw me.
Of course it is important, but it is useless if you don't understand it.
A tool is a tool in the hand of a skilled craftsman, but it is a weapon in the hand of the Devil.
The 'importance' of all religions is exactly the same: to bring us closer together with one another and with God.
I don't expect a child to be a crafts-person, but I do expect adults to be.
As parents, we are teachers. Bigotry and error is passed from generation to generation as easily as the Spirit.
The standard is similar for those called to Holy Orders.
Quote:James 3:1
Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.
A 'prop' is a funny way of putting it, given the theater of worship. People go to movies and sporting events and sit passively, and like industrial man working at a machine, they labor in a mindless slumber. The ballgame always ends the same way; one person wins and another loses. In the movies, the good guy wins and the bad guy loses. Rote becomes a ritual, too.
People pray when they should act, and act when they should pray. Pray and prey always seem to be mixed up.
Bible for Children - Faith Hope Charity - 08-02-2009
Peace of Christ be with you!
Quote:Don't get me wrong FHC ok? I just can't imagine that you were reading as a child, the story of Amnon raping his sister, and understood it to mean something else? Let me bring the whole story here.
What disturbed me the most is that Amnon was left unpunished by God, so what was the lesson behind this 'revelation'? and how could you read and imagine what happened as a kid?
This story is featured in one of the "Historical" books of the Holy Bible. Historical books contain candid accounts of real life events that took place in salvation history. The story of Amnon highlights the fact that there was crisis in the tribe of Judah and many members went astray from God & led sinful lives. Amnon was subject to Absalom's desire for vengeance & eventually killed. Just goes to show that being unfaithful to Yahweh will led to sin, & sin breeds more sin. In a children's Bible the 2 books of Samuel are usually summarised in about a page, just to get the primary message across.
Quote:What did you understand from the story of the 2 sisters found in Ezekiel 23? did you get anything other than lust, prostitution, breasts, and private parts which were like donkeys, and sperm which was like that of horses. I am sorry to speak in this manner, but I am eager to understand how Steve is encouraging his kids to read the Bible on their own and how your parents were letting you read these materials?
This account is actually allegorical. The two sisters aren't real life persons. They represent two kingdoms, Samaria & Jerusalem. It's a symbolic story depicting the dangerous alliances with pagan nations. The unrefined language used in the passage helps to show that the behaviour of the two kingdoms cannot in any way be justified. The metaphors can be altered to make it more children-friendly, however, the moral of the story cannot be changed.
God bless.
Bible for Children - Muslimah - 08-02-2009
Bismillah
FHC, do you mean that children are not having access to the word of God (the bible is supposed to be) as it came from God, but rather it is subjected to alterations and summarisation to make friendly???
And regarding the unrefined language, actually I asked this question before and got a reply from Shamms about metaphores etc. I understand the metaphore part, but just tell me, do u feel that this langauge is fit to be included in a divine book, the metaphor approach is soo wide and other styles can be easily employed specially that the source is divine?
What do u think??
Bible for Children - Faith Hope Charity - 08-02-2009
Assalamu Alaikum, Muslimah!
Quote:FHC, do you mean that children are not having access to the word of God (the bible is supposed to be) as it came from God, but rather it is subjected to alterations and summarisation to make friendly???
As I have stated numerous times on this forum, the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living" - Jesus Christ (CCC 108).
The Holy Bible is the written word of God. It was spoken by the Apostles & their successors (priests & bishops) prior to it being written down. Before the compilation of the various books combined to form the Holy Bible in the 4th century AD, the exact same message of truth was transmitted to children & adults alike through oral teaching & preaching. This is called Sacred Tradition & it is bound to Sacred Scripture. Both are inspired by God.
St Augustine said centuries before Islam entered the world that God speaks only one single Word in Sacred Scripture: "You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is the one and same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since He who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables" (CCC 102).
Without a doubt, the Church venerates the Holy Bible & encourages the faithful to read it, study it, & live it. The Holy Bible is not to be read in a literalistic sense. The words needs to be reflected on in a literal, spiritual, allegorigal, moral, & anagogical sense. Therefore, if a children's Bible uses synonyms or briefly sums up lengthy chapters in short paragraphs, all the while ensuring that the true message remains the same, then the Word of God is being received in full.
Quote:And regarding the unrefined language, actually I asked this question before and got a reply from Shamms about metaphores etc. I understand the metaphore part, but just tell me, do u feel that this langauge is fit to be included in a divine book, the metaphor approach is soo wide and other styles can be easily employed specially that the source is divine?
What do u think??
In the O/T, the covenant between Yahweh & Israel is like a marriage covenant between a husband & wife. Catholicism is unique in the sense that it is the only world religion which does not permit divorce, because the union of one man & one woman is believed to be sacred and unbreakable. In order to understand the scope of unfaithfulness & infidelity of God's chosen people, powerful & explicit language is used. I don't think it's inappropriate, but then again, Catholics approach Sacred Scripture in a very different way than you a as Muslim would. In fact, I'd use the same language when interpreting these passages to my children. It's important that everybody from an early age grasp an authentic understanding of one's relationship to God & to his/her (future) spouse.
Peace & blessings.
Bible for Children - Steve Consilvio - 08-02-2009
Quote:do u feel that this langauge is fit to be included in a divine book,
The questions we ask always reveal how we understand things. This type of language reveals a personal projection of what you think God is supposed to be.
When discussing issues with atheists, they would always follow the same line of thought. For example, God is supposed to love everyone, so therefore why should anybody be punished. Ergo, God does not exist, by God's only definition. But it was they who set the standard of what God was supposed to do. Saying what is 'fit' to be in scripture is the same thing.
While there are various forms of bigotry; religious, racial, economic, etc., all bigotry is self-created based upon our expectations, and our mistaken pride. It is not our job to arrange the world into our expectations, but to fit ourselves into God's expectations.
I must admit, however, that God is in some ways a bigot. He will divide us into two groups of the good and not so good. Having a group of 'chosen ones' (the Hebrews) and taking a nation from within a nation would certainly appear to promote bigotry, and history has seen much bigotry as a result of this action. Nevertheless, God seems to always know what He is doing, and is ahead of our thinking by many centuries. Just as we have revelations as individuals, so too does the world seem to have revelations, albeit more slowly. The various nations all share a common history, though they are all in different places at any particular time. Kind of light from the stars, you can see all the various stages simultaneously. The same is true of how people think. Children ask childish things, the wise ask wise things, and we all ask the questions that are inbetween.
In other words, think about how you think.
Bible for Children - wel_mel_2 - 08-03-2009
Bismillah: Assalamo ALikum.
<b>Steve.</b>
Quote:I think it was Jacob who slept with his daughter-in-law, who was posing as a prostitute, because he was not giving her his due respect, after the death of his son and her husband.
It was Judah who commits incest with his daughter in law and conceived twins who became the great-grand fathers of Jesus Christ.
Jacob was the victim of his own son who commits incest with his father's concubine.
Quote:My kids get most of their bible reading from church. One year for Christmas, I gave them all a copy of a "bible story of the day" book. Only one of them read it.
Yes, but you don’t give them the story of Judah and his daughter in law to read, do you?
Quote:Kids don't need to read scripture to learn about the dark side of human nature, it is all around them.
I am not talking about the dark side of human nature; I am stressing the point of what they might get by reading those stories. Aren’t you worry that they might (<i>God forbid</i>) imitate what happened in the story of Amnon? Haven’t you heard the recent rape story that took place in USA when a child of 11 years old rapes a 6 year old girl while watching a movie from their bed side?
Quote:To learn the light of scripture is a totally different matter. I encourage them to read, but it more important for them to think. The Holy Spirit is written on our hearts. They will know it more as they grow, at a pace of their and God's choosing.
So clearly, you have no problem at all if they read these materials? For example, you have no objection if they were found reading things like:
“She took hold of him and kissed him and with a brazen face she said. “I have fellowship offerings at home, today I fulfilled my vows. So I came out to meet you; I looked for you and have found you. I have covered my bed with colored linens from Egypt. I have perfumed by bed with myrrh aloes and cinnamon. Come let’s drink deep of love till morning, let’s enjoy ourselves with love. My husband is not home; he has gone on a long journey.
So you are encouraging them to read the above (<i>just as an example</i>), and come up with the proper meaning or wisdom by themselves (<i>to think</i>)? You just are trying to tell me, that they will never think of an adulteress inviting a stranger in her home, telling him how she perfumed her bed for him to enjoy ‘<i>love</i>’ till the morning, because her husband is not around. Are you trying to say, that Children can never think of what is originally written?
Quote:Of course, it is good for them to know the past, but the goal is to understand the past, and the present with it.
You see I don’t turn on my TV on porn and call my children to watch and at the same time inform them that what they are watching is really bad, and that these people are going to burn in hell.
<b>FHC</b>
Quote:This story is featured in one of the "Historical" books of the Holy Bible. Historical books contain candid accounts of real life events that took place in salvation history. The story of Amnon highlights the fact that there was crisis in the tribe of Judah and many members went astray from God & led sinful lives. Amnon was subject to Absalom's desire for vengeance & eventually killed. Just goes to show that being unfaithful to Yahweh will led to sin, & sin breeds more sin. In a children's Bible the 2 books of Samuel are usually summarised in about a page, just to get the primary message across.
This account is actually allegorical. The two sisters aren't real life persons. They represent two kingdoms, Samaria & Jerusalem. It's a symbolic story depicting the dangerous alliances with pagan nations. The unrefined language used in the passage helps to show that the behaviour of the two kingdoms cannot in any way be justified. The metaphors can be altered to make it more children-friendly, however, the moral of the story cannot be changed.
If you notice, in my previous post, I clearly said that I don’t judge the intention behind what was written. I even don’t object your interpretation of those verses at all. What I am absolutely sure about is that if my kids were reading these materials, they will only understand what they are reading. They will never imagine that the two whores of Ezekiel 23 are in fact Samaria and Jerusalem; they will not get that private parts, lust etc refers to something else. The danger is there Kathie; a mental picture has been drawn in the minds of our little ones.
Salam
Wael.
Bible for Children - Faith Hope Charity - 08-03-2009
Saalam Wael!
Quote:<b>FHC</b>
If you notice, in my previous post, I clearly said that I don’t judge the intention behind what was written. I even don’t object your interpretation of those verses at all. What I am absolutely sure about is that if my kids were reading these materials, they will only understand what they are reading. They will never imagine that the two whores of Ezekiel 23 are in fact Samaria and Jerusalem; they will not get that private parts, lust etc refers to something else. The danger is there Kathie; a mental picture has been drawn in the minds of our little ones.
I was exposed to it as a youngster & I like to think that I turned out okay :) In fact, one of the spiritual exercises I engage in is to approach Sacred Scripture with the pure & innocent heart of a child. There's no better way to receive God's Word, if you ask me.
St Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven."
Bible for Children - wel_mel_2 - 08-03-2009
Quote:Saalam Wael!
I was exposed to it as a youngster & I like to think that I turned out okay
Well, there were also other children who were perverted by these stories.
Salam
Wael.
Bible for Children - Steve Consilvio - 08-03-2009
Children are children. Everything they are exposed to they do not understand.
We are just grains of wheat, maturing over the years, until we bear our fruits.
You can try to 'speed up' the process a little bit, but it is really beyond the scope of our powers.
Teach children to love. It isn't that complicated. Of course, you must understand love before you can teach it.
As you mentioned in the other thread, you are skeptical of Christians. That is another way of saying that you are mistrusting. So you will inevitably teach mistrust, too, because that is who you are.
Why do people fear God? Yet, in every religion, the story is the same. The more virtuous the prophet, the more he is hated and mistrusted.
Bible for Children - wel_mel_2 - 08-03-2009
Quote:Children are children. Everything they are exposed to they do not understand.
We are just grains of wheat, maturing over the years, until we bear our fruits.
You can try to 'speed up' the process a little bit, but it is really beyond the scope of our powers.
Teach children to love. It isn't that complicated. Of course, you must understand love before you can teach it.
Why do people fear God? Yet, in every religion, the story is the same. The more virtuous the prophet, the more he is hated and mistrusted.
All what you have said in the above post have nothing to do with my reasoning, and so I would prefer to keep silent. Only I would like to comment on this statement:
Quote:As you mentioned in the other thread, you are skeptical of Christians. That is another way of saying that you are mistrusting. So you will inevitably teach mistrust, too, because that is who you are.
I did not say that, it was FHC who claimed that I am trying to trap the Christians by my questions, and I did ignore his allegation because normally I don't respond to personal attack.
Salam
Wael.