John 1 - Printable Version +- Forums (https://bb.islamsms.com) +-- Forum: ENGLISH (https://bb.islamsms.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=5) +--- Forum: Discussion of Beliefs (https://bb.islamsms.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=25) +--- Thread: John 1 (/showthread.php?tid=6066) |
John 1 - Muslimah - 07-29-2009 Bismillah as salam alykom all I m just here to welcome FHC back :) and Steve, has really been a long time, good to see u back. Insh a Allah we see more of your contribution.:) John 1 - wel_mel_2 - 07-29-2009 Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum. Welcome back Steve and FCH, glad to see you around once again. :D <b>Steve Consilvio</b> Quote:The trinity is a perpetual stumbling block for Muslims, etc. And for some Christians too right? Trinity was not part of early Christianity; it has developed over the time and was not taught by Jesus or his disciples. Trinity is just a <i>'fourth century creed' </i>that was decided by Constantine and won a place over other Christian groups who have existed in the first few centuries after Jesus and never heard of anything called Trinity. Quote:There are many questions which require some acceptance of faith and mystery. I agree, there are plenty of issues that are unexplainable, even in Islam (i.e. like the rituals of Hajj etc), however these matters does not take a person to Hellfire as in the case of Trinity which is the core belief of some Christians. It has become a dogma that if you did not accept it, you are domed to Hell, <i>'Ok, can I understand it? No you can't you just have to believe in it</i>.' So my point is that I should fully understand something that my entire salvation depends upon, after that everything else will follow, but the basics that take me to heaven or hell should be made crystal clear. Trinity was declared as a mystery simply because everyone failed to explain how three beings could be one and the same thing, but my question was, “which person died on the Cross? Jesus the God or the human since you are claiming that he has two natures? And so according to John 1:14 it was God Himself who died (i.e. The Word/Jesus/God who became flesh). <b>FHC</b> Quote:Jesus Christ is the Son of God incarnate. He is one Person, not two. Therefore, it is fitting to say that the Son of God died, only possible because He assumed a mortal human nature. However it is important to remember that death could not contain Him, He rose on the third day. By dying He destroyed our death & by rising He restored our life. Again, this does not help answering my question at all. I already understood that Jesus is one person (i.e. the second person of the Triune God). But you are saying that he is totally and fully God as well. So in the beginning the son Jesus was there with God, who Himself was God and then later he/God/Jesus became human and died on the Cross. <b>Can't you see FHC? God Himself died not just the human Jesus.</b> Salam Wael. John 1 - Steve Consilvio - 07-29-2009 I only have a moment, but let me make a couple of points to your good questions. 1. Jesus was like a man, but not a man. He could raise the dead, walk on water, stop a storm, etc. Those are things that God does, not prophets. He is in a totally different class of man, but he bled, too. The alpha and the omega, being two things simultaneously. 2. If we accept the scripture, then we must accept the narrative, too. Scripture is full of three things: Instruction, Description and Prediction. It is critically important to be aware of all three, lest description become accepted as instruction, and one does the exact opposite of what one was instructed to do, as is common. According to scripture, Jesus was foretold, and he fits the narrative. He is God's Isaac. 3. Jesus himself says that when he leaves that another is coming, namely the Holy Spirit. He introduces the trinity, not the church. More interestingly, in my mind, is that the Spirit has a more powerful role than Jesus. John 14: 15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. John 1 - wel_mel_2 - 07-30-2009 Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum. Quote:I only have a moment, but let me make a couple of points to your good questions. Two things wrong you have mentioned in the above point: 1- Jesus is not a man, and 2- That he was a different class of man because the miracles he had performed. The first point can be refuted easily by a simple quotation from your Bible where Peter (<i>the right hand of Jesus</i>) declared plainly to the children of Israel that Jesus was indeed a man and that his miracles were actually done by God alone and not by some kind of special power that Jesus himself possess. "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, <b>a man </b>approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, <b>which God did by him</b> in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know" Acts 2:22 I also wanted to remind you of greater miracles that were performed by other than Jesus in the same Bible and yet you have not considered them as <i>'totally different class of men'</i> Elijah raised the dead (I Kings 17:20-23) Elishah raised the dead (II Kings 4:30-36) Elishah's dead bone raised the dead (II Kings 13:20-22) Moses create a live snake (Exodus 4:2-4) Elishah caused the blind to see (II Kings 6:15-24) Elisha healed the lepers (II Kings 5:10-14) Elisha fed a hundred persons with few loafs (II Kings 4:42-44) So not only people and prophets did perform great miracles, but they’ve even proved that the miracles of Jesus were not unique at all. The thing that you don’t know is that even during Jesus’ time, lots of people used to perform miracles. For example among them are Jewish holy men like Hanina ben Dosa and Honi the circle drawer, there were also pagans miracle workers in the time of Jesus, like Apollonius who could heal the sick, cast out devils and even raise the dead. There were also pagan demigods like Hercules who could also bring back the dead. So if you are willing to accept Jesus as a miracle worker, we have no objection, but you should know that his miracles were not unique and were not perform by his own power. (<b>God did by him, said Peter in Acts 2:22</b>) Quote:2. If we accept the scripture, then we must accept the narrative, too. Scripture is full of three things: Instruction, Description and Prediction. It is critically important to be aware of all three, lest description become accepted as instruction, and one does the exact opposite of what one was instructed to do, as is common. According to scripture, Jesus was foretold, and he fits the narrative. He is God's Isaac. I agree that he was foretold, although his name was not mentioned even once in any of these prophecies, but for the sake of argument I would not object that Jesus was prophesied in the OT, however in none of these prophecies he was called God's Isaac or God the creator etc. the prophecies mainly were speaking about the coming Messiah. Quote:3. Jesus himself says that when he leaves that another is coming, namely the Holy Spirit. He introduces the trinity, not the church. More interestingly, in my mind, is that the Spirit has a more powerful role than Jesus. This is yet another debatable issue, let us first focus on our main topic, whether God died as described in the gospel according to John or that something went wrong in this gospel. Salam Wael. John 1 - Steve Consilvio - 07-30-2009 Quote:This is yet another debatable issue, let us first focus on our main topic, whether God died as described in the gospel according to John or that something went wrong in this gospel. The main topic, unspoken but clearly implied, is that Christianity is contradictory, and therefore faulty. But the truth cannot be contradictory, and Christianity is part of the truth. The "something went wrong in this gospel" is your interpretation based upon your own definitions. Rather than looking for what is wrong (pessimism,) perhaps the effort should be spent on what is right (optimism). In a mathematical equation, there are an infinite number of wrong answers. Studying wrong answers has a purpose, if it leads one to the right answers. But being an expert on all the wrong answers is an exhaustive search, which can never bear fruit, since by definition there are an infinite number of wrong answers. You primary point was that the Trinity was contradictory, created by man in the 4th century, and Christians are confused to accept it. Christ clearly introduces the Spirit, which refutes your entire argument. As to what constitutes "death" and "life", they are both just an illusion. The universe is the same as it has always been. We cannot even explain our own consciousness, yet you expect to be able to explain that God died? I do not read what you claim at all. As far as your point that the miracles come from God, that is a good point, but then, all things come from God, except evil. Should we set up a scientific lab to measure miracles? That is obviously an oxymoron, since every miracle is a failed scientific explanation. The purpose of scripture is to discover the spirit (grace) not win arguments. It is certainly quite possible that God granted favors on many to perform miracles, throughout the ages. God can do what He wants when He wants. Our only charge is to understand and follow. Scripture are notes about what happened. Sort of like a scientists notebook; don't confuse the notebook for the experiment, or the terms for their meaning. Even the labels Muslim, Christian and Jew are false. There is only one God and one truth, and we are all equal beneath both. Edit to add: Miracles are less important than the Truth, and even Jesus says that the Truth comes from God. (This supports your point, but changes the focus.) John 14: 23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. John 1 - Faith Hope Charity - 07-30-2009 Assalamu alaikum! Quote:Bismillah Thanks Muslimah! That's very nice of you. There aren't enough hours in a day to keep up with the various discussions on this forum, but if there's ever anything you need clarification on (from a genuine Catholic perspective), pease don't hesitate to contact me like you've done with this topic. Wishing you all the best for the upcoming Ramadan. Allah hafeez, Kathie :) John 1 - Faith Hope Charity - 07-30-2009 Assalamu alaikum! Quote:Welcome back Steve and FCH, glad to see you around once again. :D Thanks Wael! Always a pleasure to be here :) Quote:<b>FHC</b> Wael, do you understand the difference in the following statements: God is Jesus. Jesus is God. God is Father, Son & Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Son of God. ??? The latter one is theologically correct. Therefore, God (the Most Holy Trinity) did not die. Jesus, the Son of God, who is eternally Divine, became Man & died for us. I hope that settles it once & for all. Peace, Kathie :) John 1 - wel_mel_2 - 07-30-2009 Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum. <b>Steve.</b> Quote:The main topic, unspoken but clearly implied, is that Christianity is contradictory, and therefore faulty. But the truth cannot be contradictory, and Christianity is part of the truth. The "something went wrong in this gospel" is your interpretation based upon your own definitions. You amazed me by your conclusion. You remind me of Bernard Shaw who says: "“<b>No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means</b>” You are also trying to make me say what you mean, in the same manner how you guys deal with the Bible. I simply asked a question. Of course I know that Trinity is a contradictory, but this was not my intention when I asked the question. the question pop up in my mind when I reflected on verse 14 <i>'and the word became flesh</i>..." then I remembered Christians argument that it was the human Jesus <i>ONLY </i>who died on the Cross and not the divine, so how come now it says that the Word which is God (verses 1-3) became flesh and later died? That’s why I asked my question, I though there will be a ready answer rather than meaningless arguments. And yes, the 'something went wrong with the gospel' is my own conclusion to what I am reading in your Bible, I could be wrong, but I could also be right. Quote:You primary point was that the Trinity was contradictory, created by man in the 4th century, and Christians are confused to accept it. Christ clearly introduces the Spirit, which refutes your entire argument. As to what constitutes "death" and "life", they are both just an illusion. The universe is the same as it has always been. We cannot even explain our own consciousness, yet you expect to be able to explain that God died? I do not read what you claim at all. Trinity being invented in the 4th century is not a point, it is a historical fact. And if Christ clearly introduced the spirit, that doesn’t mean that they are both co-equal and co-eternal. And I do agree with you that we can't explain everything in the universe, but my salvation does not depend on anything unexplained in the universe. However, to be a Christian you have to accept this 'unexplainable' doctrine or else you will be doomed to hell, so I say such concept should be made crystal clear. Quote:As far as your point that the miracles come from God, that is a good point, but then, all things come from God, except evil. Should we set up a scientific lab to measure miracles? That is obviously an oxymoron, since every miracle is a failed scientific explanation. It was you who brought up Jesus' miracle to prove that he was not ordinary man, so I just show you that he was in fact a very ordinary man compared to others who did perform greater miracles that he did. I would suggest that we stick to one point at the time . Let us first solve the problem of John 1:14 Was John trying to say that God Himself died on the cross since the word which is God became flesh and later died? Let us focus on this point for now. Salam Wael John 1 - wel_mel_2 - 07-30-2009 Quote:Assalamu alaikum! Believe me FHC, I know what you are trying to say, but it seems that none of you got my point correctly. I don’t argue in my topic about who God is, I only asked who died on the Cross? Jesus the human or the Divine? If only the flesh part that dies, then how come the Word which is God died according to John 14? And if Jesus the divine, then how can he who is according to you<i> eternally Divine simply die</i>? Salam Wael John 1 - Steve Consilvio - 07-30-2009 Quote:I don’t argue in my topic about who God is, I only asked who died on the Cross? Jesus the human or the Divine? If only the flesh part that dies, then how come the Word which is God died according to John 14? And if Jesus the divine, then how can he who is according to you<i> eternally Divine simply die</i>? Perhaps the simplest answer is that God can do whatever he wants. He does not have to fulfill our expectations of logic. We know so little, and cannot even explain simple things like life, death, time, space or energy, which are around us in great abundance. As far as your claim that I will go to Hell, etc, if I do not accept a certain doctrine, that is a man-made doctrne to ensure conformity by those in power, or who would like power. The only opinion that matters is God's opinion. God regularly sends prophets to refresh the message, and get people back on the right track. Whether people listen or not is another matter. Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! |