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Who made the decision - SisterJennifer - 09-10-2009
I dont really see it that way Steve
I dont think people just blindly follow whatever they were brought up in, and this may explain why so many people, at least it seems here in the states, are disenchanted with religion in general. This is my own personal observation which may be different from yours.
I have yet to meet a Muslim who prays 5 times a day that I would classify as a blind follower. On the contrary, they are usually very concerned with trying to improve themselves.
Im not saying that blind followers dont exist in any religion, but I am saying that most likely they are not really practicing their faith in the first place. And I certainly would not classify them as the majority. I think the majority just are not interested.
Who made the decision - Steve Consilvio - 09-10-2009
It is far easier to adopt a conformist behavior than it is to adopt a non-conformist behavior. Thoreau said that 'the mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.' Was he describing himself, or what he saw in others?
Certainly, the more one prays, one would hope that the person would be more introspective as a result. But, there is no logical reason to suspect that any action leads to introspection. In general, it is only age and experience that unfolds the deeper mysteries of life, and age and experience must be combined with introspection.
A child, for example, is taught to pray, to love and follow the dominant groupthink of whatever culture he is born into. There is no knowledge, much less comparative analysis and self-exploration.
In effect, regardless of our origins, we all start off as 'blind followers,' and regardless of what the content is.
To 'improve ourselves' usually includes an attempt to improve others around us, too. We cannot escape the fact that we are a social community, and mutually obligated to one another. (Our brother's keeper). Praying is an action we do alone, or in a group, but its purpose is beyond the ritual. (The group can be separated from another group, just as an individual can be separated from other individuals). A road is not built so we can travel aimlessly, but to arrive at a destination. The means and the ends are related, but different, just like quantity and quality are related, but different.
To say, 'I travel' does not mean that the person understands where they are going. When we were born, we began traveling. Rituals (praying) are a respite; like a rest stop to fuel up, stretch, use the facilities, and get a bite to eat. On a highway, we all have a different destination. On the spiritual highway, we all have the same destination. My rituals may work for me, and your rituals may work for you, but the rituals themselves are unimportant. They are part of something greater, not the greater. As such, we cannot improve ourselves through rituals, but taking part in rituals may be a sign that we are improving ourselves.
If I read a book written in French, but do not know the French language, I can say 'I read the book' but I understood nothing. That is what blindness is. It doesn't matter if it is scripture, or human laws, etc., there is a huge difference between participating and understanding. That gap will never close. Everybody has to work through it individually. (Like people who vote, but have no idea of what the are voting for).
Who made the decision - Muslimah - 09-10-2009
Bismillah
Steve, I think you do understand the point but dont want to agree so.
What i m talking about is not a simple utterance of despair neither I m struggling. What i m talking about is the fundamental of belief on which u should base all your religious course and actions. It is all about who you should worship. And this is not what you have been calling as minor, or simple...etc. This is The Core of Interest here. Who should you worship. Allah alone who has full control, who makes unilateral decisions, who Manages the whole universe all by Himself and never feel Tired, (may Allah forgive me). Or God who is part of 3, yet one of the other parts seems helpless, not part of making decisions. Leave alone that Jesus himself was calling on Ili ili, in other words, he is calling on the one he himself worships. Is this minor? I dont think so.
About Jesus being an example, he certainly was, so was all the Prophets and Messengers. The story is rich, sure and certain is extremly rich. Much lessons, countless lessons are derived therein.
Quote:It was never not clear, for me. It is you who are struggling.
<b>But to hang all your interpretations on a simple utterance of despair is to miss the forest for the tree</b>. Do we not all despair? Do we not suffer the more, the more good we do? There are a great many things to learn from the Crucifixion, <b>yet you come away saying that Jesus was not the Son of God, which is the same claim as those who crucified Him.</b>
<b>That is not the company I would desire to be in, personally.</b>
Thank you for this
It is my opinion that ideas rule the world. I choose the ideas I believe carefully.
Who made the decision - Steve Consilvio - 10-08-2009
Perhaps the question you ask could be phrased differently: Why is Jesus the alpha and the omega? And secondarily, how does that correlate to God, as father?
Jesus was born as an animal in the barn, and then became the subject of a government inquiry. The powers of this world feared an infant, and wanted to kill him. That is pretty low station to begin. Yet, he also had the power of miracles, healing, and was even able to raise himself from the dead. That is a very high spot. Inbetween, he was stripped naked, paraded through the streets, mocked, jeered, spit upon, etc., before he was crucified. Again, a very lowly position. Yet, the last words out of his mouth were not dispair, they were forgiveness 'Forgive them, they know not what they do.'
(You are focusing n the despair, not the forgiveness, which is in line with your pessimist interpretation of all these events).
Of course, others have suffered, too. Nothing that happened to Jesus was unique. Man has brutaized one another for a very long time. What is unique are the extremes of his life. Can we agree that Jesus represents the alpha and omega?
As the alpha and omega, that puts him above all of humanity, while sharing all of the human elements of humanity. He suffered as we suffered; he loved and forgave far more than what we will ever need to forgive. We are all 'middlers.' We give out both good and evil, and receive both good and evil.
Is Jesus God? He is generally referred to as the Son of God. You object to the trinity; I think you know my position on that score. One could easily ask why Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Isaiah, Mohammad? Why aren't they God, too? Why are they saints and prophets, but not 'the Son of God?' The short answer is because scripture tells us so, but to me, the alpha and omega description fits Jesus, whereas it does not fit the others.
Why does scripture make Jesus so special? That is a tough question. Why does the world unfold the way it does? My theory is that in the afterlife God wants to be surrounded by those who have the capacity to love and forgive and to reason through questions of virtue and faith. Basically, he wants to be surrounded by people like himself. Our life is our test. Jesus is an example we can all aspire to, but Jesus does not say to pray to Jesus, he says to pray to God. (Our Father...)
Do some Christians err in making Jesus too special? Perhaps, but no more than others err in making him not special enough. He is a gateway, and his life serves as a reminder that whatever we are going through, we can handle it. Jesus has a purpose that is unique. He brings things together that were never brought together before. Don't forget, we have the benefit of 2000 years of hindsight, which nobody else enjoyed.
At the end of the day, our faith is what we individually make it. None of the labels (Christians, Muslim, etc) mean anything. God will not be checking our ID to see what clubs we belonged to, and how well we fulfilled the arbitrary rules of a particular group-think. The comparison will be made against Jesus: how much love and forgiveness and teaching of faith did we give out?
Just as people can give out hate and revenge, they can also teach against faith. We are middlers, and can be good one second and bad the next. We can state a truth and then a lie in the same paragraph. You need to discern it for yourself, just as I have to discern which is which for myself.
To answer your question, God made a unilateral decision to give us Jesus, just as he made a unilateral decision to give us all the prophets. God can create the universe, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus. He can make other Gods, too, I guess, just as we can make other people. But the issue, for me, is not as much to understand God's organizational chart, but to understand my role and my life. Whose example should I follow? Muhammad, Moses, Isaiah etc are all good examples, but Jesus is better. Jesus was a gift to us.
Do not be so concerned with the sins of others, be concerned about the others themselves. Sins are quickly made and quickly forgiven. It is not a sin to pray, even if praying to Jesus. Rather, make your own self right, and be an example. We will never escape being a middler, but we can always be better. Some find strenghth through Jesus, Abraham, Moses, Mohammad, Isaiah, Mary, etc., but all that strength still comes from God. I don't think anybody will deny that.
We all worship <i>with</i> one another, the living and the dead. You wrote <i>This is The Core of Interest here. Who should you worship.</i> Worship is a holy word, but ultimately means love. Whom should we love? Everybody, even our enemy. There is nobody whom we should not love, and worship through acts of kindness and forgiveness. Worshiping God is an extension of how we live. We do not worship God and ignore other things. All is one.
As I have said before, you are creating false divisions unnecessarily. Rather than seeing what makes things different, see what makes things the same. Both involve comparative analysis. I find the way you think very interesting, but it also troubles me. I suspect that you are missing some great joys of faith: the realization of how similar we all are, in our strengths and in our weaknesses.
Quote:"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
That is our finality. The ending of Jesus was the same as all of us, ...but it was not the end; only the end of our understanding.
Who made the decision - AlShamms - 10-27-2009
Good morning....
The question was asked: "Who made the decision of crucifying Jesus?"
According to the Bible, Jehovah God the Father, gave up his son Jesus as a sacrifice for those he chose to save.
John 3:16-17
(16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
(17) For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world be saved through Him.
Also, the point was raised that Jesus was suffering and asking why. The conclusion reached is that because Jesus had to ask why, He did not share in the decision of his crucifixion nor in the divine nature of his Father.
This very topic of divine nature is addressed here:
Philippians 2:5-8
(5) For let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
(6) who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
(7) but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Himself the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
(8) And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Jesus Christ while sharing in divine nature, took on human nature and died for the sins of those the Father chose to save.
Who made the decision - AlShamms - 10-27-2009
Cont....
The divine nature of Jesus Christ leads to the question: "Should Christians worship Jesus?"
According to the Bible, Jesus received worship from his followers and never spoke against them doing so.
Matthew 14:33
(33) And those in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, Truly You are the Son of God.
Matthew 28:9
(9) But as they were going to report to His disciples, behold, Jesus also met them, saying, Hail! And they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.
Jehovah also commanded the angels to worship Jesus:
Hebrews 1:6
(6) And again, when He brings in the First-born into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."
Jehovah the Father and Jesus the son are equally worshiped in Heaven:
Revelation 5:11-14
(11) And I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, and the living creatures and the elders. And the number of them was myriads and myriads, and thousands of thousands,
(12) saying with a great voice, Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.
(13) And I heard every creature which is in the Heaven and on the earth, and under the earth, and those that are in the sea, and all who are in them, saying, Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb forever and ever.
(14) And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped the One living forever and ever.
Who made the decision - Steve Consilvio - 10-27-2009
Quote:Also, the point was raised that Jesus was suffering and asking why. The conclusion reached is that because Jesus had to ask why, He did not share in the decision of his crucifixion nor in the divine nature of his Father.
But if God chose Jesus, and told us to worship him, that who are we to question his divine nature?
A King expects his prince to be treated the same as himself, and for everyone to carry out his wishes/commands.
You also seem to miss the point that we all share in this inheritance. In denying Jesus his inheritance, we also deny our own.
There are many ways to deny Jesus, just as there are many ways to distort his (God's) teachings. Is there a difference between accepting Jesus and distorting the message, or in accepting the message and distorting Jesus? In all things, we want to do the right things with the right reasoning.
The quote from 2 Corinthians 11:4 basically says the same thing. The truth is the narrow path, surrounded on both sides by an expanse of error. Like math, there are an infinite number of wrong answers, but only one correct one. 1+1=2.
Who made the decision - AlShamms - 10-27-2009
Steve, I'm not missing the point, I agree with you and was simply restating Muslimah's question before I answered it.
Who made the decision - Steve Consilvio - 10-27-2009
Quote:Steve, I'm not missing the point, I agree with you and was simply restating Muslimah's question before I answered it.
gotcha :-)
Who made the decision - Muslimah - 11-03-2009
Bismillah
As salam alykom
Steve, at the end of the day, be it calling for hope or despair, he called on a higher authority to either rescue out of despair or grant forgiveness out of hope. In both cases, he was not authorised to do it. Thus, he admits subordination to his Lord who Owns capacity to forgive and rescue. Your explanation made the point even clearer, Thank you so much.