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A Comparison - wel_mel_2 - 05-21-2007
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
Quote:My aim is never to "prove you wrong". Consider yourself lucky. I'm doing you a favour by offering my version of Christianity. May those in the darkness see the light
May those in the darkness see the light, Ameen. You know what? my ex catholic friends consider me lucky too. Alhamdulelah. :)
Quote:Then have a think about Jesus' actions. He communicates His Divinity in many profound ways...
When He walked on water, He showed He has authority over nature.
When He cast out demons, He showed He has authority over evil.
When He healed on the Sabbath, He showed He has authority over the Law.
When He brought Lazareth & Jarius' daughter back to life, He showed He has authority over death.
I’ve already said <b>many times </b> that not only Jesus who has authority over the nature, not only him who cast out devils, not only him who healed the sick, not only him who raised the dead etc etc etc… <b>miracles are not the proof that he is God. </b>
Quote:That wouldn't be humility, it'll be stupidity!
Clearly, you don’t understand my English, I said. Why can’t you be humble enough to say that <b>‘NO there isn’t any verse where Jesus himself declared that he is the creator of this universe’?</b> he never said it FHC, <b>Jesus never said it</b>. what stupidity are you talking about?
Quote:Christ created a New Covenant. He created the Church. He created the Sacraments. He created the New Temple. He created eternal life. He created Apostles. He created children of God. He created the New Jerusalem.
When my cousin told me she's pregnant the first thing we all yelled was, "thank you Jesus!"... in other words, "thank you God for creating this baby."
I could go on forever!!!
Jesus Christ is God. He's the principle of Creation & Redemption. Alleluia!
You are not making any sense FHC, even if you will go on forever!!!, you reminded me of the well known boxer, <i>Muhammad Ali Clay</i>, who used to say “<b>I am the greatest</b>” and he kept saying that even when he looses, but many people did not agree on his <b>personal view</b>. You are just chanting slogans that have nothing to do with reality.
In John 20:17 we read:
"Jesus saith unto her, ...I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; <b>and to my God, and your God</b>
."
Not only is God Jesus' father, <b>but He is also his GOD</b>. and if he has a God, <b>then he can never be God. </b>
Quote:We don't believe in Jesus' Divinity solely based on the miracles He performed. Many others have performed miracles. The difference is Jesus performed them of His own Divine Will.
And that’s why he used to pray to <b>HIS GOD </b> asking HIM for help before performing such miracles. sounds like he is doing all the works out of his own ‘<i>divine will’</i>, seems like he never said that <i>I CAN OF MY OWN SELF DO NOTHING</i>, this statement prove that he is using his <i>OWN DIVINE WILL </i> to perform miracles, seems like he never said "<i>I with the finger of God cast out devils</i>", no no he do it on his own.
Salam
Wael.
A Comparison - Muslimah - 05-21-2007
Bismillah
as salam alykom
You know what Wael, when she made this reply:
Christ created a New Covenant. He created the Church. He created the Sacraments. He created the New Temple. He created eternal life. He created Apostles. He created children of God. He created the New Jerusalem.
When my cousin told me she's pregnant the first thing we all yelled was, "thank you Jesus!"... in other words, "thank you God for creating this baby."
I could go on forever!!!
Jesus Christ is God. He's the principle of Creation & Redemption. Alleluia!
I prefered to stop, because the aim is not to prove a point or win a debate, but I will leave it to other readers who can gauge this and certainly see what u and I can see.....Alhamdulelah.
A Comparison - Faith Hope Charity - 05-26-2007
Glory to God, peace on earth, good will to all!
Quote:May those in the darkness see the light, Ameen. You know what? my ex catholic friends consider me lucky too. Alhamdulelah. :)
Wael, I love you just the way you are. I couldn't love you more even if you were Catholic. Alhamdulilah. Don't ever change!
Quote:
I’ve already said <b>many times </b> that not only Jesus who has authority over the nature, not only him who cast out devils, not only him who healed the sick, not only him who raised the dead etc etc etc… <b>miracles are not the proof that he is God. </b>
Only God has complete authority over nature.
I guess the difference is that I believe Jesus performed miracles by His own accord (He's a Divine Person), whereas you don't.
Quote:
Clearly, you don’t understand my English, I said. Why can’t you be humble enough to say that <b>‘NO there isn’t any verse where Jesus himself declared that he is the creator of this universe’?</b> he never said it FHC, <b>Jesus never said it</b>. what stupidity are you talking about?
Wael, as much as I love you, I'm one step away from adding you to my "Ignore List". I can't keep explaining the same concept over & over to a grown man with the mentality of a 5 year old.
Please stop approaching the Holy Bible in the same way as you approach the Holy Quran. They each possess a unique style. We receive messages from God in completely different ways.
Did Jesus imply that He existed before Creation? Yes! But you kindly asked me not to mention that particular verse so I'm guessing you already know the answer but don't want to face up to it.
Quote:
You are not making any sense FHC, even if you will go on forever!!!, you reminded me of the well known boxer, <i>Muhammad Ali Clay</i>, who used to say “<b>I am the greatest</b>” and he kept saying that even when he looses, but many people did not agree on his <b>personal view</b>. You are just chanting slogans that have nothing to do with reality.
Mohammad Ali is the greatest - hehe! I have so much respect for that man!
Quote:In John 20:17 we read:
"Jesus saith unto her, ...I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; <b>and to my God, and your God</b>
."
Not only is God Jesus' father, <b>but He is also his GOD</b>. and if he has a God, <b>then he can never be God. </b>
And that’s why he used to pray to <b>HIS GOD </b> asking HIM for help before performing such miracles. sounds like he is doing all the works out of his own ‘<i>divine will’</i>, seems like he never said that <i>I CAN OF MY OWN SELF DO NOTHING</i>, this statement prove that he is using his <i>OWN DIVINE WILL </i> to perform miracles, seems like he never said "<i>I with the finger of God cast out devils</i>", no no he do it on his own.
:sleep2: You keep repeating yourself. It's obviously not for my benefit or for yours. Why do you do it? You & I have discussed all the above previously. If the new members are curious about these verses then they can ask me themselves. You know in which threads you can find the answers.
Until next time, take care & God bless.
A Comparison - Faith Hope Charity - 05-26-2007
Glory to the Word made Flesh!
May the Peace of Christ be with you!
Quote:I prefered to stop, because the aim is not to prove a point or win a debate, but I will leave it to other readers who can gauge this and certainly see what u and I can see.....Alhamdulelah.
Okay Muslimah. Sounds good. But I'm happy to carry on if you are (or anybody else).
For the Christians who are following this discussion & wondering why I didn't just point to St John's Gospel, chapter 9 (Jesus spitting on the ground & making clay to heal the blind man), it's because I felt as though that particular event did minimal justice to Our Lord. I'm sure ya'll can understand where I'm coming from ;)
Take care & God bless.
A Comparison - wel_mel_2 - 05-28-2007
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
Quote:Only God has complete authority over nature.
True, only God… and so all these miracles that you are talking about (whether performed by Jesus or other men of God) were not their own works as it was very well explained in Acts 2:22
"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, <b>which God did by him </b> in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know"
Quote:I guess the difference is that I believe Jesus performed miracles by His own accord (He's a Divine Person), whereas you don't.
I respect your beliefs, but I don’t see it related whatsoever to the biblical teaching, as you can see acts 2:22 clearly states that Jesus did nothing of these miracles; it was God’s miracles performed through Jesus pbuh.
Quote:Wael, as much as I love you, I'm one step away from adding you to my "Ignore List".
Was this attitude adopted from the Biblical Jesus? because in this case I will have no problem if you ignore me.
Quote:I can't keep explaining the same concept over & over to a grown man with the mentality of a 5 year old.
Thanks for this attitude as well.
Quote:Did Jesus imply that He existed before Creation? Yes! But you kindly asked me not to mention that particular verse so I'm guessing you already know the answer but don't want to face up to it.
Please be patient with me FHC, and I would like from all members on these forums to please try to explain to me the followings:
Does the phrase “<i>Before Abraham was I am</i>” mean “<i>I am (Jesus) existed before the Creation</i>”?
To other members who are not so familiar with the Bible, please try to read about Solomon in (Proverbs 8:22-31) and Melchizedec (Hebrews 7:3), who were supposedly present not only before Abraham, but also before all of creation? What about the many others who were either anointed, consecrated or made holy, before their births? What makes them so different?
Quote:You keep repeating yourself. It's obviously not for my benefit or for yours. Why do you do it? You & I have discussed all the above previously.
Aren’t you repeating yourself by saying that Jesus is God without any certain proofs? You can say that I believe he is God and that’s it, but don’t convince me that this concept has anything to do with the Bible.
Salam
Wael.
A Comparison - Faith Hope Charity - 06-07-2007
Glory to God, peace on earth, goodwill to all.
Assalamu alaikum, Wael! I hope you're doing well, mate :)
Quote:True, only God… and so all these miracles that you are talking about (whether performed by Jesus or other men of God) were not their own works as it was very well explained in Acts 2:22
"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know..."
(Catholic translation)
I respect your beliefs, but I don’t see it related whatsoever to the biblical teaching, as you can see acts 2:22 clearly states that Jesus did nothing of these miracles; it was God’s miracles performed through Jesus pbuh.
When you say "God" I take it you're referring to the Most Holy Trinity (Father Son Holy Spirit). If so, then I agree with you. Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God Incarnate. He possesses two natures, remember??? When Jesus performed "mighty works & wonders & signs" He did so in His Humanity (as the promised Messiah), through Divine Power (which His Divine Nature shares in). The miracles not only reveal that Jesus is sent by God, but that He is the eternal Son of the Father. If you read on in that chapter it'll become clearer :)
Quote:Was this attitude adopted from the Biblical Jesus? because in this case I will have no problem if you ignore me.
Haha! Nah, it's the attitude of a Uni student who is up to her neck in assessments & ought to make use her precious time wisely ;)
Quote:Thanks for this attitude as well.
No worries, bro! You've earned it :P As we're about to see...
Quote:To other members who are not so familiar with the Bible, please try to read about Solomon in (Proverbs 8:22-31) and Melchizedec (Hebrews 7:3), who were supposedly present not only before Abraham, but also before all of creation? What about the many others who were either anointed, consecrated or made holy, before their births? What makes them so different?
This is exactly why I tease you about acting childish, Wael. Like a kid, you need to be told everything more than once. You asked about these exact verses months ago (word for word mind you... it's obvious you're just cutting & pasting from somewhere). My answer is still the same as it was before.
http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=4042&st=20 (# 39 + 40)
Quote:Aren’t you repeating yourself by saying that Jesus is God without any certain proofs? You can say that I believe he is God and that’s it, but don’t convince me that this concept has anything to do with the Bible.
Fine! It's settled.
I believe Jesus is God... & that's it!
End of story!!!
I gotta get back to my uni work now :(
May Allah bless you always.
A Comparison - wel_mel_2 - 06-08-2007
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
Quote:I believe Jesus is God... & that's it!
Yes, that’s right, <b>YOU </b> believe, and I do respect your beliefs.
Salam
Wael.