Quote:............. isn't rather unlikely that both the Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament are wrong using Eli, a Hebrew word, rather than Allah, an arab word?[/quote:aa491edfc4]Since Jesus was an Aramic speaker, the word he would have used to say God is ALLAH. And that is the word he did use. Hebrew speakers recorded it as Eli, and English speakers record it as God. It all means the same thing.

I don't know where you heard this argument. And you never did answer my question................

Quote:You mean that Jesus was sent to rescue mankind from their sins, fine, does that apply on the people who lived during that era, does the effect extend until now? If it does extend, what happens when people kill, fornicate, steal or whatever? And here I mean just Christians of course. Will they still be forgiven due to the crucifixion of Jesus? [/quote:3e5be149e6]not because a person is Christian doesn't mean he/she's save. most people around me are Christian(or catholic) by infant baptism, but most of them never bothered to study their religion or even had a second thought on whether God exists or not.

real christians are those who have accepted Jesus' gift of salvation and rest assured, those who are saved wouldn't do the things you mentioned above. if they did, their consciense will be bugging them, buy they're forgiven nonetheless. that's how merciful God is.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> So having a child will make this God have a part of the human characteristic including paternal emotions and others. This certainly demeans the Divine image I think. [/quote:3e5be149e6]i don't quite understand what you mean, but i'll state my point.

Jesus, with the Holy Ghost coexisted with the Father from the beginning. they are 3, but still one. God didn't do the usual process of childmaking, because He doesn't need to. His Son was there with Him all along.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Why did he have to go through full human kind birth? I mean why he started as an embryo, regardless of course of the duration of pregnancy of Mariam, and then came to the world through normal birth. Don’t you agree with me that God could have just sent him as a grown up man? I think this would have been more adequate as a son of God. It would have been also more effective for people.[/quote:3e5be149e6]the Son humbled Himself to become Man(but still God. nothing's impossible with the Godhead :wink:). on His life on earth, He lived like we did. He work with human hands, loved with human heart and was even tempted the way we do today. since He's every part human(but still God), then it's natural for Him to be born like a Man too.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Another significant point as well is that Christians (as Jews do not believe in either Mohamed SAW or Issa peace be upon him) do not believe in Prophet Mohamed (prayer and peace be upon him). Under their belief I understand their situation. Since if God sacrificed His own son (while may Allah forgive me He is not obliged of course to sacrifice anything to have His own servants believe in Him) so it is only useless to send any more messengers. [/quote:3e5be149e6]messengers?

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Do you think that the Lord would love His servants more than the son? [/quote:3e5be149e6]i don't think just because the Father sacrificed His begotten Son doesn't mean He loves the servants more than the Son. i don't see it that way so naturally, i can't answer your question.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Will he accept to be defeated by his servants when they killed his own son? [/quote:3e5be149e6]yeah. that's how great and humble God is. He created us yet He begs to His own creation to accept Him. sad isn't it? (imho, i don't think He's defeated)

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>How come he was incapable of defending and rescuing his son? [/quote:3e5be149e6][b:3e5be149e6]He[/b:3e5be149e6] was capable. but Jesus' suffering and death(and resurrection) is part of the plan of Salvation. if Jesus didn't suffer and die, then our penalty wasn't paid. we'd still face eternal death when we die.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>...........................................

angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Read the contents of the above-mentioned link carefully, I'm sure you did before.

Now the Catholic sect believes in Jesus as the son of God while the Orthodox and Protestant churches perceive him as God himself.

Ok in both cases how come his genealogy is traced through human beings all the way. Only until the end when they explain that Virgin Mary was pregnant with him through holy spirit. So if this was the case why do they ascribe him to Abraham at the beginning until after fourteen and fourteen more generations to Joseph? The husband of Virgin Mary. They still call her virgin Mary, although according to the same page, they say she did not come to union with Joseph after marriage until she gave birth, which means that she did afterwards. [/quote:3e5be149e6]

i don't believe in the Virgin Mary.(though I believe in Mary) i believe she gave a Virgin birth, but she had James after that and some other female daughters. so she didn't remain virgin.

regarding the lineage, it's natural to link Jesus to His forefathers because He's after all, human. He's like us in everything(generally speaking). humans have ancestors, so does He. He's called "Son of Man" and "Son of David", He considers John His cousin, James His brother etc.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>We may add that assuming Jesus (prayer and peace be upon him) was either God or son of God, ok when he was put on the cross and until he went out of his grave, who managed the universe?. Who was in charge at that time span? [/quote:3e5be149e6]the Father and the Holy Ghost [i:3e5be149e6]is[/i:3e5be149e6] still there.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>What puzzles me as well is that in all cases the sacrifice went in vain. Assuming that he sacrificed himself or his only son to expiate people's sins and have them believe in him. Yet there remained people who did not, us Muslims and Jews. So a God must have had a better way to show us the road. A stronger way. [/quote:3e5be149e6]if the [b:3e5be149e6]Jews[/b:3e5be149e6] accepted Jesus, then I'll not. one Messianic prophecy is that Jesus would be rejected by His own people. that happened didn't it? but i know by the end of days, many of them will eventually be rescued.

if you say [i:3e5be149e6]stronger[/i:3e5be149e6] way, for me it's strong enough. it's the people's biased and unbelieving heart that keeps them from believing in Him.

i also have no answer for your question because i'm definitely not God. it's like asking someone "why did you kiss your sister's boyfriend?" only the person who did the act is in liberty to answer. no one should answer for her.

there are many christian sites out there, please visit them. it'll be a good start. i see some of you quoting the old testament, so i suppose you believe in them. if that's the case, then you can also see that the Father had been planning to send His Son for us. two Torah believing religions(christianity and judaism) believes that God planned to send a Messiah, i think it's only islam that doesn't hold that view.

i know it's hard to convert to a religion you've grown and defended all your life. i mean, i can't imagine myself being a hindu or such. but if you approach Christianity with an unbiased mind and heart(unlike the atheists), you'll see how much it makes sense.

like what whisper mentioned, you said that Jesus said "Allah Allah lama sabachthani." that's based on the new testament, so i assume you believe in it. Jesus mentioned too that "The Father and I are one." so it's easy for you to believe it too.

Quote:You mean that Jesus was sent to rescue mankind from their sins, fine, does that apply on the people who lived during that era, does the effect extend until now? If it does extend, what happens when people kill, fornicate, steal or whatever? And here I mean just Christians of course. Will they still be forgiven due to the crucifixion of Jesus?[/quote:acd83936e0]What about the people before him??

Are they all will NOT be forgiven cause they did NOT live to see Jesus.

You guys don't make any sense and there no logic in your beliefs.

Believing that Adam is your God would have made much better sense since he is the 1st ever human.

Talking about tight spots, I think you are the ones that are in it really.[/color:acd83936e0]

Quote:the Father and the Holy Ghost is still there.[/quote:136808765c]i just scanned through your post, sorry but i dont have alot of time to read, maybe later. i think answering the quote above would answer about everything.

the holy ghost, father and son are one being as you claim. yet you also claim the son to have died. so now, that one being is missing a part, no? if the holy ghost, father and son are one, then the holy ghost and the father ONLY are what? 0.59? :mrgreen:

dont mean to be insulting, but its either i'm drunk and i dont even know it, or someone else was drunk while writting some very famous book....

Quote:there are many christian sites out there, please visit them. it'll be a good start. i see some of you quoting the old testament, so i suppose you believe in them. if that's the case, then you can also see that the Father had been planning to send His Son for us. two Torah believing religions(christianity and judaism) believes that God planned to send a Messiah, i think it's only islam that doesn't hold that view.

i know it's hard to convert to a religion you've grown and defended all your life. i mean, i can't imagine myself being a hindu or such. but if you approach Christianity with an unbiased mind and heart(unlike the atheists), you'll see how much it makes sense.

like what whisper mentioned, you said that Jesus said "Allah Allah lama sabachthani." that's based on the new testament, so i assume you believe in it. Jesus mentioned too that "The Father and I are one." so it's easy for you to believe it too.[/quote:d7d752cf9c]

It's very nice that you are so eager about your religion. But I think before you go around telling a group of people that they are wrong, it might be benificial to know whom you are speaking with first. And be willing to listen to opposing opinions with consideration. I'm speaking generally, I am not accusing you of anything.

I tend to think of Judiasm, Christianity, (which seems forever changing :?), and Islam as something like a staircase. You start at the beginning and stop at the end. But how would you know that if you never read the end? You only know the first two 'Chapters.'

You might want to read the Quran (there are many good English translations) and reflect on it, before attempting to call their people to your faith.

Maybe the point you were trying to make about approaching religion with an open mind is actually good advice to yourself as well.

Just something to think about.

Quote:What about the people before him??[/quote:2235553269]those people who believe in God before Christ will be the guests in the wedding of Jesus and the Church. (meaning, straight to heaven) i think those who didn't hear about God but had a good heart has a possibility to enter heaven.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Believing that Adam is your God would have made much better sense since he is the 1st ever human.[/quote:2235553269]bingo. Jesus is also called the [b:2235553269]Last Adam.[/b:2235553269]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>the holy ghost, father and son are one being as you claim. yet you also claim the son to have died.[/quote:2235553269]Jesus resurrected 3 days later. He wasn't dead(as a Man) forever.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>so now, that one being is missing a part, no? if the holy ghost, father and son are one, then the holy ghost and the father ONLY are what? 0.59? [/quote:2235553269]:mrgreen: lol. but seriously, their still one. the Son, though He died for 3 days, never ceased on existing. He still has His soul. even if their in different places, they're still one. don't ask me how they managed. God has powers far beyond our imagination.

just like now, the Holy Spirit is in every real believer yet the tri-unity is still there.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Maybe the point you were trying to make about approaching religion with an open mind is actually good advice to yourself as well.[/quote:2235553269]i'm doing just that and that. i've approached atheism, hinduism and even wicca.(and now, this.)

i had a chat with my newly muslim convert last night, he said muslims believe in the Torah. i asked if the whole of it, he said "just some."

(some goes on like this)

me: how do you know what parts to believe?

him: logic and reasoning

me: and you know very well that human logic and reasoning is flawed, right?

him: yes

me: are you aware of the Messianic Prophecies?

him: yes, i am.

him: and Jesus is the Messiah or Messenger of God

considering your fellow muslim was right, how did you know what you consider "logical"(in the Bible) is right and wrong?

and if Muslims believe that Jesus is the Messiah, why do you think would Allah save Jesus from suffering, when it's the main ingredient for Salvation? if He didn't suffer(and die) then He wasn't able to save us. therefore He isn't the Messiah.

so He isn't the Messiah. well, if you're aware of the Torah(or Old Testament), there are [b:2235553269]hundreds[/b:2235553269] of Messianic prophecies in there. all were fulfilled by Jesus. so if He's the Messiah, then He suffered and died for us which means He was the one who was crucified, not some other person.

note: i just based my conclusions with the answer of my muslim friend. correct me(so i can correct him) if i happen to be wrong. thanks.

i have few questions, please answer it.

1. you said it wasn't Jesus who was crucified but another person, where did you get this? quran?

2. did the person who was crucified, look like Jesus?

3. what happened to the body of the Jesus-look alike when he died?