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Is Lying Wrong or Not? - ronniv93 - 02-25-2005
I thought that lying was wrong... period. Our God is not a liar, in His nature, so why should or would it be okay for people to lie?
God IS truth, thus to lie is to be opposite of what God is.
But I found out that Islam Ok's lying in certain circumstances and, because of the way Islam is, it could be reasoned that lying extends BEYOND these "certain circumstances."
So, my questions are:
1) How do you justify lying in your own mind, since your religion allows for it?
and
2) How can someone such as myself, a non-Muslim, really trust what Muslims say when it is permitted for them to lie to me? How can I ever be sure that the so-called "Muslim scholars" are being truthful, when they are allowed by Islam to lie?
<i>Just one example: Living Islam</i>
Is Lying Wrong or Not? - Kareem_Rasheed - 02-26-2005
Quote:I thought that lying was wrong... period. Our God is not a liar, in His nature, so why should or would it be okay for people to lie?
God IS truth, thus to lie is to be opposite of what God is.
But I found out that Islam Ok's lying in certain circumstances and, because of the way Islam is, it could be reasoned that lying extends BEYOND these "certain circumstances."
So, my questions are:
1) How do you justify lying in your own mind, since your religion allows for it?
and
2) How can someone such as myself, a non-Muslim, really trust what Muslims say when it is permitted for them to lie to me? How can I ever be sure that the so-called "Muslim scholars" are being truthful, when they are allowed by Islam to lie?
<i>Just one example: Living Islam</i>
<a></a>17231[/snapback]
As a New Muslim I cannot give you the answer you are asking.It appaers to me though that in instances where the lie or as we say in America a little white lie that would spare harm from lets say your kids or family or as long as it brings harmony and not division or worse, that sin would be forgivin by Allah(swt) just because it shows mercy upon them.But a Lie that would bring harm or worse would be a bigger sin.This is my understanding and if I am wrong then may Allah(swt) forgive me and lead me to the correct understanding.
Take into account for example that In the Bible it says God forbids lying,but many Christians lie to their kids every year when they tell them thats theres a Santa or Easter Bunny.Are they going to hell because they told this little white lie.I believe God(swt) would not be so cruel to His subjects when that lie did no severe harm to any one.Allah(swt) is Most Forgiving,Most Gracious than that.I believe if the lie is small and it will bring happiness and shows mercy then God(swt) is mercyful enough to forgive it right then and there,but if it brings harm and hurt and is done out of spite,hate or to bring wrongful intentions then He would not forgive it until we repented of it.
Also the writers of the Scriptures claim that God(swt) said never to lie,yet also claimed He lied when He said to Adam "The day you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you will die".Adam did not die that same day.So the writers lied,for Allah(swt)God never lies.
The writers of the scriptures claim God(swt) lies,Because it claims He told the Israelites that David's throne would never lack a king(from his lineage) to sit on it,Yet there hasn't been a king on the throne of David since before Jesus'(pbuh) time.Herod was a Roman puppet and not a true king of the lineage of David.(yet we are expected to believe that God(swt) forbids all forms of lying,yet He can;God(swt)..Does not sin.)
So either you believe God(swt) lies,which He doesn't or the writers of the scriptures lied.Which makes more since to believe in a God that doesn't lie but allows some lies to be over looked or to believe in a God that does lie yet forbids his subjects to lie even if that lie may be of some help at the time?
Why believe in a god that would punish you to hell fire for saving a loved one or sparing that loved one from much pain by telling a small lie?
Millions of Christians lie all the time about Santa and the Easter bunny and other things,They(Ministers) lie to the very congregations they preach to every sunday when they dont explain it to them that God(swt) or the NT never sanctioned christmas,easter(the early church kept Passover,Easter was introduced by the Catholic church) and sunday(The early church kept Saturday,Sunday was introduced by the Catholics),if they will accept lies and preach it to the very people they represent then why trust them?Are we suppose to trust them?Can they be trusted?Also some lie when they dont make it plain that God(swt) doesnt condone hate and racism(Ever been to a southern Baptist Church,they dont allow blacks).But I think over all Christians(the religious ones) are good people and can be trusted,so in answer to your post sure you can trust Muslims(the religious ones),As for all Muslims yeah probably just as much as you can those who claim to be Christian.My wife is southern Baptist but she is a trustworthy person.
But you cant say that you cant trust all Muslims because some may tell small white lies or believe its okay at times,because Christians do the same thing.
Peace!
Is Lying Wrong or Not? - ronniv93 - 02-26-2005
Quote: It appaers to me though that in instances where the lie or as we say in America a little white lie that would spare harm from lets say your kids or family or as long as it brings harmony and not division or worse, that sin would be forgivin by Allah(swt) just because it shows mercy upon them.
Oh, okay. So, then based upon the circumstances, each individual Muslim could make the determination of whether or not to lie to others using their own personal reasoning. So a husband may not really be able to trust his wife and vice versa, because their spouse could lie to them if it means a more "peaceful" household?? Wow!
You also seem to be saying, with this example, that a sin is actually good. How can THAT be?
Quote: But a Lie that would bring harm or worse would be a bigger sin.
How would you know until it's over with and the harm has been done? It's too late at that point.
Quote:Take into account for example that In the Bible it says God forbids lying,but many Christians lie to their kids every year when they tell them thats theres a Santa or Easter Bunny.
First, if you truly were Christian before, then you would know that neither of these are Biblical, so you can't blame Christianity for this; blame the individuals.
And I will NEVER EVER tell my children about Santa and some goofy Bunny. That always confused me early on in my life... I couldn't figure out the correlation between Santa and Jesus at Christmas time; I thought it was about Jesus and His miraculous birth, but I kept hearing about Santa Claus. Then the story of Santa never made sense, so I never believed in it past the age of 5. I <b>Thank God</b> that my parents never instilled this LIE into me and I will not do that to my children.
Quote: Are they going to hell because they told this little white lie.
Well, again, if you were a Christian, you know that Christians do not go to hell for a single sin. But I do think that they will have to give an account before God for this and explain why they continued these lies (<i>not that there's an acceptable answer that they could give</i>).
Quote: I believe God(swt) would not be so cruel to His subjects when that lie did no severe harm to any one.
This certainly cannot be the judge of what's right and wrong. If that is the case, then Muslims shouldn't have a problem drinking so long as they do it in the comfort and privacy of their own homes. I mean, they're not hurting anyone, right? Thus, it's okay.
Quote: I believe if the lie is small and it will bring happiness and shows mercy then God(swt) is mercyful enough to forgive it right then and there,
This puts mere man in charge of determining the degree of the sin when only God can be.
Quote: Also the writers of the Scriptures claim that God(swt) said never to lie,yet also claimed He lied when He said to Adam "The day you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you will die".Adam did not die that same day.So the writers lied,for Allah(swt)God never lies.
Says who? What writers of the Bible say that God lied? Are you sure it's not you saying that, not the writer? It is perhaps your understanding of the word "die" that you don't understand.
Quote: The writers of the scriptures claim God(swt) lies
You are again putting words into their mouths.
Quote: Because it claims He told the Israelites that David's throne would never lack a king (from his lineage) to sit on it,Yet there hasn't been a king on the throne of David since before Jesus'(pbuh) time.
Can you bring me the relevant Bible verses?
Quote:So either you believe God(swt) lies,which He doesn't or the writers of the scriptures lied.
Or, a third option is simply that you fail to understand the Scriptures which is more reasonable to believe.
Is Lying Wrong or Not? - ronniv93 - 02-26-2005
Quote:Which makes more since to believe in a God that doesn't lie but allows some lies to be over looked or to believe in a God that does lie yet forbids his subjects to lie even if that lie may be of some help at the time?
Neither one. The first option, though, is true apparently of your Lord. But what you say of the Bible is NOT true, so it's not even an option to consider.
Quote: They(Ministers) lie to the very congregations they preach to every sunday when they dont explain it to them that God(swt) or the NT never sanctioned christmas,easter(the early church kept Passover,Easter was introduced by the Catholic church) and sunday(The early church kept Saturday,Sunday was introduced by the Catholics),
Are you SERIOUS!!!! OMG. I feel sorry for you and whatever "minister" you grew up under.
Quote: Also some lie when they dont make it plain that God(swt) doesnt condone hate and racism(Ever been to a southern Baptist Church,they dont allow blacks).
I am once again laughing. This claim is ridiculous.
Quote: so in answer to your post sure you can trust Muslims(the religious ones),
I disagree. Because it seems that the truly religious Muslim is the very one who WILL lie to me, because it is ok'd by Islamic teachings. They may conclude in their own minds that if lying to me about what Islam truly teaches or lying about the Bible means I convert to Muslim, then the benefit outweighs the sin.
I cannot trust such a person; they've done nothing to warrant my trust.
Quote: But you cant say that you cant trust all Muslims because some may tell small white lies or believe its okay at times,because Christians do the same thing.
I don't trust anyone who tries to justify lying and say that it's okay to do whether Muslim or Christian. And I wasn't trying to say that all Muslims lie. But I've seen many of the more prominent or well-known Muslims do that. And if they're supposed to be the one's who can answer REAL questions about Islam, then that's scary.
Is Lying Wrong or Not? - Muslimah - 02-27-2005
Bismillah
ronniv
"<b>because of the way Islam is"
</b>
I didnt really look thru kareem's replies, I am here as admin to give u 2nd warning, that we dont allow this type of talking about Islam on the board.
We are talking to u in a very respectful manner, regardless of the reasons u r here for whether trying to feel ok about your religion or not. With our 100% certainity about Islam (just exactly as u r by now, since your attitude shows and proves as the more one is certain that he/she is on the wrong the more they grow aggressive) which we dont need to prove to u, we are only replying to your questions as they pop. Although u seem to be really loosing control and getting confused and threatened. But this will not justify this style of talking. No one is forcing u to embrace Islam, u just carry on being the same u r, and no one will loose at the Day After but u.
Last time I gave u a warning, this is 2nd, next I will suspend your account. Hope this is clear.
If u wish to continue on this board and ask as much as u want we have no problem but it has to be within our rules. Take your pick.
admin
Is Lying Wrong or Not? - ronniv93 - 02-27-2005
Why am I being issued a "2nd warning"? What exactly was wrong with my statement?
When I said, "Because of the way Islam is," I was referring to the fact that Islam acknowledges that not every single, possible circumstance of life has been covered by the Quran or Sunnah, that there is room for <b>reasoning</b>. I forget the Arabic term for this, but basically it leaves some matters up to the best judgment of the Islamic scholars BASED UPON the Quran and Hadith to make a ruling on modern-day situations that arise.
So, what is so wrong about that?
*******
One other thing, as I have been saying to some of you before.... if it makes you feel better to think that I feel threatened or confused..... that I feel some sort of "tugging at my heart" from Islam and thus I get defensive, well then more power to you. If it makes you feel better to believe an untruth, then I can do nothing about that.
But rest assured that I do not feel threatened <b>in the least little bit</b>.
I get emotional about certain issues such as Jesus supposedly not really dying on the cross, yet all the disciples AND JESUS' OWN MOTHER believed this to be true. But that does not suggest that I am somehow becoming uncomfortable with my own faith.
I'm not sure how many times I have to keep repeating that....
Is Lying Wrong or Not? - Muslimah - 02-27-2005
Bismillah
Peace
(I was referring to the fact that Islam acknowledges that not every single, possible circumstance of life has been covered by the Quran or Sunnah, that there is room for reasoning. I forget the Arabic term for this, but basically it leaves some matters up to the best judgment of the Islamic scholars BASED UPON the Quran and Hadith to make a ruling on modern-day situations that arise)
This whole statement is wrong, and we are not going to go thru explaining this to u.
Again u still have the 2nd warning.
Is Lying Wrong or Not? - Deen - 02-27-2005
Quote:I thought that lying was wrong... period. Our God is not a liar, in His nature, so why should or would it be okay for people to lie?
What is God's nature?? Does god have "nature"?
Humans are created with fitrah (nature) as it is part of creation and god is not created! Nature for humans are the organic needs and instincts which have been put in place all creatures by Allah SWT. Therefore nature is specific to human beings as we can comprehend that within the creation.
Man is unable to physically comprehend god, as the limited is unable to comprehend the unlimited!!!
Therefore, as part of our "nature" does god have organic needs and instincts? Does god need food, air, water etc. to survive? Does god get happy or upset (starts crying or laughing) like humans do? Does god have urges like men do? Does he feel scared like humans?
The reason for these questions is that the attributes of man and god are not the same.
To lie or speak the truth is a human attribute and God is not a human so to even question god about truth or lieing shows how much of an incorrect understanding people have. The fact that Allah SWT has ordered us to use our rational thought process to come to the conclusion he exists and the quran is revelation i.e. the truth which conforms with reality and has comprehensively/decisively been assented to, we realise that this is from Allah SWT.
The problem with people of other religions is that they portray god in human form and therefore think god has human attributes which is irrational and incorrect!
17:43
...but He is Allah, the One, the Self- Sufficient Master, whom all creatures need. He
begets not, nor was He begotten, and there is none comparable or coequal unto Him).
But I found out that Islam Ok's lying in certain circumstances and, because of the way Islam is, it could be reasoned that lying extends BEYOND these "certain circumstances."
Maybe you could give us examples from the Islamic texts to prove your point as the link does not provide with any examples. It only provides us with the views of an individual (who is not evidence), evidence is quran and sunnah!
Is Lying Wrong or Not? - ronniv93 - 03-01-2005
Deen, that whole concept is thoroughly confusing. What does human nature or man's nature have to do with the understanding of God's nature. Either God can lie or He can't. I don't think this is a matter AT ALL of comparing Him with His creation.
Are you suggesting that human beings understand a concept that God does not understand?? You make it seem as though God is basically completely unknowable. Because any words that we could use to describe or understand Him would be based upon our own human nature and thus invalid when it comes to God. So, the description of God being "merciful" is completely useless, then, in terms of describing God. Because mercy is something that is a human quality, thus doesn't apply to God. God being "forgiving" loses all meaning, then.
That's almost like the Hindus or Buddhists then who believe in God but that he is so separated and different from creation that there is no such thing as describing or comprehending him.
Well, what exactly would be the point of God REVEALING anything to mankind if He remains, ultimately, unknowable. God HAS MADE HIMSELF known.
---------------------------------------------
As for Islamic sources regarding lying:
1. Umm Kulthum bint 'Uqbah, may Allah be pleased with her, reported:
I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), as saying: He is not a liar who tries to bring reconciliation among people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or conveys good.
<b>Hadith number in Sahih Muslim [Arabic only]: 4717 </b>
2. <b>Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369: </b>
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it."
- <i>Here, Muhammad allows one of his followers to lie to another person</i>.
3. Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu'ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: <b><i>in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband </i></b>(in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them).
<b>Sahih Muslim, Hadith number 6303-05</b>
Is Lying Wrong or Not? - Deen - 03-03-2005
Our God is not a liar, in His nature, so why should or would it be okay for people to lie?
The concept is not confusing at all if one used their rationale.
As if it was confusing then it would be a mere thought not a concept.
Your above statement/question implies that you are using logical thought to say if god does not lie then why should people. This is where you make the mistake of comparing god with creation. God has nothing to do with lieing, as to even think he does not lie can be considered as blashpamey.
Someone can say "our god does not cry" so why would it be okay for people to cry? You see how ridicolous the argument can become.
The fact that we have the intellectual conviction in the belief in god means that god does not lie, otherwise he would not have the right to be called god. Good and bad does not apply to god as it is only applicable to humans, for which we will be held accountable. And it is god who tells us what is good and bad i.e. the criteria, this is a basic understanding.
How can hindus or buddhists say god is so seperated from creation that there is no such thing describing him when they have idols and statues to depict god?
I agree god is merciful, forgiving etc. but not in the way humans have or apply these attributes.
Does god love us the way you love your mother, father, wife or children? The description is the same as it is words which portray a meaning but we have to detach ourselves from thinking that our attributes are the same as god.
We can only comprehend his existance by looking at reality etc, not by philosophysing his appearance, actions or attributes.
How does one know god is merciful or loving or provider or protector etc?
This is because he has informed us of this and we leave it at that. How he does this is beyond our comprehension.
As for the evidences, the fact that Allah's messenger has said that he is not a liar who tries to bring reconciliation... is enough for us that it is not lieing, because Allah sets the criteria to what is lieing and what is not, not the oxford or cambridge dictionary.