Questions for Christians members II

Questions for Christians members II - Printable Version

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Questions for Christians members II - wel_mel_2 - 06-22-2006

Bismillah:

Since our Christians brothers believe that every word, action and comma in the Bible were inspired by God. Then I would like to ask the following questions:

Would a prophet, "a real prophet" do what Prophet Lot does in the Jewish narratives? (Drink wine and have sexual intercourse with his two daughters)? Was this inspired by God to His Prophet??? and what is the moral lesson that we might learn from such narration?

Would a real prophet arrange for a certain general to be killed so that he might have the man’s wife for himself, as David does in the Jewish texts? Was this too inspiration by God?

Would a real prophet use the basest of sexual language to describe a sinful and idolatrous nation as Eziekiel does in the Jewish texts? Were those words inspired by God?

You must remember that a prophet is someone through whom God’s word passes. To say that a real prophet would act the way many of the Jewish prophets have acted amounts to saying that God Almighty acts in that manner.

Salam

Wael.

Questions for Christians members II - reepicheep - 06-22-2006

Your question seems to be: do prophets commit sins?

Answer: All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

So, yes, Christians believe that all of the prophets were sinners.

With regards to the examples you give, I would like to point out that:

(1) I see nothing wrong with what Ezekiel wrote

(2) Christians don't consider Lot to be a prophet

(3) I don't think Christians consider David to be a prophet, either. But, yes, he was a sinner, as the bible clearly shows.

Questions for Christians members II - wel_mel_2 - 06-22-2006

Bismillah:

Quote:Your question seems to be: do prophets commit sins?

No, am talking about the morality, I don’t think that I will one day give those verses of (Incest) to my daughter to read. I don’t think that I will even give them to my wife to read. And I don’t know if you will give such verses to your household to read.

What I was trying to say here is, what is the moral that we can learn out of these stories??

Ok, to make it easy for you reep. Your Bible said:

All Scriptures is given by INSPIRATION of God, and it is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16

This is Pauls's second personal letter to his protege Timothy. The verse implies that if any scripture originates from God, it will prove profitable for.

1- Doctrine (TEACHING)

2- Reproof (for convicting, rebuking, for showing people what is wrong in their lives)

3- Correction (Useful for correcting faults)

4- Instruction unto righteousness ( for training and teaching how to live correctly)

The above for heading to categories God's word to be very reasonable.

Now Lot (whether he was a prophet or not) committed incest with his 2 daughters and God did not punish him at all. Now I would like to know, what is the moral that we learn from this story?? I say NO MORAL. So it is immoral.

Also Judah, commits incest with Tamar and begets twins who are honored to become the great grandfathers of the only "begotten son of God".. I ask again. What is the moral? NO moral.

Under what heading will you now put these stories???

Doctrine, reproof, correction or instruction unto righteousness????

Salam

Wael.

Questions for Christians members II - reepicheep - 06-22-2006

Why are you so obsessed with this story about Lot?

You will find that the following short article (written by a Muslim) answers most of your questions:

Lot and his Daughters - by AbdulraHman Lomax

Here are a few short excerpts:

Quote:The subject story does not betray any fault on the part of Lot...
I write in this topic because I find it offensive for Muslims to attempt to blacken the reputation of the Bible...

Alcohol was not fobidden in Lot's time; and we also do not know what Allah had revealed regarding what we now call incest...

If the man were conscious, we would call it incest. But if a daughter were to do something like this today, we would not call it incest...

As I see it, the ignominy of this story is mostly based in a projection of Qur'anic law backwards onto what came before. Lot committed no sin; perhaps the daughters were *also* free of sin, unless we can establish that they had been forbidden to conceive children by their father; we already know that alcohol was not forbidden until much later...

Questions for Christians members II - Curious Christian - 06-23-2006

Quote:Why are you so obsessed with this story about Lot?

You will find that the following short article (written by a Muslim) answers most of your questions:

Lot and his Daughters - by AbdulraHman Lomax

Here are a few short excerpts:

Wael,

Reep is right. Neither Lot nor David were Prophets. And they were all sinners. Moses was a sinner...all the prophets and saints are sinners. Paul of Tarsus himself commited horrible atrocities against Christians before his conversion on the road to Damascus. Even Prophets need Christ.

The Bible is about mankind and God and the relationship between the two. Of course you are going to see evidence of man's sin in the bible.

Further why should one believe what Mohammed wrote? Was he not a sinner? Did he live a perfect life? Did Satan not influence at least some of what he wrote?

Questions for Christians members II - wel_mel_2 - 06-23-2006

Bismillah:

Quote:Wael,
Reep is right. Neither Lot nor David were Prophets. And they were all sinners. Moses was a sinner...all the prophets and saints are sinners. Paul of Tarsus himself commited horrible atrocities against Christians before his conversion on the road to Damascus.

Do you guys understand my English? I wasn’t talking about any sinner here. This is not my topic. am talking about the moral that we may learn from such narrations and whether or not we can teach them to our young children.

Ok let me ask you this and am sure that you will give me as usual a very honest reply.

Will you allow your daughter to read some stories about a brother who rapes and commits incest with his sister? Will you allow your daughter to read another story of a son who commits incest and rapes his mothers wholesale? Will you allow her to read the story of a father who commits incest with his two daughters? Will you allow her to read or hear the story of a son (the son of Jacob) who commits incest with his mother? Will you let her read the story of sexual intercourse between father in law and his daughter in law? Will you let her read or hear the story of a brother who rapes his sister?

You know, my daughter masha’Allah is very smart and she’s only 3 years. If I told her that “Man after God's own heart" Commits adultery with Bath-sheba the wife of Uriah, she will tell me you are a liar.

I don’t know how you will give the book of Ezekiel chapter 23 to your daughter to read.

What kind of moral do we learn from those stories? I know that the Bible do not allowed these things. But I need to know is what is the moral?? If there is any.

Quote:Even Prophets need Christ

Why? There are many prophets and men who are PREFECT and BLAMELESS in the Bible. So why they need Christ? And they need him for what? To forgive their sins? What sins? They were PERFECT.

Certain verses in the Old Testament describe Noah as being a perfect and righteous person before God during his generation.. Genesis 6:9

Perfect means complete, innocent, having integrity… means sinless.

We can see that there were people who were considered perfect. We can also see that this word is used to describe the perfection of God's works...Deuteronomy 32:4

He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

How can the Bible say that Noah was a righteous and blameless person before the Lord during his generation when he goes around getting drunk and lying naked in his drunkenness? Either those verses about Noah being blameless are incorrect or the Bible simply has no problem with people getting drunk and lying naked in public.

By the way, even Job was called perfect and blameless. Means sinless.

Quote:The Bible is about mankind and God and the relationship between the two. Of course you are going to see evidence of man's sin in the bible.

Man’s sin is something and absurdities are something else. I cannot give my daughter to read some sexual relationship stories between father and daughter, son and mother, brother and sister etc…I cannot ask her to read to me some of Psalm narration where the private parts of women are mentioned and more… these are not God’s inspired words. Those are interpolations which made by man I believe.

Quote:Further why should one believe what Mohammed wrote? Was he not a sinner? Did he live a perfect life?

Muhammad pbuh was not a sinner in the sense that he intentionally disobeys God Almighty, but as human being he did some mistakes. And was forgiven by God. we consider all the Prophets of God as sinless human beings. 

Muhammad PBUH did live a perfect life as a prophet. And even non Muslims during his lifetime speaks of his excellent character and behavior.

Quote:Did Satan not influence at least some of what he wrote?

No. but if you got an example that Satan influences anything of what Muhammad pbuh said or did please let us know.

When you say "Muhammad pbuh wrote " you mean the Qur’an ?

Salam

Wael.

Questions for Christians members II - reepicheep - 06-23-2006

The koran clearly states that Mohammad was a sinner:

Quote:So know (O Muhammad) that there is no Allah save Allah, and ask forgiveness for thy sin and for believing men and believing women. Allah knoweth (both) your place of turmoil and your place of rest. Surah 47:19

This is confirmed by many hadith, for example:

Quote:Volume 1, Book 12, Number 711:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle used to keep silent between the Takbir and the recitation of Qur'an and that interval of silence used to be a short one. I said to the Prophet "May my parents be sacrificed for you! What do you say in the pause between Takbir and recitation?" The Prophet said, "I say, 'O Allah! Set me apart from my sins as the East and West are set apart from each other and clean me from sins as a white garment is cleaned of dirt. O Allah! Wash off my sins with water, snow and hail."

Here is another one:

Quote:Volume 8, Book 75, Number 379:
Narrated 'Aisha:

The Prophet used to say, "O Allah! I seek refuge with You from laziness and geriatric old age, from all kinds of sins and from being in debt; from the affliction of the Fire and from the punishment of the Fire and from the evil of the affliction of wealth; and I seek refuge with You from the affliction of poverty, and I seek refuge with You from the affliction of Al-Mesiah Ad-Dajjal. O Allah! Wash away my sins with the water of snow and hail, and cleanse my heart from all the sins as a white garment is cleansed from the filth, and let there be a long distance between me and my sins, as You made East and West far from each other."

Questions for Christians members II - wel_mel_2 - 06-23-2006

Bismillah:

Quote:The koran clearly states that Mohammad was a sinner:

Since the Prophet PBUH was an example to be followed by all humanity, then it’s only normal for him to ask for forgiveness so that we may learn the way how we should ask for forgiveness. It does not mean that he intended to disobey God by asking for His forgiveness, but to teach us the way HOW WE SHOULD ASK FOR ALLAH'S FORGIVNESS. 

And also it teaches us to be humble. he was the best of human creation and yet he humble himself to God and ask him for forgiveness, then who are we not to follow this great example and become humble before the Almighty God.

And also, doesn’t the Bible mention how Jesus used to "pray" to God? When he said "FORGIVE OUR SINS" ?? Does this mean that he was a sinner?

Salam

Wael.

Questions for Christians members II - reepicheep - 06-23-2006

Quote:Lo! We have given thee (O Muhammad) a signal victory, That Allah may forgive thee of thy sin that which is past and that which is to come, and may perfect His favour unto thee, and may guide thee on a right path, Surah 48:1-2 Pickthall

This passage from the koran clearly states that Mohammad committed sins in the past, and that he will commit more sins in the future.

Questions for Christians members II - wel_mel_2 - 06-23-2006

Bismillah:

Quote:This passage from the koran clearly states that Mohammad committed sings in hte past, and that he will commit more sins in the future.

Yeah I didn’t deny that he committed sins, but as I explained earlier, he did not intend to displease God or disobey Him. That’s why he was forgiven.

And by the way, doesn’t God of the OT punishes to death those who betray Him, while Jesus calls them "friends”?? Don’t you consider this as horrible sin?

Salam

Wael.