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Was Paul A Deceiver? - NewBeginning - 01-01-2007
http://www.answering-christianity.com/bass..._a_deciever.htm
Paul says...
2 Corinthians 12:16
Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty (panourgos) fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery (dolos)!
Paul refers to himself as a 'crafty' fellow. The word in Greek is panourgos, which could mean...
1) skilful, clever
a) in a good sense, fit to undertake and accomplish anything, dexterous, wise, sagacious, skilful
B) in a bad sense, crafty, cunning, knavish, treacherous, deceitful
Source: http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/wor...69110-6606.html
Obviously Christians will tend to go for definition 'a', which states that it is cleverness in a good sense. However, when we read the rest of the verse...
Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty (panourgos) fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery (dolos)!
The word for trickery here is dolos, which could mean...
1) craft, deceit, guile
Source: http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/wor...69203-1025.html
This word is always used in a negative way...
Matthew 26:4
and they plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly (dolos) way and kill him.
Mark 7:22
greed, malice, deceit (dolos) lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
Mark 14:1
Now the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread were only two days away, and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some sly (dolos) way to arrest Jesus and kill him.
John 1:47
When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false (dolos)."
Acts 13:10
"You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit (dolos) and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord?
Romans 1:29
They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit (dolos) and malice. They are gossips,
1 Thessalonians 2:3
For the appeal we make does not spring from error or impure motives, nor are we trying to trick (dolos) you.
1 Peter 2:1
Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit (dolos) , hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.
1 Peter 2:22
"He committed no sin, and no deceit (dolos) was found in his mouth."
1 Peter 3:10
For, "Whoever would love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful (dolos) speech.
Revelation 14:5
No lie (dolos) was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
As we can see this word is always being used negatively. This is the very thing that Paul claimed to have done. Does this make Paul guilty of deception? Jesus himself says in Mark 7:22 that it is a sin and that it is something that makes someone unclean from inside (verse 23).
Was Paul A Deceiver? - Teh_Curious - 01-01-2007
Sed esto ego vos non gravavi sed cum essem astutus dolo vos cepi
But be it so: I did not burthen you: but being crafty, I caught you by guile.
kinda a weird thing to bring up as many believe these letters are forgeries and its not a major part of our doctrine
His references to Jesus' teaching are likewise sparse: that against divorce (1 Cor 7:10-16), the commandment to love one another (Romans 13:8-10, Gal 5:14), and the commandment against idolatry;[1] raising the question, still disputed, as to how consistent his account of the faith is with that of the four canonical Gospels, Acts, and the Epistle of James. Nevertheless, he provides the first written account of the relationship of the Christian to the Risen Christ - what it is to be a Christian - and of Christian spirituality.
Paul's influence on Christian thinking has, arguably, been more significant than any other single New Testament author. His influence on the main strands of Christian thought have been massive, from St. Augustine of Hippo to the controversies between Gottschalk and Hincmar of Reims, between Thomism and Molinism, Martin Luther, Calvin and the Arminians, Jansenism and the Jesuit theologians and even to the German church of the twentieth century through the writings of the scholar Karl Barth, whose commentary on the Letter to the Romans had a political as well theological impact.
Was Paul A Deceiver? - NewBeginning - 01-02-2007
LOL. So now in this thread, aside from the 101 contradictions thread..... your excuse is that this is a forgery? Your defense of your Bible verse, is to say that your Bible is a forgery?
I indeed rest my case. :D
Was Paul A Deceiver? - Teh_Curious - 01-02-2007
not at all
1stly i dont need any defence, through my peoples desire to improve themselves we have reached a certain level of understanding of different races, ill be the first to admit christianity had a era that were not proud of but we have striven to better ourselves.
2ndly the bible is nothing more than a guide to understand the will of god, and how we as christians should act. Its written by people with all their flaws, who have experienced divine insperation to serve God, as a case example the Paul of Tarsus whom you have quoted above, basically hunted down and persecuted christians, untill confronted by god. even after his conversion he was treated with suspicion from those he persecuted but through his works and faith he achieved saint hood.
3rdly there is little evidence that the letters to cointhians are genuine, i looked them up in the bible i have here with me and they are not in it.
Was Paul A Deceiver? - Teh_Curious - 01-02-2007
if you want to understand my faith read "the poem of the man god" its quite concise
Was Paul A Deceiver? - Faith Hope Charity - 01-03-2007
Hi Shaunee,
You will not get an answer unless you ask a question.
I hope that during your stay here, you will teach me about Islam as you learn about true Christianity.
In regards to your theory that St Paul, the Apostle handpicked by Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was a deceiver to the Church in Corinth, I say this...
Actually, before I say anything, let me state the verse in its correct context:
"I will most glady spend and be spent for your souls. If I love you the more, am I to be loved the less? But granting that I myself did not burden you, I was crafty, <b>you say</b>, and got the better of you by guile. Did I take advantage of you through any of those whom I sent you?" (2 Cor 12:15-16 RSV).
Enough said?
In case you need clarification... Catholics will opt for 'B' - the bad sense, because if we opt for 'A' - the positive use of the word, it will distort St Paul's message to his flock.
My advice to you - do not approach the Holy Bible with a personal agenda because if you do, you will not be able to appreciate & understand the beauty & truth of it.
Salam Sister :peace:
Faith Hope Charity Openness Tolerance Equality
Was Paul A Deceiver? - PUPPET - 01-03-2007
The same as people posting against Muhammed SAW, it is disrespectfull to call Paul a deceiver.
Was Paul A Deceiver? - Faith Hope Charity - 01-03-2007
Quote:The same as people posting against Muhammed SAW, it is disrespectfull to call Paul a deceiver.
It's all right, PUPPET. She used the form of a question, so we'll let her get away with it this time - hehe! No doubt her intentions were good. I hope she's satisfied with the answer.
It's past midnight in Sydney. I think I'm addicted to IslamMessage.
Good Night Cresent & Star :)
Was Paul A Deceiver? - NewBeginning - 01-04-2007
:) Obviously Christians will tend to go for definition 'a', which states that it is cleverness in a good sense. However, when we read the rest of the verse...
Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty (panourgos) fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery (dolos)!
The word for trickery here is dolos, which could mean...
1) craft, deceit, guile
Source: http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/wor...69203-1025.html
This word is always used in a negative way...
Matthew 26:4
and they plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly (dolos) way and kill him.
Mark 7:22
greed, malice, deceit (dolos) lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
Mark 14:1
:D
Was Paul A Deceiver? - NewBeginning - 01-04-2007
Puppet,
You see how things are? If a person can't take it, why dish it out? This is a non-muslim board, but it is within a MUSLIM FORUM. I wonder, if people do not like Muhammed(saws), Islam, or respect the Quran, why spend so much time here? lol.