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FHC is happy for those who disbelieve??? - wel_mel_2 - 02-08-2007
Bismillah:
Assalamo ALikum FHC…
On the other thread of (20 more revert to Islam) you have stated that:
Quote:As I'm sure you're all aware by now, I'm quite happy for anyone to freely convert/revert to whatever faith they believe is right for them...
How can you be happy for Non Christians people while you believe without a doubt that salvation can be attained only through Jesus pbuh?
Will you be happy for their punishment? please clarify...
Salam
Wael.
FHC is happy for those who disbelieve??? - Faith Hope Charity - 02-08-2007
Glory to the Word made flesh!
May the peace of Jesus Christ be with you!
Quote:Assalamo ALikum FHC…
Thanks! Wa alakum al salam!
Quote:How can you be happy for Non Christians people while you believe without a doubt that salvation can be attained only through Jesus pbuh?
You're not going to like what I have to say, Wael, but I've decided not to suppress my honest opinion just to spare your feelings...
It's only through Jesus Christ that we ALL receive salvation. His sacrifice was for ALL humanity, not exclusively for His followers. By His Life, Death & Resurrection, sin was destroyed & the gates of Heaven were opened for ALL people (past, present, future). ALL of us will stand before Him & be judged accordingly.
Quote:Will you be happy for their punishment? please clarify...
It's God's will that all souls reach Heaven & that's precisely what I pray for every night! We're supposed to love one another as Christ loves us, therefore, I wish upon others what I wish upon myself - a life full of grace.
I wouldn't do this topic justice unless I quote from the Catechism - JP2 (RIP) was way more diplomatic than I'll ever be!
"Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery (Life, Death & Resurrection of Jesus Christ). Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of His Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity" - CCC 1260).
My Jesus, My Lord, My God, I adore You, I place all my trust in You, I love You with all my heart, & I give myself to You.
<i>Faith Hope Charity Openness Tolerance Equality</i>
FHC is happy for those who disbelieve??? - wel_mel_2 - 02-09-2007
Bismillah:
Assalamo Alikum.
Quote:You're not going to like what I have to say, Wael, but I've decided not to suppress my honest opinion just to spare your feelings...
No don’t worry; I’ve heard this thousands of times.
Quote:It's only through Jesus Christ that we ALL receive salvation. His sacrifice was for ALL humanity, not exclusively for His followers. By His Life, Death & Resurrection, sin was destroyed & the gates of Heaven were opened for ALL people (past, present, future). ALL of us will stand before Him & be judged accordingly.
Ok, this is what I normally hear from Christians, and that’s why I was surprise to hear from you that <b>you are happy for anyone who is going to embrace any other faith</b>… you should not be happy for this at all, because you know well that they are going to be in hell… so am not sure <b>for what reason will you be happy for Non Christians? </b>
Quote:It's God's will that all souls reach Heaven & that's precisely what I pray for every night! We're supposed to love one another as Christ loves us, therefore, I wish upon others what I wish upon myself - a life full of grace.
No doubt. But according to your teaching, <b>ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN unless we believe in Jesus as lord and savior</b>… so the question arises again <b>why you are happy for those who are not of your faith? And are your fellow Christians with their more than 1000 sects are going to be saved on the condition that they belive in Jesus as lord and savior? Or only Catholics are going to heaven and the rest is lost???</b>
Salam
Wael
FHC is happy for those who disbelieve??? - Faith Hope Charity - 02-09-2007
In the Name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit.
Peace be with you brothers & sisters!
Quote:Ok, this is what I normally hear from Christians, and that’s why I was surprise to hear from you that <b>you are happy for anyone who is going to embrace any other faith</b>… you should not be happy for this at all, because you know well that they are going to be in hell… so am not sure <b>for what reason will you be happy for Non Christians? </b>
No doubt. But according to your teaching, <b>ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN unless we believe in Jesus as lord and savior</b>… so the question arises again <b>why you are happy for those who are not of your faith? And are your fellow Christians with their more than 1000 sects are going to be saved on the condition that they belive in Jesus as lord and savior? Or only Catholics are going to heaven and the rest is lost???</b>
Take two...
Jesus Christ died for ALL without exception, not only for the elect.
Heaven is accessible for Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Pagans, e.t.c., alike, because Christ takes away the sins of the WORLD!
Those who do not profess belief in Christ, yet live according to the Natural Moral Law, will be saved. God's Law is written in every human heart. Since God is Goodness itself & goodness comes from God, anyone who performs good works receives necessary graces to grant them entrance into Heaven.
Having said that, without Jesus Christ's work of redemption, Heaven would've been off limits for everyone. Therefore, it's only through Jesus Christ (whether one realizes it or not) that they're awarded eternal life in God's Kingdom.
On a personal level, it's hard for me without the Sacraments. I wouldn't want to be without them!
Protestant Christians teach that faith in the Jesus Christ - Son of God & Messiah - is absolutely essential. The truth is, it's preferred but not vital for man's salvation.
You obviously didn't understand the passage from the Catechism. Please re-read it, Wael!
God bless.
FHC is happy for those who disbelieve??? - wel_mel_2 - 02-09-2007
Quote:In the Name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit.
Peace be with you brothers & sisters!
Take two...
Jesus Christ died for ALL without exception, not only for the elect.
Heaven is accessible for Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Pagans, e.t.c., alike, because Christ takes away the sins of the WORLD!
Those who do not profess belief in Christ, yet live according to the Natural Moral Law, will be saved. God's Law is written in every human heart. Since God is Goodness itself & goodness comes from God, anyone who performs good works receives necessary graces to grant them entrance into Heaven.
Having said that, without Jesus Christ's work of redemption, Heaven would've been off limits for everyone. Therefore, it's only through Jesus Christ (whether one realizes it or not) that they're awarded eternal life in God's Kingdom.
On a personal level, it's hard for me without the Sacraments. I wouldn't want to be without them!
Protestant Christians teach that faith in the Jesus Christ - Son of God & Messiah - is absolutely essential. The truth is, it's preferred but not vital for man's salvation.
You obviously didn't understand the passage from the Catechism. Please re-read it, Wael!
God bless.
That makes me more confuse :blink:
Heaven is accessible for everyone yet <b>no one can attain salvation except through Jesus</b>, then how Muslims are going to heaven (with thier good works and deeds) without believing in Jesus as lord and savior? please support your answer with some Biblical verses?
And so, my question remained unanswered.. I don’t know why are you happy for those who rejected Jesus’ divinity while you are 100% sure that they are NOT not going to be saved.
Salam
Wael.
FHC is happy for those who disbelieve??? - Faith Hope Charity - 02-10-2007
Glory to God in the highest, peace on earth, & goodwill to all.
Take three...
Quote:Heaven is accessible for everyone yet <b>no one can attain salvation except through Jesus</b>, then how Muslims are going to heaven (with thier good works and deeds) without believing in Jesus as lord and savior? please support your answer with some Biblical verses?
And so, my question remained unanswered.. I don’t know why are you happy for those who rejected Jesus’ divinity while you are 100% sure that they are NOT not going to be saved.
Salam Wael,
Hopefully, these paragraphs taken straight out of the <i>Catechism of the Catholic Church</i> will help make things clear :)
The Church and non-Christians
841 - The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
847 - Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
He died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures
601 - The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of "the righteous one, my Servant" as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin (Isaiah 53:11; cf. 53:12; St John 8:34-36; Acts 3:14). Citing a confession of faith that he himself had "received", St. Paul professes that "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures" (1 Corinthians 15:3; cf. also Acts 3:18; 7:52; 13:29; 26:22-23). In particular Jesus' redemptive death fulfills Isaiah's prophecy of the suffering Servant (cf. Isaiah 53:7-8 and Acts 8:32-35). Indeed Jesus himself explained the meaning of his life and death in the light of God's suffering Servant (cf. St Matthew 20:28). After his Resurrection he gave this interpretation of the Scriptures to the disciples at Emmaus, and then to the apostles (cf. St Luke 24:25-27, 44-45).
602 - Consequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: "You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers. . . with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake" (1 St Peter 1:18-20). Man's sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death (cf Romans 5:12; 1 Corinthians 15:56). By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God "made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Corinthians 5:21; cf. Philippians 2:5-7; Romans 8:3).
603 - Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned (cf. St John 8:46). But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (St Mark 15:34; Psalms 22:2; cf. St John 8:29). Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God "did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all", so that we might be "reconciled to God by the death of his Son" (Romans 8:32, 5:10).
604 - By giving up his own Son for our sins, God manifests that his plan for us is one of benevolent love, prior to any merit on our part: "In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins" (1 St John 4:10; 4:19).
605 - At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God's love excludes no one: "So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish" (St Matthew 18:14). He affirms that he came "to give his life as a ransom for many"; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us (St Matthew 20:28; cf. Romans 5:18-19). The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: "There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer" (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 John 2:22).
Christ's death is the unique and definitive sacrifice
614 - This sacrifice of Christ is unique; it completes and surpasses all other sacrifices (cf Hebrews 10:10). First, it is a gift from God the Father himself, for the Father handed his Son over to sinners in order to reconcile us with himself. At the same time it is the offering of the Son of God made man, who in freedom and love offered his life to his Father through the Holy Spirit in reparation for our disobedience (cf. St John 10:17-18; 15:13; Hebrews 9:14; 1 St John 4:10).
615 - "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous" (Romans 5:19). By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who "makes himself an offering for sin", when "he bore the sin of many", and who "shall make many to be accounted righteous", for "he shall bear their iniquities"(Isaiah 53:10-12). Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.
616 - It is love "to the end" (St John 13:1) that confers on Christ's sacrifice its value as redemption and reparation, as atonement and satisfaction. He knew and loved us all when he offered his life (cf. Galatians 2:20; Ephesians 5:2, 25). Now "the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died" (2 Corinthians 5:14). No man, not even the holiest, was ever able to take on himself the sins of all men and offer himself as a sacrifice for all. The existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons, and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all.
617 - The Council of Trent emphasizes the unique character of Christ's sacrifice as "the source of eternal salvation" (Hebrews 5:9) and teaches that "his most holy Passion on the wood of the cross merited justification for us."450 And the Church venerates his cross as she sings: "Hail, O Cross, our only hope".
My dearest Wael, I hope that does it for you, bro! As you can see, the Church's teachings NEVER contradict Scripture, but rather, they go hand in hand. I'm sure the above texts won't have the same impact on you as they have on me (Alhamdililah), but I hope you'll be able to understand our position better now :) I just ask for one insy winsy favour... please take the time out to read everything properly! Don't be lazy & skim through it all - hehe!
God bless,
Your sister in Christ... FHC :)
FHC is happy for those who disbelieve??? - wel_mel_2 - 02-11-2007
Bismillah:
Assalamo Alikum and thanks for your time in answering my questions, but there are still many remains :D
Quote:Hopefully, these paragraphs taken straight out of the Catechism of the Catholic Church will help make things clear
i was hoping to see some biblical verses as well.
Quote:841 - The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
Ok now this paragraph depends entirely on author’s intention and his definition of the word “the Creator”… does he mean that God Almighty the Creator <b>who is NOT JESUS CHRIST</b>? <b>Does he mean that Jesus is NOT THE CREATOR??? </b>
So my question again, if we Muslims do acknowledge The Creator, but also believe that Jesus Christ pbuh have nothing to do with this Creation, <b>will we still be included in the plan of salvation? </b>
And if we will be excluded, will you still be happy for those who are not Christians?
Quote:847 - Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
Like those who were born and died before the advent of Christ? Ok this is another issue, now we believe in Christ as you know but in a dfferent way, so will we be saved in this case?
The rest of the paragraphs doesn’t really explain what you meant in your statement that you are happy for those who are not of your faith and believe that their religion is right for them. also in one of your posts you even said that you don’t care whether this person is a Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu or whatever, <b>as long as his faith brings him closer to God</b>!!! From where did you get this sort of beliefs? Is this your personal opinion or the Bible promotes such thing?
Quote:My dearest Wael, I hope that does it for you, bro! As you can see, the Church's teachings NEVER contradict Scripture, but rather, they go hand in hand.
So is there any passage from the Bible that matches with the first paragraph that you quoted for example? And why you quote only from the catechism and not directly from the Bible <b>If both go hand in hand as you claimed</b>?
Quote:please take the time out to read everything properly! Don't be lazy & skim through it all - hehe!
Ok… :D
Salam
Wael.
FHC is happy for those who disbelieve??? - Faith Hope Charity - 02-11-2007
In the Name of God - Creator Redeemer Sanctifier.
Quote:Assalamo Alikum and thanks for your time in answering my questions, but there are still many remains :D
Wa alykum al salam & you're very welcome, but if you're serious about learning the faith, there are more qualified apologists you can seek answers from on Catholic forums. I'm just an amateur compared to them :D
Quote:i was hoping to see some biblical verses as well.
I included the Biblical references for you in brackets.
Quote:So my question again, if we Muslims do acknowledge The Creator, but also believe that Jesus Christ pbuh have nothing to do with this Creation, <b>will we still be included in the plan of salvation? </b>
Most definitely!!!
Quote:And if we will be excluded, will you still be happy for those who are not Christians?
No one's excluded. God's plan of salvation includes every human being created by God & for God. I get upset when I think of those who freely choose evil over good & separate themselves from God.
Quote:Like those who were born and died before the advent of Christ? Ok this is another issue, now we believe in Christ as you know but in a dfferent way, so will we be saved in this case?
Everybody will be judged according to their deeds. With or without religion, humans are capable of discerning between good & evil. We have a duty to form our conscience properly though, so remaining ignorant has its downside. God can read our hearts.
Quote:The rest of the paragraphs doesn’t really explain what you meant in your statement that you are happy for those who are not of your faith and believe that their religion is right for them. also in one of your posts you even said that you don’t care whether this person is a Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu or whatever, <b>as long as his faith brings him closer to God</b>!!! From where did you get this sort of beliefs? Is this your personal opinion or the Bible promotes such thing?
So is there any passage from the Bible that matches with the first paragraph that you quoted for example? And why you quote only from the catechism and not directly from the Bible <b>If both go hand in hand as you claimed</b>?
Think of the Catechism as our manual ;) I highly recommend you read the Bible but don't develop a habit of misinterpreting passages at your convenience. There's a Scriptural Index at the back of the Catechism where you can look up certain verses & their corresponding paragraphs to learn how the Church applies Scripture in Catholicism.
In the book of 'Romans', St Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, deals with salvation of Christians & non-Christians.
Carry on being a good Muslim, Wael! Insh a Allah, we'll be worthy enough to meet one day in Heaven :)
FHC is happy for those who disbelieve??? - wel_mel_2 - 02-13-2007
Bismillah:
Quote:So my question again, if we Muslims do acknowledge The Creator, but also believe that Jesus Christ pbuh have nothing to do with this Creation, will we still be included in the plan of salvation?
Most definitely!!!
Doesn’t your answer completely contradicts John 3:16??? How will we be included in the plan of salvation without believing in Jesus as God, son of God etc..) ???
Quote:Everybody will be judged according to their deeds. With or without religion, humans are capable of discerning between good & evil. We have a duty to form our conscience properly though, so remaining ignorant has its downside. God can read our hearts.
So the idea of <b>“unless you believe in Jesus as your personal Savior and Lord” </b> is false since we are not going to be judged according to our faith??… Now we’ve come to the conclusion that even an Atheist can easily attain salvation if his deeds are good and there is no need for him to believe in God at all. !!!!!
Again, I do not understand how am I going to be in heaven with you if I did not believe entirely in the concept of salvation through Jesus’ blood?
Salam
Wael.
FHC is happy for those who disbelieve??? - Faith Hope Charity - 02-13-2007
In the Name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit.
Quote:Doesn’t your answer completely contradicts John 3:16??? How will we be included in the plan of salvation without believing in Jesus as God, son of God etc..) ???
Wael, you're so cute! Honestly, you're like a little kid who I just wanna hug & reassure that everything's going to be all right. Mate, that passage confirms what I'm saying. Please read your selected verse within its boundaries. There are no one-liners in Scripture.
Quote:So the idea of <b>“unless you believe in Jesus as your personal Savior and Lord” </b> is false since we are not going to be judged according to our faith?
That idea is false in Catholicism, however, it's the central belief in Protestantism.
You'll be judged according to the Natural Moral Law which is universal, has God as its author, & is written on the heart of every man.
Quote:Now we’ve come to the conclusion that even an Atheist can easily attain salvation if his deeds are good and there is no need for him to believe in God at all. !!!!!
Those who habitually do good & avoid evil know God implicitly & are cooperating with His will. Mind you it's a lot harder to resist temptation when you're not a believer so I wouldn't recommend one remains in invincible ignorance.
Quote:Again, I do not understand how am I going to be in heaven with you if I did not believe entirely in the concept of salvation through Jesus’ blood?
Put it this way... God = Goodness... therefore, if you strive for human perfection, live morally, & are able to go to bed night after night with a clear conscience, you're in God's good books :)
I learnt something so amazingly profound in class tonight... "The Son of God became Man to save us from sin, not to save us from the consequences of sin". See if you can figure that one out, wise guy ;)
May the Peace of Christ be with you always!